Safety: A Million Questions

[Davidmachx]

I have a million question. I had my son sit in the Vee to start figuring out how to get this ready for the VARA school in January.. Son is turning 16 next week and is growing like crazy. I have a bunch of photos I took and would like options and suggestions please.
The first is about the safety belts. Where does the bar need to be, parallel to his shoulders? So the belts comes over correctly or angled down as in the picture?
The Vee has no roll hoop where the gauges are. Does have a heavy duty metal gage/dash. Looks welded in. Thoughts to weld a hoop behind it?
I have asked about the steering before. The steering box and ackerman ( hope I have the right term) Are huge and heavy and really dangerous.. Everywhere else in the world seem to allow for modern steering systems. Will this break rules for participation in groups like VARA or Scca? Is there a solution to raise the tie rods up higher and have a smaller ackerman?
My sons feet are growing by the day. The tips of his toes are rubbing the fiberglass bodywork... do we do up into the fiberglass or create heel pockets in the floor pan?
Any good videos on repairing the fiberglass and prepare he body work for Vees
A half million questions to go.. but I'll stop here.
Thanks
David

[S Lathrop]

The roll bar is a absolutely not legal in SCCA. Adding a cap section such as you have here and is on all Spec Racers is not allowed. Among other things, the braces are likely more than 6 inches below the top of the added hoop.

I personally like the idea of a deformable structure on top of the main roll bar structure. But the bracing should include any added structure and be within 6 inches of the top of the combined structure. I had a roll bar shear off just above the braces. In that case the roll bar was braced both front and rear and all the braces at the same level.

The shoulder harness should be at 90 to the driver's spine. Any where below that point, the spine will be compressed in a forward impact. Above 90 degrees and the harness will not provide the necessary restraint in the vertical direction. Something I have never seen is a second set of belts going over the driver's shoulders and mounted to the bottom of the seat. These would serve to keep the driver down but not compress his spine if he were thrown forward.

I would recommend that you get some padding on the steering mechanism to protect you drivers feet and legs. Something like Styrofoam and not rubber. From a functional stand point, the steering system you have is very good. But it does infringe into the driver's space and in a severe accident could become an issue. This is one reason the Citation FVs have the steering system they do.

[Steve Davis]

David,
You should review the rules on driver restraint and roll bar structures in the latest GCR. You ask about the front roll over hoop (non-existent in this car). IIRC the rules require that both the front and rear roll hoops be "one continous piece" and extend all the way to the top of the bottom frame rail. The "heavy duty dash" that you have will not begin to support the car if it should go upside down .. especially if it was MOVING at the time.
You can get a current copy of the GCR at
https://www.scca.com/downloads/37798...september-2017
Most vintage groups base their rules on the SCCA GCR although many use a much older version ... like early 70's.. to eliminate many of the "improvements" that have been implemented since 'vintage days' that have increased speeds. I think they DO allow modifications for safety - like front roll hoop, fire systems and fuel cells. You should check with your perferred vintage group to be sure.

In the GCR, most of the wording in the driver restraint section (9.9.3.18, page 69) with drawings a couple pages later showing the driver in a mostly upright position. Your son, in that laydown position will definitely need a 6 point harness with leg straps wrapping around this thighs to prohibit submarining in a head on collision - even a slow one.

To my eye, you will also have to shorten the width of the brake pedal a bit. Likely, in order to drive THAT car he would also need to lose a few toes .. or wear the smallest shoes he could squeeze into. My old friend, KP Jones used to wear ballet slippers. I think Harvey Templeton did as well. Now, they would need to be LEATHER ballet slippers.

Keep safety first and if you can't resolve the issues, BUY ANOTHER CAR .. or build one. You missed a great deal on a Mysterian roller that sold just last week. Wouldn't have been useful for vintage, but a fine, well built SCCA racer. You could also ask around about a rental. Bill Griffith (Texas.. Dallas area?) has about 20 vintage cars and rents most of them. He can probably help you a LOT about how to fit your son into your chassis .. or if it is even possible. You can find him at
Bigger Hammer Racing

Good luck,

[BLS]

The pair of Steve's have great advice.

I would just add, as a driver with size 14 feet, get those tennis shoes off and check with a driving shoe a couple sizes smaller than shoe size. As a young man I used leather moccasins, still do as an old man. Nothing else worked. Ballet shoes is a good idea as well, never thought of that one.

[S Lathrop]

When I drove, I used wrestling boots that were all leather. They had soles that were less than 1/4 inch thick. I has a shoe repair shop stitch a bit of leather on the side of my right boot where I worked the gas pedal under braking.

Any shoe that was much bigger than my foot would not work.

[captain_pants]

These are the skinniest/softest shoes I've found: https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...0162/overview/

RJS from Summit, maybe elsewhere too. They wear like nomex socks with suede around the outside and a super-thin sole glued on. They're noticeably thinner than the Asics wrestling shoes I've been using for 15+ years. I downsized from my regular shoes and let them break in. Aside from the heel cup stiffener, the RJS have no structure other than nomex and suede.

I have no connection to RJS or Summit; just sharing what I've found. I'm amazed how bulky and stiff every other 'racing' shoe I've tried on is.

[R. Pare]

Look also at Appaloosa ( horse) show boots, but the ones without heels.

Whatever you get for him,they will need to be a couple sizes narrower than his street shoes so that the soles do NOT extend sideways out past the sides of his foot, and a size or two shorter than normal so that his toes start getting a little cramped. He won't want to walk around in them much, but they will be fine when driving (he shouldn't be walking around in them anyway!).

[BorkRacing]

I wear a 13 shoe, I just used these Alpinestars Tech 1-T boots in size 12 which are actually closer to 11 in length of most other race boots. They fit for racing and are very thin also. http://winecountrymotorsports.com/pr...oducts_id=1606

Remember, when standing your foot spreads, without weight on it the size shrinks down a size or two. They are race boots not walking shoes.

Listen to all the above posts. Great advice.

Robby

[Davidmachx]

The pair of Steve's have great advice.

I would just add, as a driver with size 14 feet, get those tennis shoes off and check with a driving shoe a couple sizes smaller than shoe size. As a young man I used leather moccasins, still do as an old man. Nothing else worked. Ballet shoes is a good idea as well, never thought of that one.

Lol. Those are driving shoes.Bought them in the U.K. How do I tell a 16 year old he has to wear ballet shoes.. too funny

[R. Pare]

. How do I tell a 16 year old he has to wear ballet shoes.. too funny

Tell him that if he can't get his feet to fit, he can't drive! He'll change his mind real quick!

[FVRacer21]

Interesting car - looks like a Lynx (Caracal) copy with Lazer(Womer etc.) steering and Citation brake masters...

If your son is 2" under the original roll hoop (broom handle parallel to ground) then Fred Clark at Caracal can probably supply a front roll hoop. Just check the inside dimensions of the upper frame rails if not standard Lynx. Steve D is right it SHOULD go to the bottom frame rail but that is not mandatory.

You should cut out existing dash and put the front hoop over the uprights. The Lynx had small gussets but you might be able to put larger ones on depending on your body work.

If you move the steering links up you do not change the Ackerman - but you might change the bump steer. Probably have to section and reweld the front tubes as that is where you will have the problem on bump.

I am working on a proposal for rules change for a steering rack, but with all the brew-ha-ha about disc brakes - it is years away......

Nothing to add to racing show comments.

Belts look okay - just remember they have to be dated and current.

I understand the suggestion to look for another car - but some times you have to dance with the girl you brought.

ChrisZ

[Davidmachx]

Interesting car - looks like a Lynx (Caracal) copy with Lazer(Womer etc.) steering and Citation brake masters...

If your son is 2" under the original roll hoop (broom handle parallel to ground) then Fred Clark at Caracal can probably supply a front roll hoop. Just check the inside dimensions of the upper frame rails if not standard Lynx. Steve D is right it SHOULD go to the bottom frame rail but that is not mandatory.

You should cut out existing dash and put the front hoop over the uprights. The Lynx had small gussets but you might be able to put larger ones on depending on your body work.

If you move the steering links up you do not change the Ackerman - but you might change the bump steer. Probably have to section and reweld the front tubes as that is where you will have the problem on bump.

I am working on a proposal for rules change for a steering rack, but with all the brew-ha-ha about disc brakes - it is years away......

Nothing to add to racing show comments.

Belts look okay - just remember they have to be dated and current.

I understand the suggestion to look for another car - but some times you have to dance with the girl you brought.

ChrisZ

I am told it is a Lynx B - see pic. Has chassis number. Would love to find the history as well. How do you move the steering links up? Thank you

[BLS]

Lol. Those are driving shoes.Bought them in the U.K. How do I tell a 16 year old he has to wear ballet shoes.. too funny

Oops.


When I was 24 years old I got talked into taking ballet lessons. Did it for a couple years and endured the snickers from my friends.

All of whom quit snickering when they realized who I was taking lessons with for an hour several times a week.

[Purple Frog]

The HANS website has great info on safety belt placement.

As others have said; son needs smaller tighter shoes.

The first two posts from the Steves need you upmost attention. Vees have been known to get inverted. That rollhoop is dangerous. Just because one sanctioning body may let you get away with it, doesn't mean it is safe.

[Davidmachx]

The roll bar is a absolutely not legal in SCCA. Adding a cap section such as you have here and is on all Spec Racers is not allowed. Among other things, the braces are likely more than 6 inches below the top of the added hoop.

I personally like the idea of a deformable structure on top of the main roll bar structure. But the bracing should include any added structure and be within 6 inches of the top of the combined structure. I had a roll bar shear off just above the braces. In that case the roll bar was braced both front and rear and all the braces at the same level.

The shoulder harness should be at 90 to the driver's spine. Any where below that point, the spine will be compressed in a forward impact. Above 90 degrees and the harness will not provide the necessary restraint in the vertical direction. Something I have never seen is a second set of belts going over the driver's shoulders and mounted to the bottom of the seat. These would serve to keep the driver down but not compress his spine if he were thrown forward.

I would recommend that you get some padding on the steering mechanism to protect you drivers feet and legs. Something like Styrofoam and not rubber. From a functional stand point, the steering system you have is very good. But it does infringe into the driver's space and in a severe accident could become an issue. This is one reason the Citation FVs have the steering system they do.

Hi thank you for the information. I had a couple questions from your answers. On the roll bar comment. I've looked at a bunch of photos and found several Vee's with added bars to secure the roll hoops on the engine side of the hoop. I marked up a photo of ours..
And included one of similar set up I am speaking of..
The other question is your comment the belts should be at 90 degrees to the spine.. I guess I still don't understand what point are you measuring the 90 degrees? Can you provide a simple line drawing or mark up the photo to show what you described?

[S Lathrop]

Roll Bar. The rules are that the roll bar has to be braced forward. The angle between the braces and the roll bar may not be less than 30 degrees. Finally those braces must be with in 6 inches of the top of the hoop. Finally the roll bar has to be a continuous hoop. The roll bar on you car is legal without the extension. With the extension it fails the requirements for bracing and not being a continuous hoop. Adding braces to the rear will not meet the bracing requirements.

The shoulder harness are mounted below your son's shoulders. If he were to be thrown forward, as he would be in a front end impact, the shoulder belts will pull down on your son's shoulders, compressing his spine. Not a good result. The shoulder harness should be mounted so that as he presses forward, the bents do not press down on his shoulders. If the belts from the mounting point to his spine are 90 degrees and are tangent to the top of his shoulders, his spine will not be compressed.

Finally, something I did not mention before, You need a head rest. This is really critical in a rear impact. When your son presses back, he should have support along his entire spine to the base of the helmet and the helmet should be supported equally. Having no support for the neck from shoulders to the helmet runs the risk of a severe neck injury. If you look at the bead seats for Indy cars they go up the the base of the helmets. You should do no less in a FV.

[Eric Little]

The shoulder harness are mounted below your son's shoulders. If he were to be thrown forward, as he would be in a front end impact, the shoulder belts will pull down on your son's shoulders, compressing his spine. Not a good result. The shoulder harness should be mounted so that as he presses forward, the bents do not press down on his shoulders. If the belts from the mounting point to his spine are 90 degrees and are tangent to the top of his shoulders, his spine will not be compressed.

A bit more information on belt angles here:

http://www.willans.com/download-docu...-club-6-saloon

and here:

http://www.crowenterprizes.com/Pages/Install.html

and here:

https://www.schrothracing.com/docs/C...structions.pdf (a lot of good information on safety on their site)

Drawing a horizontal line from the shoulders that is parallel to the ground, the belt should be between 0 and 10 degrees down (according to Crow) or 0 and 20 degrees down (according to Willans and Schroth).

I do not have a good measure from that picture but it sure does look like more than 20 degrees down.

I had to make the opposite adjustment on mine when I bought my FF. The mount was too high producing about a 10 ~15 degree upward angle. The result was that the belts would not retain the neck restraint. Which brings me to another point, I believe you should take that measurement with the neck restraint on as it will raise the belt at the drivers shoulders by a bit (the Schroth site shows the measurement taken with the neck restraint while the other two show just shoulders).

I agree with Steve that the angle of those belts is critical.

Eric Little

[Rick Kirchner]

Dave - call Wayne Michell. He's VARAs chief of tech, owns dog-rings.com, built the March formula Fords, and has copied many a frame for broken beyond all reasonable repair formula cars. He's in Cardiff. If he can't get you fixed up he will suggest someone.

[pacratt]

Hi thank you for the information. I had a couple questions from your answers. On the roll bar comment. I've looked at a bunch of photos and found several Vee's with added bars to secure the roll hoops on the engine side of the hoop. I marked up a photo of ours..
And included one of similar set up I am speaking of..
The other question is your comment the belts should be at 90 degrees to the spine.. I guess I still don't understand what point are you measuring the 90 degrees? Can you provide a simple line drawing or mark up the photo to show what you described?

Your simulated rearward braces will not work.
For Vintage, you have to run with a fan/generator and the braces you drew go right through the area of the fan shroud.
I've attached a photo of the only rearward brace that really fits a Lynx-B.
Also, I would cut off the top 10"-12" of the main roll hoop and forward braces, then install a new (taller) piece installed with new forward braces. It's the best & safest way to correct the height issue. AND it will look MUCH nicer.
Finally...although it's not required for Vintage, I strongly agree with the notion of adding a front roll hoop. It can be done without affecting the look of the car and provides much-needed safety for roll-overs...the dash plate and the front shock towers are NOT a support structure in roll over - they fold like paper.

[Rick Kirchner]

not all clubs require the shroud.

Wayne knows the VARA and SVRA/HSR rules inside and out