Looking for input on a move to formula racing

[tcjaz2000]

Quick story- just another father with a racing son.

:Longer explanation: My kid has raced on dirt (microsprints) for about 8 years, meanwhile he's finished his motorsports degree and moved to the Indianapolis area to start his career. Worked for a few shock manufacturers, now works at a testing facility where he runs Indycars on 7-post shakers pretty much all day. My promise to him was never to get him a job as a race car driver, mind you, so in a way my work is done.

Now the wife and I have picked up stakes and moved to Indy too, and we've come to the conclusion that moving up the ladder in the dirt world (midgets, sprints) is more than we want to take on. But the racing bug is always going to be there, so we're looking at a variety of alternatives to fill that role. Open wheel has always fascinated me, so it's high on the list.

Considering that A- we live in Indianapolis - oddly a dry spot for road racing in general, though there are plenty of tracks in the 3-4 hour range, B- I have no visions of having my driver 'discovered', and C- I'm comfortable with wrenching on my own car (it's kind of the point of the hobby for me)- would FF/Continental be a good sweet spot as far as good car counts, available races nearby, etc or should a look at a 'smaller' platform (F600, FV)? The #1 goal for us is to have fun.

My tentative plan, assuming this is the direction we go, would be to send him to Lucas Oil school, then rent a ride/rides to finish out his license, then play it by ear while I finish my new garage and sell off my old dirt stuff.

[Steve Demeter]

If you do not plan to go beyond club racing, CFC with a 95 Van Dieman would be my recommendation.

Unless you can find a 90 to 95 Citation since the engineer / builder lives in Zionsville.

Just with the VD there are lots more of them around.

Given the choice I bought a Citation because of the quality and safety of the design and build. Also they happen to be darn fast.

[holmberg]

Check out these operational costs for the various classes. Operational costs are tires + engine + gearbox + fuel + brake pads + chain.

This spreadsheet also has purchase costs and performance data.

Also check out the Indy Region's participation by class, also for any nearby regions you might travel to. Class participation varies considerably from region to region, and you don't want to end up in a class where there's are only a few cars to race with.

Greg

[Ralph Z.]

Formula Ford offers driver challenges due to the lack of wings and things. Some say it's a good starting point as well. With less horsepower than FC it requires smoother driving.

[SEComposites]

Vintage Formula Ford would be my choice. Great looking cars that hold their value and you can race them with multiple organizations.

[Lotus7]

Check out these operational costs for the various classes. Operational costs are tires + engine + gearbox + fuel + brake pads + chain.

This spreadsheet also has purchase costs and performance data..

Greg

This spreadsheet pops up occasionally, and while I applaud the authors intent, was it ever published alongside a statement of how many datasets were used, and what the variances are in the averages quoted? That would help ‘users’ of the data plan for possible differences.
thanks

[holmberg]

This spreadsheet pops up occasionally, and while I applaud the authors intent, was it ever published alongside a statement of how many datasets were used, and what the variances are in the averages quoted? That would help ‘users’ of the data plan for possible differences.
thanks

I gathered the data by asking each community for their numbers, since I don't know the numbers myself. In many cases, there were not enough responses to create averages. That is, in many cases, there was was only one response.

If there are numbers you believe are not correct, then please find the thread on apexspeed for "operational costs" for the class in question, and add your opinion. I will do my best to moderate that discussion so that the commenters there can come to a value they all agree on. The whole process is out in the open.

I just report what people say in these discussions. In most cases, I have no experience with the class in question, and no opinion myself. I'm just a retired guy with too much time on his hands--I'm not associated with any motorsports business. I just want newbies to have the financial facts, so they don't get in over their heads. I think everyone in amateur road racing benefits when people know what they're getting into, and don't buy a car that just sits in their garage because they can't afford to run it.

[Lotus7]

If there are numbers you believe are not correct, then please find the thread on apexspeed for "operational costs" for the class in question, and add your opinion.

Sorry, was not my intention to challenge the numbers, only better understand the 'quality' of the data. I fully appreciate you are merely collating others info, and it is appreciated.
That said, you point out single-sample data in some cases; is there a file showing the raw data somewhere? thx

[Purple Frog]

OK, first you and son have been racing on dirt, so we know you and son understand racing and you are used to the associated costs.
And you and he are already used to side by side racing.
The most competitive thing on the club or semi-pro level is the F1600 Championship Series. Look it up.
F1600 in the SCCA Club Racing arena is called Formula F. Don't get confused, same thing.

I'm guessing if you sell the dirt stuff you probably will have a good nest egg to jump into a solid F1600 car.

You are in INDY. So here goes. Within miles of you are guys like Steve Lathrop and Richard Pare. Steve is on this site. Go talk to him. one of the great mentors of small bore formula car racing. Has has done it all, a world of experience and knowledge. Up the road in Muncie is John LaRue. Very approachable. He will give you a lot of insights. We are talking national championship caliber guys that will talk to you for free.

Next. You don't need to do Lucas. Guys like LaRue can put you in touch with the right people and your son can get a SCCA racing license pretty readily.

If you aren't sure, there are a bunch of prep shops nearby that you could rent a car for a test day. Polestar comes quickly to mind. Call Pam or Jim and talk to them, great folks. But there are others. Bob Wright (on this site) at FRP can supply you with a list of contacts.

Now my opinion. Your son won't dig FV. The cars are slower than his street car, and if he has been kicking up dirt he isn't going to fall in love with FV. Don't get me wrong, some of the greatest drivers in racing have mastered the art of "momentum" driving inches apart in FV. But he is going to want some 'grunt" behind his shoulder blades.

Steve means well but a '95 VD just isn't sophisticated enough for somebody that is already working daily on the shaker rig. It is ancient tech. Anything you think of buying needs to be less than 20 years old.

You are going to have to get a half way modern car. Period. End of discussion. otherwise you will buy three cars getting to the same place.

Vintage is great. But no place for an experienced racer in his 20s that has the skill set to go swift.

I know i'm pitching F1600... realize I'm a strong FC / F2000 guy, who has done many years in CFC, but I'm telling you to go F1600. There is a reason, trust me.

If you PM me I can supply contact numbers and such. I'm willing to talk on the phone.
I also know where a top shelf national FC car may be available....

[mmi16]

Mitchell Racing Services supports from F500 to FB - they are located in Indianapolis

https://www.facebook.com/Mitchell-Ra...3088625582439/

[holmberg]

Sorry, was not my intention to challenge the numbers, only better understand the 'quality' of the data. I fully appreciate you are merely collating others info, and it is appreciated.
That said, you point out single-sample data in some cases; is there a file showing the raw data somewhere? thx

There is not. Each community for a given class has a discussion and comes to a consensus. How long do the tires last, how many hours until the engine is no longer competitive, how often do you rebuild the gearbox, etc. Almost no one has actually tried to measure these things with proper record-keeping, durometer measurements, dyno pulls, etc. So the numbers are people's best guess/recollection. It's far from objective.

It can always use another person's input. I see Formula Ford in your icon. Perhaps you'd like to contribute your experience with Formula F operational costs?


Greg

[Matt Clark]

Steve means well but a '95 VD just isn't sophisticated enough for somebody that is already working daily on the shaker rig. It is ancient tech. Anything you think of buying needs to be less than 20 years old.

You are going to have to get a half way modern car. Period. End of discussion. otherwise you will buy three cars getting to the same place.

This brings up a good question about how much time & money you want to invest. Understanding that he works the advanced suspension stuff, do you guys want something simple to go have fun with, or does fun mean something more advanced that you need to engineer? That also translates into spending a lot more money... which is what you were trying to avoid in the dirt side.

Now my opinion. Your son won't dig FV. The cars are slower than his street car, and if he has been kicking up dirt he isn't going to fall in love with FV. Don't get me wrong, some of the greatest drivers in racing have mastered the art of "momentum" driving inches apart in FV. But he is going to want some 'grunt" behind his shoulder blades.

I am in FV / Challenge Cup, and this is very valid. FF / F1600 is definitely going to be way more oomph than the current aircooled FVs... but there is a LOT more expense to one of them, especially if you try to run the F1600 Pro Series (which FRP / USAC is still the way to go for any class they offer). If he has only run micro-sprints, he isn't necessarily going to be bored by slower cars. FC / F2000 could very well be over his head to start with.

However, we have had a few dirt guys with interest in FV due to the very low operating costs & low maintenance of the class. Without trying to volunteer him for anything, a long-time dirt racer in Indianapolis (currently running Midgets) Don O'Keefe bought a rather well-sorted Vortech & started running this year. What we consider expensive, he almost laughs at compared to what a Midget costs to run. He has apparently had a lot of interest from other dirt guys in his FV when they hear about it & see how close FVs race (as Frog mentions).

Contact anyone & everyone in your area, get to races, get to shops to see cars & talk costs. That is really the best way to understand exactly what you would be getting into with each type of car.

[pacratt]

My vote goes to Formula Vee (of course).
Lots of top-running race-ready cars for sale, relatively cheap now.
If "fun" is truly the goal, you can't beat the cost and the huge majority of Vee people are the best, friendliest & most helpful.
Glenn

[tcjaz2000]

Thanks for all the input! I think the next logical course of action is to spend a few days at the track and take in the similarities and differences between different classes, and to get my son's input on whether this is the avenue he wants to pursue vs touring or sportscar stuff. You'd think coming from an open wheel background it would be an obvious choice, but outside the fact that these cars have a common ancestry, four wheels, and no fenders, almost nothing else relates between dirt open wheel and formula cars.

Things being unequal as they are, I'm very intrigued by F1600- the power/weight ratio is closer to what he's used to (our cars were about 5lb/hp.) and from some of the on-board footage I've watched, they look to be 'grip-challenged' a bit with those narrow tires and lack of wings, which I think would play to my driver's strengths.

If anybody running FV, FF, or FC has an event within 3-4 hour drive of Indy this fall and wouldn't mind us coming by and bothering you with ridiculous questions, we'd love to get some exposure. Unfortuately it doesn't look like our local SCCA region hosts any club racing, so we'll have to travel.

[Ralph Z.]

Vintage Formula Ford would be my choice. Great looking cars that hold their value and you can race them with multiple organizations.

And, the cost of tires, which is significant, is much less with vintage treaded Hoosier's than slicks. The treaded are much lower cost but last forever. I have a set that lasted 3 seasons. Slicks, a set every two weekends.

[SEComposites]

Not to mention no need for dedicated slick and wets.

[SEComposites]

Vintage is great. But no place for an experienced racer in his 20s that has the skill set to go swift.

This may not be true for much longer. In the UK the Historic Formula Ford Championship has some very young drivers who see it as a legitimate lower cost way of getting noticed both to the Historic racing community as well more contemporary racing. I realize the UK is exceptional in that regard but I wouldn’t dismiss vintage racing at all over here.

[Garey Guzman]

If anybody running FV, FF, or FC has an event within 3-4 hour drive of Indy this fall and wouldn't mind us coming by and bothering you with ridiculous questions, we'd love to get some exposure. Unfortuately it doesn't look like our local SCCA region hosts any club racing, so we'll have to travel.

Based on my experience driving and occasionally spectating, you don't need an invitation! Just go and if they are like me, they'll chat with you until their throats are dry!

[Robert Finlayson]

You might notice that in most cases people are advising you to join the class they race in, myself included. My son came out of karting and I bought an FE and did very well. My advice would be to check out the races near you where you would be racing for car counts in the various classes. Racing is more fun with other competitors. I’m from Chicago area and I can assure you that FE is the largest fields around here consistently. I don’t know your budget but cars are more modern, spec car with wings. Great performance and reliable.