New FA performance restrictions ???

[bill gillespie]

Over on the FA/FB consolidation post, a member of the CRB stated a little nugget to Crowe Composites , in the form of a return letter..It was stated that they were trimming down the the performance envelope of FA to align with the FB performance envelope..

Thats a big no from me, and yes I can write a useless letter, or vote with my checkbook......
Any other FA guys heard this , or have an opinion ? Wonder if they will also adjust their New F3 car performance

?Flame away,
Bill

[Garey Guzman]

The whole paragraph with my highlighting:
The loosening of the restrictions on the intake and ECU is not expected to result in significant performance improvements in FB cars, but it is anticipated that these changes will permit additional motorcycle engines to be used, since the “stock” ECUs (which have proven incompatible with car installations) will no longer be required. Although FB cars are not expected to have significant performance improvements, they have already proven that they can perform within the FA envelope, and FA performance is currently in the process of being trimmed back. The BoD, CRB, and FSRAC believe these changes will provide an excellent platform for a healthy, competitive FA class going forward.

Sounds to me like two separate things although I wonder what FA trimming is underway.

[mikey]

I wonder if they want to tighten the group of various Swift 08/14/16 and PFM (which has consistently been disadvantaged). This could make for more competitive FA racing with larger fields.

[S Lathrop]

At one time the Toyota engine of the RT 41, 08 and 014 Swifts were the performance standards of the class. Now if you don't have a 016 with a 300 ++ hp Mazda you are out of the game. And the 016 is the only car that it is legal to have that engine. What is that telling everyone?

[Dee]

the rt 41 was powered by a Toyota 1600

[Stan Clayton]

At one time the Honda engine of the RT 41, 08 and 014 Swifts were the performance standards of the class. Now if you don't have a 016 with a 300 ++ hp Mazda you are out of the game. And the 016 is the only car that it is legal to have that engine. What is that telling everyone?

Not quite, Steve. Any FA can run the 2.3 Mazda/Duratec...same max 14:1 CR, but 32mm SIR at 1345 lbs instead of the 016's 33mm SIR at 1420 lbs.

[S Lathrop]

Not quite, Steve. Any FA can run the 2.3 Mazda/Duratec...same max 14:1 CR, but 32mm SIR at 1345 lbs instead of the 016's 33mm SIR at 1420 lbs.

Thanks Stan. I stand corrected. But the Honda is no longer competitive? The goal posts have been moved.

[Stan Clayton]

I wonder if they want to tighten the group of various Swift 08/14/16 and PFM (which has consistently been disadvantaged). This could make for more competitive FA racing with larger fields.

The PFMs never received performance adjustments because up to last year they had a pro venue to race in, and SCCA didn't want to be seen as trying to peel off competitors. Now that they're orphaned cars we can expect to see some adjustments.

[bill gillespie]

Thanks Stan. I stand corrected. But the Honda is no longer competitive? The goal posts have been moved.

with respect Steve, Honda was never a mainstream FA engine....I only know of the Novaks running one in an O14 for@ year...

[bill gillespie]

The PFMs never received performance adjustments because up to last year they had a pro venue to race in, and SCCA didn't want to be seen as trying to peel off competitors. Now that they're orphaned cars we can expect to see some adjustments.

hey Stan....Who is the “we” you are referring to ?.....I thought you had been out of FA for some time...???

[Jnovak]

with respect Steve, Honda was never a mainstream FA engine....I only know of the Novaks running one in an O14 for@ year...

2 seasons but the reality is we were not competitive as we had to use the stock crate motor.

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks Stan. I stand corrected. But the Honda is no longer competitive? The goal posts have been moved.

Hi Steve, if by Honda you mean the Toyota 4AGE 1615cc that was standard in the Ralt 40/41, and Swift 008/014, then yes I think they are at somewhat of a disadvantage to the Swift 016 with the 2.3L MZR. In the other thread about the pending FA/FB merger I referred to data showing the 016 had a measurable advantage over the lesser cars and opined that I was hoping for a performance adjustment for the 016.

That said, I'm no longer on the CRB/FSRAC and don't have any insider info. Still, the CRB has been actively employing balance of performance measures in FA for several years now so I will not be surprised if they take measures to pull the 016 back to the pack a bit. Time will tell.

[Stan Clayton]

hey Stan....Who is the “we” you are referring to ?.....I thought you had been out of FA for some time...???

The "we" is the collective FA community...Ralts, Swifts, PFMs, etc., of which I am a member. After all, I still have my Ralt and hope to race it again one day. It's a beautiful and fast car that deserves a place at the table.

Plus, we own Stohr and plan to come out with an updated Stohr FA/FB this year. IMO the current pro cars need to stay in their pro configuration, even if that means they're disadvantaged, but IMO the rest of us should play on an even field.

[bill gillespie]

The "we" is the collective FA community...Ralts, Swifts, PFMs, etc., of which I am a member. After all, I still have my Ralt and hope to race it again one day. It's a beautiful and fast car that deserves a place at the table.

Plus, we own Stohr and plan to come out with an updated Stohr FA/FB this year. IMO the current pro cars need to stay in their pro configuration, even if that means they're disadvantaged, but IMO the rest of us should play on an even field.

noted: you have a vested/financial interest in slowing FA down to FB speed...But, what is a current pro car ? If you are referring to the current F3 America car, are you also proposing to slow it to FB also? Just curious, snark aside...
bill

[Stan Clayton]

noted: you have a vested/financial interest in slowing FA down to FB speed...But, what is a current pro car ? If you are referring to the current F3 America car, are you also proposing to slow it to FB also? Just curious, snark aside...
bill

Of course I have a vested/financial interest in the class(es), as do you. And I want my cars to be fully competitive with the other marques/models in the class.

Are you suggesting your car should retain some inherent advantage over the competition?

[bill gillespie]

Of course I have a vested/financial interest in the class(es), as do you. And I want my cars to be fully competitive with the other marques/models in the class.

Are you suggesting your car should retain some inherent advantage over the competition?

FB was never intended to be my, or your, FA competition, Stan........but, no, I don’t think FA should be slowed down to support your business model....disingenuous much ?

[Stan Clayton]

FB was never intended to be my, or your, FA competition, Stan........but, no, I don’t think FA should be slowed down to support your business model....disingenuous much ?

I agree whole heartedly, Bill, which is why I requested FB be brought into FA on a competitive basis, and why I think the 016 needs to be brought back to the FA baseline (whatever the CRB thinks that is).

That said, FA used to have 5.0L V-8 engines, while FB had 1.6L 4-cyl engines...until the 1983 Runoffs, when just 5 FAs showed up and only 3 made it past half-way, completing the race. So there is a LOOOOOONG history of SCCA adjusting the classes to make them work.

[Stan Clayton]

Oops...meant to add that after the '83 Runoffs the V-8s in FA were discontinued and FB was moved up to replace the V-8s in FA. They were even renamed FA. I'm NOT suggesting we again replace FA with FB, but since the last purpose-built FA was made a decade ago that the FB cars should be brought in on an equal footing to help secure the future of the FA class.

[Bob Corliss]

Agree completely. None of this seems to make any sense. Pretending to "equalize" cars by manipulating ECU creates more problems than it solves. I understand the problem with regard to Class Survival but the solution is not to try putting a square peg in a round hole.

Both FA and FB need to focus on their respective classes and figure out why more cars are sitting on the sidelines instead of racing.

In the case of FA cars, there are approximately 200 cars that use the TRD 1.6 liter motor and we are working diligently to provide a cost effective and sustainable solution for all of those cars to have those motors available this season. There is another thread under FA Registry that is aggregating owners and communicating progress.

Final thought; mass matters, as does construction material, and build quality. Putting vastly different formula class cars on the track at the same time flies in the face of Safety First.

Bob Corliss
Swift 14a

Over on the FA/FB consolidation post, a member of the CRB stated a little nugget to Crowe Composites , in the form of a return letter..It was stated that they were trimming down the the performance envelope of FA to align with the FB performance envelope..

Thats a big no from me, and yes I can write a useless letter, or vote with my checkbook......
Any other FA guys heard this , or have an opinion ? Wonder if they will also adjust their New F3 car performance

?Flame away,
Bill

[Bob Corliss]

Stan, two new Swift 16 chassis (dba Atlantic Creations) were built within the past five years. Although there has not been any attempt to market, Atlantic Creations has all of the Swift 8/14/16 assets to manufacture a new chassis if desired. Arguably, we have enough chassis out there now, need to get them on the track.

And I cannot find any record of FA ever running a V8 motor. Would be interested in learning more about that if you can shed more light. Thanks.

Bob Corliss
Swift 14a

Oops...meant to add that after the '83 Runoffs the V-8s in FA were discontinued and FB was moved up to replace the V-8s in FA. They were even renamed FA. I'm NOT suggesting we again replace FA with FB, but since the last purpose-built FA was made a decade ago that the FB cars should be brought in on an equal footing to help secure the future of the FA class.

[J Leonard]

I ran in a group with F5000/FA cars at Laguna 1978 ish. Give the 016 back to Champ Car, get rid of 1800's and make all FA run 1600cc. I'm sure lots of cars out there with 1600's. Somebody says hundreds of Atlantics out there 99.9 % 1600?

[Stan Clayton]

Stan, two new Swift 16 chassis (dba Atlantic Creations) were built within the past five years. Although there has not been any attempt to market, Atlantic Creations has all of the Swift 8/14/16 assets to manufacture a new chassis if desired. Arguably, we have enough chassis out there now, need to get them on the track.

And I cannot find any record of FA ever running a V8 motor. Would be interested in learning more about that if you can shed more light. Thanks.

Bob Corliss
Swift 14a

Bob, here is a short article about them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formul...#North_America

I have a 70's GCR that has all the specs, but can't find it this morning.

History of Formula Atlantic (not quite the same thing as "FA"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_Atlantic

Short history of the FB-to-FA transition: https://www.oldracingcars.com/fb/

[sprocketmensch]

I suggest both FA and FB drivers weigh in on this. As it stands we will have FA and FB together next year unless we state our opinions. 016's will be slowed down, FBs will be sped up. Virtually impossible (IMHO) to create a level and safe playing field here.

Letter ID Number: #26214 Title: Do not merge FB into FA, pleaseClass: FBRequest: Board members,
I respectfully request that you do not merge FB into FA. As an active FB driver, and NE Conference FB champion for 2018, I do not believe this will further the health of either class. FB's low Majors numbers in 2018 were primarily driven by our decision to run NAF1000 races at SCCA regionals to try to get more time and our own race groups. While only partially successful, it seems to have run afoul of your decision to count only Majors participation. This year we will be running our races at Majors so this won't be an issue. Although it seems like you have already cast the dye for us, I would ask that this be reconsidered.

I moved from FM to FB when it was clear that FM numbers were never going to come back in the northeast. FB allows me to run a modern racecar with an inexpensive engine in a class where spending more money is not an indicator of speed or ability to be at the front.

We already run with FA in all races - Majors, regionals, etc and even at last years runoffs. Having run with them for years now, it is clear to me that we cannot compete with a well prepped Swift 016 nor would I want to. The additional mass of that car, even if slowed down to FB speeds, makes it incompatible as a direct competitor as I know I would be the loser if we both went for the same corner and were to come together.

The suggestion to allow built engines and larger engines in FB will only mean a dollars race for the engine of the week - exactly what I wanted to avoid by entering this class. Currently the Kawis and Suzukis are virtually on par. The only engine which had an advantage was JR Osbornes runoffs engine which was disallowed. I do not want to have to spend two to three times the cost on built engines and an engine race which will only get worse each year. Let the class stay competitive within itself and lets come up with measured rules which will allow newer 1000cc engines to enter the class with restrictions which keep the older engines competitive. I support an open ECU and perhaps a rev limiter and/or weight adjustment for newer engines.

FB is one of the few formula classes which is adding new cars every year. Currently JDR, Firman, Griip, Philly Motorsports, and Stohr are making new cars for the class. Phoenix, Astra, Citation etc will also produce cars on demand. FA has not had a new purpose built car for over 10 years. Keeping FB as its own class will promote more cars coming out on track. The only loss may be not enough cars for a runoffs class. I am willing to accept this if it will mean better competition all year long at Majors, regionals, and super tour events.

Many of us cannot make the time or spend the money to do the runoffs. I live in NY and I hope to this year as its at VIR but likely will never make one where the drive is over 1000 miles. Yet I actively compete at events all over the east coast and some in the midwest and south. I do not want those compromised for the sake of a runoffs class at a single event.

Last year FA and FB ran together at the runoffs. I don't see why this re-classing FB as FA would make this any better, add any cars, or help competition. It will only guarantee that most FB's won't even try for the runoffs knowing how futile and dangerous it would be. It will also cause FB drivers to have to choose if they want to run an independent series or stay in SCCA with a different rule set- not a choice I'd like to have.

While it may be reasonable to re-look at the FB ruleset for engines to ensure the continued health of the class, I urge you to do this by polling the active FB drivers and constructors, and not act without that measured input. Please do not act in haste and destroy one of the truly exciting and growing classes within open wheel.

In conclusion, I ask that the board stay its decision to merge FB into FA until data from the 2019 season can be seen and input from FB drivers and constructors can be heard.

Yours,
Doug Hertz

You can cross post your thoughts on the FB forum

[Peter Ruggiero]

I believe a little clarification is required regarding the history of Formula Atlantic. FA is simple a convenient class abbreviation on the side of your race car. The original FA was the SCCA's version of F5000. This dates back to the 1960/70's when the SCCA had six formula classes, FA (5 litre), FB (1.6 litre), FC (1100cc), FSV, FF ad FV. Formula FA disappeared with the loss of the pro-series in the later half of the 1970's. FB which was dominated by March, Lola, Chevron, Ralt, and Brabham mostly using he FORD BDA engine eventually became FAtlantic with the advent of Toyota's participation in the pro series and the mandate of using the 1.6 litre Toyota.

[bill gillespie]

I believe a little clarification is required regarding the history of Formula Atlantic. FA is simple a convenient class abbreviation on the side of your race car. The original FA was the SCCA's version of F5000. This dates back to the 1960/70's when the SCCA had six formula classes, FA (5 litre), FB (1.6 litre), FC (1100cc), FSV, FF ad FV. Formula FA disappeared with the loss of the pro-series in the later half of the 1970's. FB which was dominated by March, Lola, Chevron, Ralt, and Brabham mostly using he FORD BDA engine eventually became FAtlantic with the advent of Toyota's participation in the pro series and the mandate of using the 1.6 litre Toyota.

Hey Peter....to fine tune your post a bit ..the Ford Cosworth BDA/BDD was the engine to have in SCCA FA, from 1980 til I think 87/88 when Toyota bought in....I know it was FA from 1980 forward, but unsure prior to that...

[Pi_guy]

Hey Peter....to fine tune your post a bit ..the Ford Cosworth BDA/BDD was the engine to have in SCCA FA, from 1980 til I think 87/88 when Toyota bought in....I know it was FA from 1980 forward, but unsure prior to that...

1976 runoffs FA was won by March with a BDA.

I was told it was FA but just looked in archives and it was listed as a FB championship

[bill gillespie]

Fastrack says 1450 #, as of Feb 1, 2019 for the 016.... first shot at slowing FA down to FB speed. ‘What’s next ?

[Charles Warner]

1976 runoffs FA was won by March with a BDA.

I was told it was FA but just looked in archives and it was listed as a FB championship

Originally Formula B was for stock block 1600 production engines, including all of the European twin cams - Alfa, Lotus, BMW, etc.. All was well until the advent of the BDA which was added to Formula B, hence the win in 1976 by a BDA-powered car in FB. In 1978 (from memory) the BDA powered cars were dominating Formulas A & B races, and the Formula A cars were going to combine with Can-Am cars. Since the FB class would be the showcase class of formula cars in the Club, a name change was instigated to follow along with the Canadian pro series (called Formula Pacific/Atlantic, using the BDA-N series engines IIRC). Ergo, the Club changed the name of the class to Formula Atlantic from 1979 on. 79 Marches and Ralt RT-1s dominated until the advent of ground effects cars (Ralt RT-4).

Therefore, Formula A of 1978 was totally different from Formula Atlantic of 1979. Clear as mud?

[Tom Fraelich]

Spot on Charles. It's depressing to admit I rememberd all that happening in real time! Man I miss the real FA cars.

Tom

[Joules5]

I'd still opt for the 016 at +30lbs over an FB! Perhaps more of a re-leveling the playing field, especially as more ex FIA F4 cars find their way into the FA class.

[J Leonard]

BDN's were Nicholson Mclaren BD's for the Canadian series. Pretty sure they were a spec engine. They had CASC logos stamped on major parts.

[David Locke]

In 1978 (from memory) the BDA powered cars were dominating Formulas A & B races, and the Formula A cars were going to combine with Can-Am cars. Since the FB class would be the showcase class of formula cars in the Club, a name change was instigated to follow along with the Canadian pro series (called Formula Pacific/Atlantic, using the BDA-N series engines IIRC). Ergo, the Club changed the name of the class to Formula Atlantic from 1979 on. 79 Marches and Ralt RT-1s dominated until the advent of ground effects cars (Ralt RT-4).

Therefore, Formula A of 1978 was totally different from Formula Atlantic of 1979. Clear as mud?

In the pro series, F5000 came to an end at the conclusion of the 1976 season, and the second Can-Am series began in 1977 using converted (full-bodied) F5000 cars. But in club racing the open-wheel F5000 cars continued for two more years as FA. The last FA Runoffs champion in 1978 was Stuart Forbes-Robinson, brother of EFR, in a Lola T332-Chevrolet. The FB Runoffs champion in 1978 was Jerry Hansen, in a March 78B-Cosworth BDA-N. Tim Coconis was the 1979 Runoffs champion in the new Formula Atlantic (FA) class in a Ralt RT1-Cosworth BDA-N.