FF DEAD SAYS SCCA

[Joe Bass]

I think Jay answered the question. You get out of a FF engine what you put into it. If the prep work is done well and the engine is driven well it will last. If not, it won't. That was the case 30 years ago with both the Cortina and the Kent and it's no different today.

If you build for maximum power and are willing to sacrifice longevity it seems rather odd that you would then turn around and complain about the durability of the engine. There always were "Runoffs" engines. Fragile and costly.

If you're willing to abuse your engine in the heat of competition to gain an advantage it seems rather odd that you would then turn around and complain about the durability of the engine. That isn't learning what FF has to teach and it would seem the lesson it does teach isn't being learned, either.

[quote]Originally posted by Curtis Boggs:
[b]Jay,

Well put, .. very well put.

I do have a question, .. 2500 miles on a motor, ..
but it seems the pistons beat the cylinder bore and rings out at around 600 to 800 miles.

Are you finding a fair amount of power loss over that 2500 miles, .. and if so would a good forged piston help matters?

Curtis
Vector FF
racing Flow Development[/b][/quote]

[markD]

While Jay has excellent points on the existing engine, I think our motivation is moving away from the extensive prep work he mentions and into a mode of less engine maintenance and more driving and tuning of the car. A modern engine design also brings with it non-tangibles such as a nice high-rev sound (remember the biggest complaint the IRL had was the way it initially sounded, their new engine formula solved that so it sounds more like a race engine), it also provides a path for current auto enthusiasts that currently tweak small bore engines (what teenager wants to wrench on a 70 pinto engine?). Jay has a good point that no company has stepped up to support our series, that should be part of our selection criteria. If the company currently supports a professional open-wheel racing series they would be a candidate. No reason it needs to stay Formula Ford. CART ladder has Skippy's series and then Atlantics as it's feeder series, why don't we be the IRL's answer with Formula (Honda, Nissan, Ford, Chevy) feeding the Infiniti Series which feeds IRL? There are plenty of nay-sayers that will never buy in to the new engine formula, most either don't want to put forth the effort or have too-much of a vested interest in the current engine formula. All we can do is do the homework, convert a car or two and take it to SCCA. If they don't like it then take it to the IRL's sanctioning body (USAC?) or another.

[size="1"][ December 18, 2002, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: joefisherff ][/size]

[Aiken Racing]

I have realized something from Jay's reply...

Now a newer hi-tech engine would last much longer, take more abuse and keep trucking but it doesn't teach us good engine management. Now if all we ever want to do is race lower Formula series like ours then having an engine that will last longer is a good thing. If we want to move up the ranks of racing understanding good engine management is one key to racing.

IndyCar engines are super hi-tech, new and they break all the time during the races. So by learning earlier about engine management it will teach us to conserve when we encounter big HP engines are there always on the edge of blowing up.

A small weak engine lower HP engine like ours probably behaves like a large strong high HP engine. Either will blow up if abused. Ours will break because they are weak and use mainly stock parts, theirs break because they put out so much HP.

I'm still for new engines because most people in FF will probably always be in FF so why not save the money in engine expenses? If you are always going to run kents and you know what abuse will destroy them why not just take that out of the equation and focus more on driving and chassis setup?

It's funny how the chassis people want a change and the engine people don't want a change. Both have good points but the facts are facts and numbers are declining.

If the engine isn't the reason for declining numbers please inform us what we are missing and tell us that numbers will increase without any changes.

Chris

[cdona]

A change is not necessary if we are content with the engine life we have now or can attain with new parts.To make this engine work we will have to use better parts to increase longevity.Jay makes good points and he has probably done more to make the Kent reliable than anyone else.I know he is always thinking of ways to enhance the Kent by improving the quality of the parts.I have alot invested in the Kent motor and would hate to loose that,but I want what is best for the class.It does not do the motor builders any good for the car counts to be dropping either.Jay just like the other builders have put a sizable investment into the classes future just as we have as owners.We need to work together to achieve the best results for all involved.

[Ferris11]

Peter,

The poor design of the piston skirt lets the piston rock in the bore and kills the ring lands and the cylinder bore, ... it has nothing to do with how hard it's run.

A bad design is a bad design, .. and these pistons rock in the bore creating the "eyebrow" wear at the top of the bore. After 400 to 600 miles the power drops off by a few HP or more, .. after 1000 miles or so the only way to get the bore back to seal a ring is to sleeve the block.

Has nothing to do with a "runoffs" motor and everything to do with reducing the cost of the rebuild at the end of a season.

When we do our off season rebuild, .. if I don't have to buy new pistons and have my block sleeved I'm saving money, .. and all I'm after is saving money.

Curtis
vector FF
Racing Flow Development

[Joe Bass]

I'd be real curious to hear Jay's observations on this. Why didn't we see this in the classes heyday?

[quote]Originally posted by Curtis Boggs:
[b]Peter,

The poor design of the piston skirt lets the piston rock in the bore and kills the ring lands and the cylinder bore, ... it has nothing to do with how hard it's run.

A bad design is a bad design, .. and these pistons rock in the bore creating the "eyebrow" wear at the top of the bore. After 400 to 600 miles the power drops off by a few HP or more, .. after 1000 miles or so the only way to get the bore back to seal a ring is to sleeve the block.

Has nothing to do with a "runoffs" motor and everything to do with reducing the cost of the rebuild at the end of a season.

When we do our off season rebuild, .. if I don't have to buy new pistons and have my block sleeved I'm saving money, .. and all I'm after is saving money.

Curtis
vector FF
Racing Flow Development[/b][/quote]

[dc]

So then why not opt for an aftermarket piston with a better design for more longevity?

[Keith Carter]

because then you would not get 6 pages of nothing.

[Ferris11]

Doug,

This is what I'm asking, ..

I'd love to go to a good forged piston like they did with the pinto motor.

Imagine going two seasons on the same set of pistons, .. you'd save $400 on pistons and $500 on sleeves the second rebuild! A savings of $900 or more on my rebuild, .. and maybe the motor would go 3000 miles or more!

Curtis
vector FF
racing Flow Development

[Ferris11]

ya know, .. I was just thinking about this, ..

Jay makes an awsome valve spring that would go 4000 miles, .. the rocker stands Jay makes helps the valve guides live, .. the Scat steel crank will live well over 5000 miles, ..

the only weak point I can think of to keep us from going close to 5000 miles is the piston.

Jay, .. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, .. cause if this is true, .. what do we need a new engine for???????????????

Curtis
vector FF
Racing Flow Development

Peter,

Don't you remember in the "heyday" when someone had the stock piston made with the pin offset to counter the piston slap in the bore???

[quote]Why didn't we see this in the classes heyday? [/quote]

[size="1"][ December 18, 2002, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Curtis Boggs ][/size]

[Joe Bass]

Must have been a different "heyday" than my participation, or at least it wasn't "caught" in that time frame.

[quote]Originally posted by Curtis Boggs:
[b]Don't you remember in the "heyday" when someone had the stock piston made with the pin offset to counter the piston slap in the bore???
[/b][/quote]

[Dennis Cleary]

I'm all for an alternative piston. Same compression ratio, no power advantage. Someone pick a part number and let's send it up the hill with the flywheel proposal. Or, just strike the section that says factory pistons and change the wording to "pistons - open".

[JONKATHY]

I know I'm still brand new to this FF stuff but I had to tell my story:

When I first took an interest in open-wheel cars a few months ago, I started reading the posts on this site and the F2000 site. When I first saw the words 'Pinto motor', it didn't even occur to me that these sexy cars could really be using a FORD PINTO motor!! I figured that Pinto must be some exotic European motor that I'd never heard of before.

Needless to say, I was suprised when I found out the truth.

The more I learned about the expenses involved in keeping those Pinto motors going, the more I shyed away from FF.

Eventually I gave in and bought one- mostly because it was the cheapest way into a 'real' racecar (FV notwithstanding).

I'm not trying to bash the motor or this group.

I just wanted to explain that from someone on the outside looking in, the picture ain't all that pretty.

It's not hard to see why so many people are getting into Spec Miata- fairly cheap cars that are real cheap to maintain engine-wise.

Now I don't know the solution to all this (hell, I haven't even driven my car yet!), but it would not hurt the image of FF from an outsider's point-of-view if the cars used a motor that didn't need a rebuild so often.

If this can be achieved by allowing different components to be used while keeping HP at a maximum allowable level, then why would anyone object??

Think about it.

[Rick Brannon]

I think if you'll re-read Jay Ivey's post, you will see that the engines are competetive at 2500 miles. I have run Jay's engines in excess of 3800 miles (Sorry Jay)and was not being pulled down the straight. If you are running for the National Championship you are going to have a fresh engine, regardless of what class you are in.(except maybe FM and SRF) The Ford 1600 is a very strong engine, especialy now with the new crank. Most engine problems are driver/builder induced. I have seen 11,000 + RPM on the computer data from customer cars more times than I care to say, but the engines kept running until rebuild time. The only serious maintnance I perform in the shop is pulling the head and cleaning the carbon periodicaly. My rebuilds normaly run $3,000 to $4,000 including shipping and dyno charges. The only way you are going to seriously bring that cost down is if you go to a spec/sealed engine. This is Formula Ford........the engine ain't the problem.

[Roger Caddell]

I have rarely seen or have had problems with pistons the way your talking about. From 22years ago to present we have lifed the pistons out at 4000 to 4500 miles sometimes sooner depending on ring-land wear. And that depended on the rev's and heat. Maybe you guy's know something I don't or maybe I'm just missing something.
People years ago "the heyday" would have their engines rebuilt sooner than they needed because when they would get beat they would think the winner had something they didn't and usually on that day it was better driver better set-up.
There's an effort now to get some parts and rules approved to have better availability and to lower the cost with a better part. Pistons will also be in the works but at a later date because testing data needs to be supplied with that kind of part change.
There are alot of people that enjoy FF today just the way it is. And like the challenge of it. If you buy or own a FF and then start complaining about the engine or gearbox or whatever that's in it. Then sell it to someone who appreciates the history and heratige of the class and go buy something else, there's lot to choose from. Or do the alternative Shut-up and go have some fun!! It's still the best racing. Ivey Engines

[Chuck Gillis]

Thank you Roland, Thank you Jay. It's never been the engine. The heading on this thread says it all: [i]"FF Dead Says SCCA"[/i]

Good Grief Charlie Brown, HAS THE SCCA EVER BEEN WRONG?

When the SCCA decides to get serious about promoting a class that doesn't have fenders, isn't a spec class, or isn't made by our for-profit albatross, we might just find that newbies step UP to a FF or CF or SF instead of some other class. There is no lack of chassis available.

This topic is going to exceed the record on the FFU methinks. For me, I'm going to rebuild the Lola, smile at the VD and go race some more next year.

gm

[Ferris11]

Jay,

Just to be clear, .. i LOVE my FF and don't want to go anywhere else, and I do enjoy the Kent.

I am surprised at the piston life you expect, ..
it sounds like perhaps I don't know something you do. ;)

So what will make these engines seem to "go flat" after 400 - 500 miles. It's like it lost a few hp and just isn't as crisp as when new?

I thought the ring seal at the wear spot in the bore was causing it.

Curtis
vector FF
racing Flow Development

[roggie93]

I feel sorry for someone new, or on the fence, with formula or club fords.
I imagine that if I were new and looking for information to get into racing a fford and saw these threads I would probably opt not to run one.
I will be out running my car on whatever tires I find to fit my budget, with an engine that I've rebuilt myself.
Tell me again why everyone is whining up a fuss about motors?
How about setting your rev limiters to 7000 and shifting at 6700? Then, set your valves, check your timing, get in the car and race for crying out LOUD!!
My personal experience has been that over more than 100 races, I've used 2 engines. One was a Quicksilver that blew the crank at it's 4th race, and no, it was never bottomed. I only ever sent up to MWE for a new shortblock to repair that one.
I bought a new MWE back in '94 because my Dad had sucked a valve in his motor and destroyed it.
I did send up the MWE for a rebuild in '98 and will be re-ringing it this winter. I will send the head to a local shop to have the seats and valves touched up, new guides put in and new springs installed.
Enough of that, do the math and tell me how expensive these engines are again?
See you at the track, hopefully, if after reading these posts you haven't sold your car or committed suicide.

[Scotty Segers]

JD,
You hit the nail on the head!
FF (also FC) [b]CAN[/b] be economical if you mostly rebuild the engines and do a lot of the other work yourself. However, you are in the minority. Most people just don't have the time, the desire, or the expertise to do that.
Those people would rather buy something that requires minimal time on their part to keep it running.
As a result, FF or FC do not appeal to most newcomers. People like you don't need or want a lot of change in the class, because then the cost goes up and the experience you have with the current components would be wasted.
As I see it, FF will remain mostly as it is with improved engine components and people who like to work on stuff. The spec classes will belong to the folks who just want to drive.

[cdona]

Hey Dave,Why don't you come back to FF I am sure many of us would like race against you again.You are the right age you know.

[Don Becker]

Can someone say what has been accomplished here? The class is not dead, agreed.
The motor is not going anywhere.
We need some more parts.
Identify the motors weak links, get new and improved parts.
Spec Car - who knows what this will impact.
FF needs manufacturer support really move to the pro-support level

Who is leading this charge, how can we voice our support to make the changes happen?

[Scotty Segers]

Mike,
The right age?!?! What the heck does that mean!?!?

Seriously, I've actually thought about that. The closer dicing due to the absence of wings is very enticing (easier passing without lost downforce, no bent wings, etc.). With the new, more reliable, engine parts, it makes a lot of sense. However, I'd have to sell what I've got to do it, so for now, I'll stay where I am.

[size="1"][ December 19, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: DaveW ][/size]

[cdona]

Dave-Remember those great Runoff battles at Road Atlanta.We love to see you back in FF.By the way Dave I will be 50 this year.I can't hardly believe it.This class is so much fun, hopefully it will keep me young.Look at Stan Towns that guy has more fun and his age does'nt slow him down a bit.More power to all of us old guys.The neat thing is no one knows how old you till you take off your helmet.If it is a young guy and you just cleaned his clock the look you get is what keeps me coming back for more.Happy Holidays

[timmy]

If I win the lotto... I'd buy Dave's setup, then he could buy Pare's latest FF, and he and Sherrie would kick some FF booty again.

But then I'd look bad when I couldn't put his Citation up at the front...

I'm still thinking about Jay getting 4000 miles out of a set of pistons... He didn't say how long the rings are good for (I'm assuming not that long). Anyway, at a 90 mph average that is 44 hours of operation. I'm thinking maybe... if you replace the rings once at 22 hours. But that still means a teardown every 22 hours. I guess 22 hours will get a lot of clubbies through two seasons or more. After two seasons they are either hooked for life, or off in another class. [img]smile.gif[/img] My experience is with the 2L and I'm just not meeting folks that get 22 hours between refreshes.

[size="1"][ December 19, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Purple Frog ][/size]

[JDUB]

"You're the right age" this is a funny statement, it has been amazing and heart warming to me to see so many silverbacks out there having fun while really driving the hell out of these cars in my region and yes, at this point they're smoking me too..

For them to do this when they definetly are old enough to know the level of risk and consequences associated with a crash takes HUGE huevos, and maybe a small dose of insanity, definetly rules out the Viagra factor. More power to them and more power to the sport in it's cheapest, simplest form..

[Steve Thomson]

As I see it from the outside #1 Immediatly demand and apply cost saving measures to participants, including non-performance enhancing but reliability encancing engine mods ;same compression forged pistons, forged crank,If one chooses; lightened flywheel offset by increased car weight.
#2 Look for new engine.Not just a current engine but a future one so this turmoil doesn't have to take place again for awhile.If Ford; Duratec 1.8 or perhaps the Spec racer motor detuned.It would be best to find a Auto manufacturer first, and engine second.
#3 A single well directed voice has to be established. SCCA has other priorities but they are not the enemy. "United we stand.."
#4 CF continues with Kent engines as a place for "retired" FF engines.

[Don Becker]

Guys, Please, Please, Please tell me of another racing organization that races the same car and chassis from the late 70's and 80's? None.

DIRT and Modifieds a rountinely updated and changed. About all they have may be the seat, radiator and trans and rear. I don't see any flat head motors running. NASCAR mods dropped big blocks. Nothing stays the same in racing, except FF. The result are all these issues.

CF/FF is a private club. SCCA is a private club. You can not make your private club and it's politics attractive to the public for sponsors and revenue. Manufactures don't see you as a viable market. You just need to figure out what is best to keep your membership and car counts up. Spec Formula is just a another club you need to compete for members with.

[cdona]

I have never been called a silverback before.How about you Dave?We must be really old.

[cdona]

Dave, this guy referred to us as if we are old guerillas.I think that is what a silverback is.That's funny.Happy New Year

[TIGA82]

Driver's age is somewhat off subject here, but how about Dan Carmichael? A fighter ace in WWII kicking butt in FA! I saw him remove his helmet after his victory lap at MO and just couldn't believe a grandfather-type smoking the 20-something young lions. Neither could they. It was great to watch all of the jaws drop.

[cdona]

I guess we have figured out that FF is not dead.It is just in a lull right now.As new parts become available maybe engine longevity will increase and the class will become more cost effective.I am looking forward to a fun year with my FF.So all you other guys let's go racing.Run at least 8 events and our numbers will improve.It is up to us to make FF closer to what it once was and participation is the answer.

[SWMyers]

I love these topics. I use quality pro-built engines in my clients cars, both 1600 and 2L. I run them around ten weekends, or 2000 miles. It costs around $250-$350 per weekend for both engines. How is this so bad? Racing just costs money.

[PRSCHMN]

If we want Dave W. to really come back to his roots, he would need a Caldwell D-13 FV eh?

Which year did he win the Runoffs at Rd Atl in the rain with that one??

[cdona]

I remember Dave W.raced FV first but us FF guys never held that against him. It would be great if he would come back to FF but his FC effort is going pretty well so he may not even consider FF.

[Scotty Segers]

The last I raced FV for more than a "one-off" (1972) it was with an Autodynamics MK5 (I think) with a D-13 body, which was better for straight-line speed. That's the car I won the '72 Runoffs with in the rain.

[size="1"][ December 28, 2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: DaveW ][/size]

[JDUB]

He-he, you got it banana boy ;) I was just adding some funnin' to the thread since a open was left in a prior post.. But really I like and respect you guys, who else can peel an orange with their lips.. oops did I say that??