FF Spec Tire (GY R600)

[harshda]

Hello,

From a discussion on this topic on FFU, I gathered
that some regions are running spec tires for FF.
I have a few questions. We are trying to make the
GY R600 a spec tire for CalClub regional races. We
tested the tire at an event last month, and everybody
was fairly pleased with the performance.

1) How was this implemented in the regions that have
done so? From talking to the BoG and Comp Committee
around here, they tell me that I need to collect a
bunch of data, including cost analysis, create a new
class, and get Denver to approve it. I thought
we could just put a tire rule on the sup. regs,
and that with with that. Any info would be
greatly appreciated.

2) How many heat cycles are people getting out of
these tires?

Thanks a lot for any info.

Gerry Salazar
FF #7 Cal Club

[Dale Carter]

In NER, we simply adopted the Spec Tire for CF within our own Club Ford Committee when CF was created here in 1984 and it was so indicated in the Supps. and publicized in our Regional Newsletter, "Pit Talk". The problem we ran into was that guys from other Regions would arrive at NER events (at Lime Rock Park and at Bryar) and not be able to run in CF even though they met the other CF rule - outboard suspension at one end. If they did not run the Spec Tire (GY600 or Hoosier 60) they had to run in FF. Then the entire NARRC Series adopted the Spec Tire rule and so most races in the northeast have a Spec Tire for CF. I think this was done by vote at the NARRC Convention after quite a bit of lobbying by the Members. The CF Class in NARRC is called NCF or "NARRC Club Ford! (NARRC = North American Road Racing Championship Series). I think all Regionals at LRP and NHIS are NARRC races but I'm not positive. When we go to Watkins Glen and the Regional event is not included in the NARRC Series then the Club Ford guys can run any tire. Sometimes, if enough NCF cars show up to make a class, the Region will recognize NCF as a separate class and give out trophies. There! Is that clear now?

As far as performance and heat cycles go, most racers in the northeast have been extremely pleased with the longevity and grip the GY600 tires provide. Take a look at the NARRC RunOffs Results posted under the Events/Results topic and you will find that the quick guys in CF are sometimes within a few tenths of the FF guys at LRP. Even in older PRS RH01 cars!! I think, in general, the CF runners use their tires for as many as four or five events before the grip drops off in any significant way. There are those who are not gunning for the end-of-season Championship who run their full season, say, eight events, on one set. Maybe they put on a new outside front after four events. Of course, up front a guy going for all the marbles will invariably buy three sets for the season. Just to make things interesting, we have sometimes been able to get a discount from GY by getting together and bulk-ordering 20 sets at a time!! Try it.

[Dale Carter]

Gerry, one other point. Tell your Comp. Board and BOD folks to lighten up. This is Club Racing!! I am reminded how Club Ford was initiated here in the NER: Three of us went to a Comp. Board Meeting and talked up the idea for ten minutes. Then, not knowing what we were in for, we sat back down and held our breath. The Chairman of the Comp. Bd. at the time, John Flowers, said "Sounds good to me - all in favor?" All hands went up and we went home happy. Following that in the mid-80's, CF had its own Race Group and there were full 30 car grids at many NER races.

[Jerry Sloot]

so.....someone wants to create another rule....stuff that. if you are racing for the fun of it and are way past "gosh i git another trophy", you don't need no stinking tire rule. You'll run what you can and buy what you can afford with or without any rule anyway. signing off as: will not run CF next year because of the tire rule. [and some around this end of the country might say - "good riddance, Eye" - but then it's their problem if they have that sort of an attitude about people - i just have an opinion about spec tires]

[ThinkFast]

Just to clarify,
Cal Club already has a spec tire for CF. We're talking about running GY600 for FF in Regionals. I'm not sure how that would fly with out of area racers.

[mark defer]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I run new tires each weekend...Nationals and Regionals.

However, careful consideration should be given to the spec tire issue. If it produces larger fields we all win. The largest single cost for all of us are tires. The problem might be how to quantify increased participation due to reduced tires cost.

[DENIS]

I mentioned a long time ago that this same issue was brought up on the 'other car' and we voted it down for the simple reason that while hard tires are a fine change to keep the cost down on the surface, what happens when someone buys a new set of them anyhow and runs against you three weekend old ones? Same problem as now. I don't disagree with keeping costs in check, but I'd like to see or hear of a number of racers doing this on a test basis for enough time to verify its value. Then get one guy on new tires and let's see what happens to the rest. The only ways to keep this headed right is to be sure that new tires offer little or no advantage or you can spec the same set of tires be used for a given number of events perhaps.

[Scott Dick]

Garey

++ Just to clarify, Cal Club already has a spec tire for CF. We're talking about running GY600 for FF in Regionals. I'm not sure how that would fly with out of area racers. ++

Implementing a spec tire on a GCR National class (FF) will be much harder to accomplish that one regional specific class (CF). The change would have to be requested in the Supplemental Regulations included with sanction application for the event. The change would then have to be approved by Club Racing with input from the Competition Board. Because of the effect on out of region racers, I doubt if such a request would be approved.

If your group wanted to use GY600, you could develop a local agreement or understanding. However, you would have no recourse for a competitor running a different tire.

Terry

[ThinkFast]

Terry,
Our last FF Regional included several guys running GY 600's as a test. One guy ran a treaded tire. This was all agreed to via communication prior to the event.

Does ANY other Region run a spec tire for FF in Regionals?
Could we get a YES or NO from people in all the regions?

[Tonis Kasemets]

From the "for what it's worth" file from a guy who doesn't even road race, (imaging the nerve!) I can't help but wonder what a Spec Tire rule would do for you unless significantly longer life was available with little performance degredation.

With today's tires, a new set will give you an advantage almost every time, right? Spec tire allows only one brand to be use, so what's the difference what that brand is if new tires are that much better than older ones. If I really want to win, I'll just show up with new skins every weekend.

If you can find a tire that has lower grip, but long life with little performance difference from a new tire to say a four weekend old tire, than you have something that will save everyone money.

[Jeff Smith]

After running a pretty busy season, that isnt over yet, I can relay my experiences with the Hoosier R60. I have been getting consistent grip for about 20 cycles.
Sticker tires didnt feel to be faster but I only ran 3 to 4 laps to scuff them in.
When the grip goes away it is very obvious, your mild mannered steed will push on entry and then wag it's tail on exit.
My opinion is that the spec tire rule did save me money this season. I would not have bought tires for every event, had there been no tire rule, but would have bought several more sets for the "more important" races.

EYE: I understand that you dont like the tire rule, but answer me this....did your set of hoosiers feel the same at your last race as it did back in Nov when we bought the first sets? And FWIW, a CF came within 1/2 a car length of beating the winning FF at the SIC. The R60's had 12 cycles plus what ever Steve ran at Atlanta, and the goodyear shod FF had new tires that weekend...kinda makes you think, huh?

John

[Jeff Smith]

Also forgot to mention that the reason we are running the Hoosiers is they gave us a better price, around 500 a set mounted and balanced.

John

[harshda]

As Garey pointed out, what we're trying to do is run a spec tire in FF. CF already runs American Racer spec tires.

The GY R600 are being run as a spec tire for CFC around here, and the tires stay consistent, with
very little grip degradation, for 3+ weekends. That
is a test day, and two practice, qualifying, race,
per weekend. We are also getting a better price than
on R160s. So, we should be able to save money,
because the tires are chaper, and they stay
consistent through the life of the tire. We had guys
running 15+ heat cycles on R160s, and running 2 to
3 seconds behind people running stickers.

So, what I gather from this discussion, is that we
have two choices to run a spec tire on FF (not CF)

1) we all agree to show up with the spec tire, but
if somebody shows up with R160s (or even R430)
the rest of us are screwed.

2) We can create a new, regional only, class, which
meets all the rules for FF, except it requires
spec tires. We can call it FGY or something
like that.

BTW, regarding the comment about just having fun
and running whatever tire you want. Yes, we're
all here to have fun. Most of us don't care that
much about points at the end of the year, mainly
because we currently can't afford to run enough
races to accumulate enough points. However, if
everybody is running R160s and I'm running R600s,
I'll be running alone at the end of the pack, and
that's not nearly as much fun as having somebody
to run with.

Regarding car number increases. We don't have any
hard data, yet. I know of at least two cars that
stayed home this seasson because of budget, and
one of the drivers tells us he would have run if
he didn't have to buy new tires each weekend. I
only raced two weekends, and didn't make at least
two weekends because of the tire expense. The
only data point that I have is that for the last
race weekend, a tripple regional, we had the
largest FF field that we've had in two years, and
it was largely due to the idea of the spec tire.
And, that didn't include two drivers who had other
commitements for that weekend, and would have run
otherwise.

Thank you very much for all the input. Any more
input is certainly appreciated. Garey, thanks for
staying on top of this as well.

Gerry.

[ThinkFast]

Hey Gerry,
Don't worry about running the 600's - I'll be in the back of the pack for a while myself!

[Jerry Sloot]

Yo Tico....the fellow that did not race saying it was his budget and his having to buy new tires could have raced anyway.....but he might have been at a disadvantage on older tires....my heart does not go out to him; [people can even race on flat spotted]he's into excuses not racing, he's into winning not racing IMHO...i have raced on GY R160's that were over 20 cycles old....man were they loose but i finished and had fun and my budget was manageable. Come on, tire rules are like many other rules - an attempt to level a playing field and keep costs down but they really only appear to work when one assumes a little but refuses to admit the assumption. signing off "Eye don't need any more $12.00 trophies, got some"

[harshda]

Yo EYE... yes, anybody can go out there and run tires
with the cords showing. If you want to run cheap,
you can get a set of Toyo Proxes RA-1 for around
$450, run two seasons on them, and be 5 sec slower
than the guys running sticker R160. If I want to
go turn laps around the track, I'll stop running
SCCA. It's a lot cheaper to go run a test day, and
you get a lot more track time. It's not that these
guys are "into winning", we're all into "racing".
Racing implies you have somebody to race with. If
I'm the only guy running threaded tires, the only
racing I'll do is on my rear view mirrors, looking
for everybody else to pass me. The idea is to have
an affordable, level field, hopefully increasing
the number of cars, so we can have fun "racing".

I have a few $12.00 trophies, plus a couple $5
checkered flags. No, I don't need any more of
those. But I'll tell you, I'm out there to win.
I don't do things half-assed. I set my goal, and
go get it. If one guy runs R160's and everybody
else runs R600's, that's cool...my competition is
the guys on the R600's, and I'll be there to win
on that class. If I'm the only guy running hard
tires, then I have nobody to race with. If my
goal that day is to get seat time, and test the
car, then that's fine. But if I want to race,
I'm going to race to win.

Tx,

Gerry.

[weldsports]

Class rules are designed to provide a level playing field for competitors to enhance the competition experience. Some playing fields are more level than others. Anything we can do to take costs out of racing creates a more level playing field, because it reduces the advantage those with big budgets have over those of us who struggle financially to make one more race.

When I first started racing, my modest goal was to not finish last. Goal accomplished, my next goal was to be a competitive mid-pack runner and maybe steal a podium or two. Done. Now I want to win races. I'm not satisfied with turning laps at the back of the pack. I want to go wheel to wheel with the best in my class at a regional level. To do this, I have to buy a new set of tires for each weekend, because new tires make a big difference.

So I only run a few races a year, because that's all I can afford to run. A tire rule that specifies a tire that will remain competitive for 3 or 4 race weekends means I can run more races in a season. I'm not the only one who feels this way. I don't really care about the $12.00 trophy. I just want to kick butt on my fellow competitors.

I'm sure that those with big budgets will continue to buy new tires each weekend, even though it won't represent a competitive edge to them. That doesn't matter. What does matter is that the budget racer on 3 weekend old tires will be just as competitive. Heck, this also means that there will be perfectly good and competitive used tires available for the budget minded racer, as opposed to crappy used tires that are 1 to 2 seconds a lap slower than when they were new. Woo hoo! It gets cheaper and cheaper.

So you see, this does level the playing field a bit and increases the level of competition and fun for everyone involved, regardless of budget.

[Neil Porter]

As an CFC driver who has raced on these tires for the entire season I feel that I can comment on this discussion (hey FF guys chime in on F2000.com all the time [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). I have found these tires to be very consistant, even a little better after they have a few heat cycles on them. I set a lap time 2.2s off the FC lap record on the 17th lap of my sixth race on these tires (I drive an 89 Reynard). The lap record was set by a driver that I can only hope someday to be as good as, and he was in an ex-Primus '00 VD on sticker R430's. My point is that these tires are pretty competitive as I was ahead of a large part of the FC field.

I started CFC out here and after much debate we decided to go with a spec tire. At the start of the season CFC has one car, mine, we now have 8 and counting. Every single driver has said that he bought an CFC legal car because of the tire rule. By running this tire a driver can now dedicate that much more to the rest of his racing budget, wheather that be for motor, shocks or just racing more often, everyone wins.

I also ran FF for 3 years and the reason I quite was because of the cost of tires. It's just plain stupid that we pay $600+ for 1.5 weekend tires. If the entire field slows down by 1.5-2s then who really cares? Especially if you can get your fields to increase because of the lowered costs.

[SCOTT FLATT]

Naive question here: if what you're after is to have a bunch of guys to race with (trophies be damned!), why not round up all the like-minded driver's in your class and come to a gentlemen/gentlewomen's agreement about tires? Create your own virtual class.

Jon

[weldsports]

Jon: Thought about it, also thinking about other alternatives. We even had an unofficial Formula Ford Tire Challenge Championship over the Labor Day weekend, which was very successful, and showed tremendous support for this idea from within the FF ranks.

The problem with an informal "agreement" is that eventually it loses support. You can't guarantee that the individuals who are participating will always run the same events, and eventually everyone simply conforms to the official class rules.

Also, since we already have an SF class, we could expand the rules of the SF class to include any FF running the GY R-600 spec tire. However, I don't think the guys currently running SF, with their out-board springs would appreciate being tromped on by the new-comers.

Another thing to consider is the competitive nature of racing in general and FF in particular. I used to run SF, and moved up to FF specifically so I could run for first overall. In other words, I want to be top dog in FF at the regional level. I suspect the other FF drivers feel the same way. I can't think of very many FF drivers running their Swift DB-1, or VD-02 in the SF class who would enjoy watching others in the same type of cars running FF with R-160s pass them up. It just wouldn't do. We all want to be first.

The real solution is to have a Spec tire for FF at the regional level. This has no affect on National events. It is for Regional events only.

So, to get back to the main reason for this thread, we are looking to hear from other regions who have successfully implemented Regional only rules for National class cars (such as a spec tire).

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

Jim

[Jerry Sloot]

fame is fleeting, top dog. obviously you are defining racing as out to win, try out to compete instead and if we all would do that then the grids would be bigger.

[LarryWinkelman]

You might talk to some of the FF guys in SF Region.A number of years ago the Regional FF drivers voted to use the McCreary tire that CF and SF classes were using. My understanding was that Denver said no and it never happened.

[SCOTT FLATT]

Jim,

Good points. From my naive (i.e. inexperienced) point of view, "first" seems to be a relative thing. When you have multiple classes per run group, there are several people that finish in "virtual" first place, and only one true first place finisher. Hence my thought of a "virtual" class.

If you wanted, everybody in the virtual class could pitch in a buck or two and buy a trophy (or case of beer) for the virtual winner of the virtual class. Collection to be done at pre-grid to insure the proper tires are being used. Sure the SCCA might not acknowledge your "win", but you would still have some validation of your "first" place finish. You could still brag to your buddies that you won. You could still talk trash to your virtual class competitors ("I kicked your GY R600 wearin' butt!"). You could still drive home Sunday evening with the satisfaction that you competed fairly and won.

If your goal is truely to have good, competitive racing, what would be the difference between a virtual win and an official win? I'm genuinely curious, not just taking shots at folks.

Jon

[Neil Porter]

Jon the reason I got the spec-tire deal done in CFC was to lower costs. I could run in the top three or four in FC but I didn't want to have to spend $625+ for tires to do it. Now CFC is a regional only class so the the guys running in it don't have to worry about different set-ups for different tires (ie. national vs regional set-ups). The bottom line is we have increased our run group CFC/FC by 8 cars and counting by adding this class. The majority of the drivers in CFC bought into the class because of the spec-tire and it's low cost. FF in Cal Club is on life support and Jim and Gerry are doing what ever it takes to get the heartbeat going again. I think that if FF goes this route you will see an increase in Regional entries and that is a good thing.

EYE as for wanting to run up front what exactly is wrong with that? The SCCA is about racing not just doing laps, I can't understand why you would not want to drive your best and try to win? I fully understand where Jim is coming from. His desire to run up front is why they call it racing, if all you care about is track time there are plenty of less expensive ways to get it.

[USF2000]

Michael, I have a couple of questions, first, what was the process to get this approved, was it just your local region or do you need to get divisional approval?

Second, how many races (heat cycles) do you get out of the GY 600's?

Thanks-Dave

[size="1"][ October 11, 2002, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Dave Hopple ][/size]

[Neil Porter]

To get the class approved I wrote the rules, which included the spec-tire, and submitted them to the comp committee. The comp committe then sent the recomendation to the BoG who voted to approve the class. This is basically the same process that is in every region. You can do anything you want at a regional level to any class that is not a nationally recognized class. What I mean by this is you cannot change ITA rules regarding weight for example but you could have the class run a spec tire. Basically you can't re-write the GCR.

I have 16 heat cycles on this set. I plan on doing one more complete race weekend on them before buying a new set. These tires seem to have endless life. Like I said I put down my fastest ever lap (a lap that would have had me 3rd on the FC grid) on my 17th lap of the sixth race on these tires. My cost per race on these tires is less than 3/4 of what I was spending on kart tires! This is the best way to increase the fields for FF. Lower the costs and they will come!!!

[SCOTT FLATT]

Hey Michael,

Thanks for the info. As someone who's saving his pennies to join the fray, I think a spec tire regulation is an attractive feature. I'm just probing the possibility of a less bureaucratic path to achieve the goal, even on a short-term basis while the wheels of governance churn.

Good discussion.
Jon

[Neil Porter]

Here's a hint on how to get things done more quickly...get involved. I am a BoG member as is Jim Olsen, Gerry is the small bore open wheel rep to the comp committee. If your standing on the sidelines now don't wait..work a corner or registration or pre-grid. Being involved in the SCCA can mean a lot more than just driving.

[size="1"][ October 11, 2002, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

[harshda]

OK, back to the original topic. Sounds like the
SF people tried to get this approved, and couldn't
get it past denver. However, FV in SF region runs
on a spec tire, it's on their sup regulations, and
FV is a national class. How the heck did they get
this done?

The easy way is to create a new class, as Michael
did with CFC. I already have the rules written for
this class...need to pick a name. But wanted to
check if there was a way to modify the FF Regional
rules.

Thanks for all the input.

Gerry
PS/ Mikey, good sales pitch...gotta get those new
people involved.

[ThinkFast]

After reading Michael's reply about getting CFC started in Cal Club, I decided to actually open up the GCR. He mentioned that you can't re-write the GCR and according to the GCR, Formula Category Specifications, Section D.12. Tires
Per Section 11.2.1.D of the GCR.
Which leads us to 11.2.1.D:
Tires - 120 mph-rated or better unless otherwise specified or controlled.
Seems to me that a Region may specify a tire if they choose.
I'm wondering why SF Region couldn't get this done. I don't see a problem unless they were trying to enforce this for National events. It seems perfectly legit for Regional events. I also don't see a down side.

[size="1"][ October 13, 2002, 12:18 AM: Message edited by: Garey Guzman ][/size]

[harshda]

Garey,

Thanks for that reference. It can certainly be read
as "you can specify any tire you want, as long as
it's rated for 120mph+". You can also read it as
"there are no tire specifications anywhere in the
GCR, other than the tire being rated at 120mph+,
therefore the regions can't force me to run a spec
tire". Like so many things in the GCR, it's open to
interpretation. I'd like to hear what people with
tech and rule inspections read on this rule.

Greg Mercurio, you're opinion on this matter would
be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Gerry.

[Key guy]

Whatever tire you decide to use doesn't matter. If you want to have the best chances you will go with a new set of tires for the weekend. That would be the logical thinking point to start from.
Go with a manufacturer who is willing to support the class with a low cost tire package.

[Chuck Gillis]

Gerry: For classes controlled by the GCR, i.e. Formula Ford, there is no tire rule beyond what you state. You are free to run Z rated street tires if you want. You might get some funny looks in Tech, and your racing buddies might think you've gone soft in the head, but you are not precluded from doing so.

However, Regions are allowed to develop and issue supplemental rules to the GCR, and they can and do specify tires for certain classes in those "supps". We specify American Racer for Spec Ford, Club Ford, and FV.

I'm not sure what the thrust for a spec tire is, those with a large tire budget will change tires more often than those that don't, and that few 10ths per lap will make a difference over time.
gm

[USF2000]

[quote]I'm not sure what the thrust for a spec tire is, those with a large tire budget will change tires more often than those that don't, and that few 10ths per lap will make a difference over time.[/quote]Greg, Yep your right, I think this is about getting more participation on the SCCA Regional level in Formula Ford by going to a Hard "Spec" tire like a Hoosier R60 or GY 600, (this is just a theory) but being able to run 4 (or a season) races on the same set of tires reduces your weekend costs.

What do we have to loose by somebody trying this somewhere next year and letting the rest of us in FF know how it worked (I'm not talking about a National rule proposal for a spec tire, just for Regionals) -Dave

[size="1"][ October 15, 2002, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hopple ][/size]

[Scott Pinkney]

Having participated in the recent "tire challenge" at Buttonwillow where we ran Goodyear 600's, I can tell you that running a Spec tire for regionals is simply a common sense alternative to having to purchase one or two sets of 160's for a weekend. The fact that I can now race a number of weekends on one set of tires absolutely permits me to participate in more weekends than in the past. If someone wants to buy new 600's for every race, so be it. It will just mean a greater level of satisfaction for me when I kick their butt (hopefully). It is obvious that we need to do something to stimulate participation. With as many formula fords out there as I understand there are, it just sucks to enter a race, where you are lucky to have more than a few competitors.

[ThinkFast]

Sam's response is exactly the "thrust for a spec tire". I was also at the race but can't afford to buy tires every weekend. In fact, I'm still using the GY 160's I got with the car last year! As a new driver, I know that I can make up a lot more time by improving my driving skills than getting new tires. There will come a time (I hope) when having a new set will get me on pole but I have a ways to go. I hope that we can get the GY 600's into our Regional Supp rules for this coming year and I hope that I've improved enough to be able to compete for a podium finish.

[Neil Porter]

Having spent a full season on the same set of these tires I can tell you that they are BETTER after several heat cycles than they are when new. I look forward to racing against guys with stickers as they, not I, will be at a dissadvantage. Aside from crash damage and blown motors your biggest expense for the weekend wiil be your tire bill. Why not lower it? If everyone slows down 1.5s so what, it's equal for everyone. Even better sell your FF and buy some wings ;) CFC for everyone!!!

[size="1"][ October 15, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

[harshda]

OK Mike, we all know you're trying to sell your
class :)

Sam and Garey have both described the idea for the
tire rule. There are quite a few FF cars that are
staying in the garage due to cost of running them,
and tires are the biggest contribuitor to that cost.
Yes, there are a few cars that won't come out even
on spec tires. But if we can get the cars that run
2 weekends to show up at every event, our numbers
will increase significantly.

OK, lets say a new set of R600 is 1/10's faster than
a 10 cycle set (and Michaell's data shows otherwise).
That's something you can overcome with driving.
An old set of R160s is "seconds" slower than a new
set. I've easily picked up 1 or 2 seconds at
Buttonwillow going from an 8 heat cycle to a
scrubbed set.

Greg, thanks a lot for the input. The FV tire was
one of the questions I needed answered.

So, we'll be the guinea pigs out here in CalClub,
and we'll let you guys know how the whole spec tire
deal works out.

Gerry.