VIR Starters Stand - 2019 Runoffs

[mmi16]

The present location and construction of the Starters Stand at Virginian International Raceway is a safety hazard for FAIR and SAFE race starts for race groups with more than a handful of cars. The stand is on the inside of a curve behind the main race administration building and on the downside of a hill. As a flag station on the straight it is fine. As the STARTERS STAND it cannot be seen, in most cases, beyond 4 or 5 rows deep.

In Club Racing, not EVERYONE has crew with radio contact with the driver. Those without radios have to rely on being able to see the Green Flag for the start of a race. Without all drivers in a race group having equal opportunity to SEE the display of the Green Flag their cannot be a FAIR Start. With different drivers responding to SEEING or HEARING via radio the display of the Green it creates a highly dangerous situation with some cars starting to race and some cars still trying to see the green.

There are two possible fixes - move the Starters Stand to the apex position of the curve on the front straight or raise the Starters Stand another 20 or so feet in the air so the drivers on the front straight CAN SEE THE STARTER - not just a glimpse of the Green Flag in its highest raised position when the Starter waves it.

Prior communications with VIR Management have stated they want the Starters Stand in that particular location 'for the fans'. The purpose of the Starters Stand is not to satisfy fans, it is to provide FAIR and SAFE starts for the drivers.

With the 2019 Runoffs a year and a half in the future, now is the time to FIX the Starters Stand issues at VIR. VIR is a exemplary facility in all other aspects of their operation.

[LenFC11]

I have done a few F2000 and F1600 races at VIR.. my favorite track by the way.. and never felt like it was not fair or unsafe.. no radios at times.. well.. more like no one to be on the other end..

Can see if you are further down the grid how it can be hard to see the green flag fly but you should have a good idea of where you are on track relative to the leaders.. observe other races as to when the starter throws the green and be ready.. listen to engines..!!! Hammer it and enjoy great race track!!

[andyllc]

I have done a few F2000 and F1600 races at VIR.. my favorite track by the way.. and never felt like it was not fair or unsafe.. no radios at times.. well.. more like no one to be on the other end..

Can see if you are further down the grid how it can be hard to see the green flag fly but you should have a good idea of where you are on track relative to the leaders.. observe other races as to when the starter throws the green and be ready.. listen to engines..!!! Hammer it and enjoy great race track!!

Len
Not sure of the last time you were at VIR, just in case you or anyone else didn't know, VIR did move the starter stand from the original position to closer to turn one.

My issue isn't so much its location but the big yellow banner that is currently on it making you really have to focus to see if it is a yellow flag they are waving or if it is just the banner that is on it.

[LenFC11]

Andy

Thank you for the update.. it has been a few years and I was unaware of the move.

[Tigaman]

That's an odd one...

I've started dozens of races at VIR since the stand location has been changed. From pole and from the back, hundreds since the track opened. The removal of the tree, the width of the track and the elevation all enhance the view of the start stand from the car.

The limiting factor is my acuity, not the vertical height of the platform TRACKSIDE of the tower it's attached to.

While it's important not to have conflicting, surrounding banner and advertising colors to the flags, the green and checker, as well as the Whelen safety lights indicating a double yellow condition, are all perfectly visible for pros and ams alike.

[clint]

maybe some video could be posted so the rest of us can see your concerns?

[mmi16]

maybe some video could be posted so the rest of us can see your concerns?

Starters Stand location

[Tigaman]

The extende field of view on this GoPro screenshot distorts the target...

[mmi16]

The extende field of view on this GoPro screenshot distorts the target...

It's not a Go-Pro and that is a accurate representation of what it looks like 8 rows deep. The Starters Stand does not even extend to the hot portion of the track - ending over pit lane.

[Dog Licked Racing]

VIR is my "home track" and I love it dearly but the new location of the starters stand is terrible. It is very difficult to see and based on some finish's were 2 or 2 of us were dam sure who crossed the line it what order its also nowhere near the timing loop. The old location had it's share of issues too. It needs to at least extend to over the main portion of the track be at least 10 feet taller. Of course if you on the back side of the hill (row 20 back) only a radio will help.

[Bob Wright]

FRP uses acceleration cones, a video camera aimed at the S/F line for finishes and a staff member with a radio telling the starter the condition of the field prior to the start. With that, we can throw the green fairly late

[Tigaman]

its also nowhere near the timing loop.

The old location had it's share of issues too.

It needs to at least extend to over the main portion of the track be at least 10 feet taller.

Umm, there is a NEW loop at the new s/f stand. Has been since it was built.

Old location did have it's issues. One of the reasons why there is a new one.

No, the FIA and others do not recommend the start stand OVER the race track proper.

[mmi16]

Umm, there is a NEW loop at the new s/f stand. Has been since it was built.

Old location did have it's issues. One of the reasons why there is a new one.

No, the FIA and others do not recommend the start stand OVER the race track proper.

Were it to have been built on the other side if the track - it would stand out as being the only thing there. As it is, it is camouflaged by the race administration building and being behind pit lane.

The Starters Stand is for the RACERS, not the fans.

[Tigaman]

Were it to have been built on the other side if the track - it would stand out as being the only thing there.

And it would be in a target zone... Sheesh.

If this had been an issue, I would have heard a LOT more racers, both pro and am, complain about this.

But there's always a first...

[mmi16]

And it would be in a target zone... Sheesh.

If this had been an issue, I would have heard a LOT more racers, both pro and am, complain about this.

But there's always a first...

Squeaking wheels attract oil. As a driver I am rarely near the front of the grid. As a one man band I have no crew to give me the Green over the radio. Given those two realities I RELY on seeing the GREEN. There is no legitimate reason to make the Starters Stand as difficult to pick up FOR DRIVERS IN THE CARS as VIR has done.

Undoubtedly most of the Pro and Am drivers you speak to have radios and crew to be able to view and communicate the GREEN to them, of course they have no difficulty.

In Theory, one should be able to see the Starters Stand from the end of the Suites building - however, the crest of the hill prevents that line of sight with low seat height formula cars.

I have drawn the Theory Line of Sight - that doesn't show the differences in elevation that create their own issues.

When you compare this view, with the original 'on track' view I presented it can be seen that I am well past the suites and the Starters Stand is barely in view - there are people on the stand but you can't see their silhouettes in that shot.

Raise the Stand another 10 to 20 feet and see that it is painted a contrasting color. I believe the original Nurburgring Nordschliffe has been referred to as 'The Green Hell'. With all the green that is VIR, having the Starters Stand being green assists in the camouflage.

[Eric Cruz]

I agree that the new starter's stand is more difficult to see than the old one...there are other structures that cause it not to stand out plainly. However, as Peter said, you can see the green flag wave there from a formula car as deep in the field as you can at pretty much any other track. You need to take it upon yourself to look for the stand. Find it as soon as you can, then focus on it for the green flag. I was just racing there last weekend as well as in March, and I can see the green at (or before) the time it is called on my radios. You CAN see it if you take the time to know where to look.

The yellow on the Michelin banner on the stand is another story. Catches me every time on the front straight. However, coming through T12 at Road Atlanta, there's a giant yellow banner behind the starters stand. Been there for years. Still gets me every time. Workers wearing black jackets in the black flag stand, the orange jackets you see now (orange is red and yellow, right?) - you just have to work with it all and process it. Trust me, they aren't going to change it for you, so adapt and overcome.

Best regards,
Eric

[mmi16]

I agree that the new starter's stand is more difficult to see than the old one...there are other structures that cause it not to stand out plainly. However, as Peter said, you can see the green flag wave there from a formula car as deep in the field as you can at pretty much any other track. You need to take it upon yourself to look for the stand. Find it as soon as you can, then focus on it for the green flag. I was just racing there last weekend as well as in March, and I can see the green at (or before) the time it is called on my radios. You CAN see it if you take the time to know where to look.

Drivers should not have to 'take the time to know where to look'. The Starters Stand should be VERY OBVIOUS to ALL the field as it approaches. Full fields for the Runoff's will be 82 cars. Having 60 cars 'take the time to know where to look' and still not be able to see it is the prescription for a big mess.

[Nardi]

I would have to think that if you're at the tail end of an 80 car field, you wouldn't be able to clearly see the starter stand in even the absolute best of situations.

[mmi16]

I would have to think that if you're at the tail end of an 80 car field, you wouldn't be able to clearly see the starter stand in even the absolute best of situations.

Reality is that a 80 car field will still have cars in Hog Pen when the leaders get the Green, but those cars between 20 & 60 will still be guessing if they saw the Green or not. Why should drivers be forced to guess if the Green is waving or not?

[swiftdrivr]

I got talked to by the stewards for pulling out of line so I could see the green. It is a bit of a problem for at least some of us in low cars. However, I don't expect any fix will happen, and if they are going to fix something [in fantasy land] the proximity to the condos when spinning in the esses seems much more concerning. I think Randy Pobst [splg?] told them of this issue before they were built, so not expecting any change there either, just a bill when you hit them. Still the best racetrack in the US though.

[northarrowracing]

I do think Jim has a point and I have shared his difficulty with the present starters stand. I realize it's not going to be moved back however so here is an idea. Why don't they add a couple of green LED lights onto that stand, maybe projected out over the track a couple of feet. Anyone further back would have a better angle to see them even if the starter himself could not be clearly seen. Then at the start they go green when the flag is waved just like at the big boy tracks. I wasn't there at Indy for the runoffs but didn't they use those lights at the beginning of each race. Anyway the cost would be minimal and the lights could be easily seen by everyone. Are any road race circuits here using lights, not all the way around, just at the start.
Ric

[swiftdrivr]

Great idea Ric. Easy to elevate or extend out over the track, without any risks or any significant cost, and much easier to see.

[mmi16]

I do think Jim has a point and I have shared his difficulty with the present starters stand. I realize it's not going to be moved back however so here is an idea. Why don't they add a couple of green LED lights onto that stand, maybe projected out over the track a couple of feet. Anyone further back would have a better angle to see them even if the starter himself could not be clearly seen. Then at the start they go green when the flag is waved just like at the big boy tracks. I wasn't there at Indy for the runoffs but didn't they use those lights at the beginning of each race. Anyway the cost would be minimal and the lights could be easily seen by everyone. Are any road race circuits here using lights, not all the way around, just at the start.
Ric

The position Pylon at Indy turned GREEN with the waving of the green.

[northarrowracing]

The position Pylon at Indy turned GREEN with the waving of the green.

I am thinking VIR probably doesn't want to spend that kind of money but that would be great. I think now is the right time for someone who reads this, who is also someone of note in the SCCA to mention something to Connie N. at VIR. The runoffs next year will have cars backed up to hog pen as mentioned and frankly anything which might make a safer start for all that sheet metal and fiberglass would be appreciated by all. The lights should be simple and fairly cheap. IMHO

Ric

[Tigaman]

Ric, no need for the "inside line" to Connie and Kerrigan.

They're very responsive and if the data indicates something can be improved, Kerrigan and his crew generally try to implement that improvement.

There is/have been Whelen Safety Lights for the IMSA events hung on the extension out over the pit lane, and directly under the starter's general position that actively signal and indicate FCY and other situations. Perhaps availability of that can be confirmed.

The position of the last corner station driver's right at 17 allow the folks stil coming down the hill and through Hog Pen the ability to see the double-yellows on the pace lap dropped at the moment of the green, just like Turn 14 at IMS.

For the record, I've never had radio communications with crew to indicate start status. That does not absolve me as a competitor to be responsible in my speed approaching the flag, my lateral position in line and the point and time at which I go to WOT.

As the Chief Instructor for NCR-SCCA, I can assure you that this is one of the least pressing issues facing competitors for the Runoffs at this particular venue...

[northarrowracing]

Ric, no need for the "inside line" to Connie and Kerrigan.

They're very responsive and if the data indicates something can be improved, Kerrigan and his crew generally try to implement that improvement.

There is/have been Whelen Safety Lights for the IMSA events hung on the extension out over the pit lane, and directly under the starter's general position that actively signal and indicate FCY and other situations. Perhaps availability of that can be confirmed.

The position of the last corner station driver's right at 17 allow the folks stil coming down the hill and through Hog Pen the ability to see the double-yellows on the pace lap dropped at the moment of the green, just like Turn 14 at IMS.

For the record, I've never had radio communications with crew to indicate start status. That does not absolve me as a competitor to be responsible in my speed approaching the flag, my lateral position in line and the point and time at which I go to WOT.

As the Chief Instructor for NCR-SCCA, I can assure you that this is one of the least pressing issues facing competitors for the Runoffs at this particular venue...

So sorry if my post was worded poorly. I am sure management at VIR is interested in all suggestions that may impact drivers, spectators, or overall safety. Certainly you, as chief driving instructor for the NCR-SCCA, are in a better position to judge this issue than myself.
Ric

[Tigaman]

Ric, I’m sorry if I sounded snippy. I will ask about this when I’m up there over the next few days. Thanks.

[Steve Demeter]

Never having been to VIR, but following this thread a half crazy idea just popped into my head: why not use a green flag with a long pole so it can get out over the track where it has a better chance of being seen.

[mmi16]

Never having been to VIR, but following this thread a half crazy idea just popped into my head: why not use a green flag with a long pole so it can get out over the track where it has a better chance of being seen.

Ever tried to 'wave' a flag pole - with flag attached? The flag and pole become the boss and the person trying to wave it is just along for the ride.

[Steve Demeter]

OK so maybe it is not half crazy but all crazy LOL

[rdracr]

Why not"cure" it like the green lights on the bridge at Road America? Without the bridge. Just a green light up track from the starter's stand.

[mmi16]

Why not"cure" it like the green lights on the bridge at Road America? Without the bridge. Just a green light up track from the starter's stand.

Having 'Green Light Stations' situated every 50 yards or so along the pit divider wall as far back as the entry from the False Grid would, to my mind, be a relatively inexpensive solution in communicating the waving of the green to large fields. Lights should be positioned 8 to 10 feet above the racing surface.

I would also like to see the current stand raised another 'story' with the top level painted dayglo orange so that it stands out from the camouflage of the Administration Building.

[mmi16]

And it would be in a target zone... Sheesh.

If this had been an issue, I would have heard a LOT more racers, both pro and am, complain about this.

But there's always a first...

Road America is on the outside of the track!

High Roller Pro & Am's have crew with radios. One man bands don't.

[Purple Frog]

For the record i don't think this is a big deal.

That said...

There is a solution. Since Summit Racing now has their name on every car in the Majors/Runoffs. Propose to Summit Racing to provide a big ass LED light system on top of the platform. They can put their branding all around it. Nice Red, white, and blue like.
It can be blindingly Green, or Yellow, or Red.
They can even have a few smaller ones along the guard rail going up track from the starter's stand.
Starter waves the ceremonial flag and pushes a button.
Brightness follows.
Summit Racing gets credit for going GREEN, and promoting racing.
One man bands can sing their solo song happily.

Somebody now needs to make Topeka think its their idea.

PR quote: "Summit Racing starts the best road racing in America!"

[Tigaman]

For the record i don't think this is a big deal.

That said...

There is a solution.

Somebody now needs to make Topeka think its their idea.

PR quote: "Summit Racing starts the best road racing in America!"

There you go!

[DaveW]

...
PR quote: "Summit Racing starts the best road racing in America!"

Brilliant! SCCA needs you for their PR guru!

[Jayeff]

Brilliant! SCCA needs you for their PR guru!

One thing about SCCA PR, it is woeful in the extreme.

[mmi16]

For the record i don't think this is a big deal.

That said...

There is a solution. Since Summit Racing now has their name on every car in the Majors/Runoffs. Propose to Summit Racing to provide a big ass LED light system on top of the platform. They can put their branding all around it. Nice Red, white, and blue like.
It can be blindingly Green, or Yellow, or Red.
They can even have a few smaller ones along the guard rail going up track from the starter's stand.
Starter waves the ceremonial flag and pushes a button.
Brightness follows.
Summit Racing gets credit for going GREEN, and promoting racing.
One man bands can sing their solo song happily.

Somebody now needs to make Topeka think its their idea.

PR quote: "Summit Racing starts the best road racing in America!"

Now you have your task!

[Seeker]

For the record i don't think this is a big deal.

That said...

Somebody now needs to make Topeka think its their idea.

PR quote: "Summit Racing starts the best road racing in America!"

That is a good idea, but I would imagine that VIR may have an issue with Summit bringing a big ass LED light to the track. It may take some convincing for them to allow the light.

[Purple Frog]

If all the sanctioning bodies that rent their track say it is a good idea I'm thinking VIR would think it was a good idea.

One must shape the proposal as being good for the track, good for the spectators, and good for the insurance companies.

And don't make VIR pay for it.

e.g. The Whelen Series has more bright lights than a Christmas tree.