off topic content removed
off topic content removed
Last edited by BeerBudgetRacing; 08.02.17 at 6:13 PM.
off topic content removed
Get back to FC participation!
Last edited by BeerBudgetRacing; 08.02.17 at 6:13 PM.
updated entry list
As of today there are 17 entries in FC!
Nice job - well represented.
Allaer
Armington
Gilkes
Hoops
Hutchison
LaRue
Marino
McCarthy
McCusker
Minor
Occhipinti
Rocco
Shaffer
Tollefsen
Tomais
Wilson
Woods
I hate to pee on the parade because I am excited that we have that number of cars, but now the issue is how we plan to run with FE and FM on the track as one group. I get that its the same for everyone but my concern is that we'll have 72 cars on a 2.5 mile track.
Any thoughts or suggestions, options or should I even care? I get that this is Indy and the car count is high because we all want to run there but now comes the issue of how good the racing will be.
Personally I would rather have 10 minutes with 30 cars than 20 with 72. Just my opinion.
Bring on the comments.
Brian
Hey Brian , maybe you guys can petition to get moved in with the Vee's. Then there would only be 55 in each group
This is only meant as a joke before people get mad at me.
JR
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most ! "
Some merit in that for sure, but whoever goes 'second' 10 minutes in the 20 minute window is subject to clean up effects, etc.Originally Posted by BrianT1
How about splitting the days instead, so instead of 4 crowded sessions, you get fewer uncrowded?
eg: FC/FE/FM all together on Monday, then one session each class only on Tue, Wed, or Thursday; decide far enough in advance to rule out accusations of weather forecast favoritism. So you gamble on possible weather influence rather than the almost assured traffic influence. Yes, less track time, but better track time?
Two class groups like FA/P2 could split Mon+Wed and Tue+Thu for example. Same weather risks. Just a thought.
The real race will be to get to grid first. Folks will be lining cars up at dawn or the night before.
The question is can 72 cars get off grid before the leader comes around. So, some will be warming up tires while others are balls to wall. Going to be fun.
How fast are Indy clean up crews? Could be session time runs out on pit lane while under black flag. It will be the same for all. The first hot lap may prove to be very important.
I am hoping SCCA will make some adjustments to the race groups. Possibly FA, FB and FC combined, that's 57 cars. P1 and P2 combined, approximately 48 cars. FE and FM, about 55 cars. Still a lot, but better than 72 cars on track together.
qualifying sessions
The race to the grid was eliminated some time ago.
Qualifying Grid:? Grid positions for the first qualifying session for each class will be by finishing position from the Hoosier SCCA Super Tour Points with thecompetitor with the greatest number of Hoosier SCCA Super Tour Points on pole. Ties will be resolved based on the number of first placefinishes, then second place, then third and beyond as needed. The remaining grid positions will be filled by those entering the Runoffs from the Majors Conference Path, Division Champion Path or Defending National Champion Path based on Runoffsregistration date. Grid Positions for the first qualifying session will be posted at Driver Information on Sunday, September 24, 2017. Gridpositions for qualifying sessions 2, 3 and 4 will be determined by the cumulative fastest times from the previous session(s). This process isNON-PROTESTABLE.
Juggling classes is not likely to happen IMHO. FE has its own race on Sunday; FM/FC race together on Saturday. The most palatable solution would be to give FE two days of qualifying and FM/FC two days of qualifying.
That's not a palatable decision in my eyes. FE doesn't race until Sunday, so we already have 2 days without being on track. Taking 2 qualifying sessions away would mean we are there for 7 days and on track 3! Not acceptable.
Ah. I'm starting to think I need a lawyer on the team more than I need a good crew chief.
In seriousness, I think splitting the groups and giving two days of qualifiers each is a good solution.
While acknowledging that I'm sure he's been getting unsolicited advice from multiple corners, I sent the following to the Chief Steward (Costa Dunias) earlier this week:
= = = = = =
Here are my thoughts on how to adjust the Mon-Thu schedule to provide a better racing experience for the maximum number of people. Granted some folks will be pissed at losing a qualifying session but I'd argue that reducing the congestion in the previously announced qualifying groups will (should) mean fewer FCY and/or BFA situations, so the actual number of green flag laps will be at least equal if not greater.
Based on the pre-registration numbers as of 8/07, here are my suggestions for qualifying:
· SM and SRF3 already will require two groups each for qualifying (+2 groups)
· Split FF & F5 into separate groups (+1 group)
· Give EP its own group
· Take GT3 from GT1/T1 and add it to GTL (+1 group)
· Split FE from FC/FM into its own group (+1 group)
This adds five groups to the 17 already listed, so you'll need 22 qualifying groups with only 18 slots available each day. Obviously things can be adjusted based on their impact on Tech, but I'm attaching a spreadsheet that gives each of those 22 groups three 20-minute sessions from Mon-Thu and still has time for the two Last Chance Qualifying races for SM and SRF3. And because those two classes have completed their (preliminary) qualifying on Wednesday, there's plenty of time for T&S to create the grid sheets for those two races.
BTW - GT1 & GT2 having their first session on Tuesday gives the TransAm teams that might have also qualified for Indy an extra day to prepare after their VIR weekend (Sept 22-24).
= = = = = =
I got the standard (and expected) reply thanking me for my input. It will be interesting to see what "they" (and I don't know who all is involved in making the decision - does Prill hold more sway than Costa?) come up with...
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
Butch, thank you for your input (haha) Seriously, thanks for taking the time to think about the problem they are facing and providing some input. There is nothing simple about putting on an event of this magnitude. Every little change impacts something.
Robert - I imagine there won't be any changes so you will be on track with 70 plus cars for 4 of the 7 days. Quantity vs Quality is the question.
Regardless of what is or is not done there will be some unhappy SCCA members. An event of this magnitude won't fit into the Runoffs model we have become accustomed to without bumps and bruises. Isn't it ironic however that we complain about the lack of participation, the seeming lack of competition to make Runoffs and question the decision to host the event at iconic tracks yet here we are now faced with a problem of too many cars?
John - I'm confident Costa is not making the decision in a vacuum but, as I wrote, I don't know who is involved in the decision-making process. I didn't copy Prill, but now I'm sure at least the CRB is aware of my suggestions!
Do y'all miss me yet?
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
I have to agree with Butch - I would take 3 qualifying sessions to eliminate the FE cars. I get that 4 sessions would be ideal but it is not feasible to have 72 cars on a 2.5 mile track. There will be so many cars and local yellows that it will really be a waste of time. By the time the last car is out of the pits the leader of the group will already be on his second (so called) flying lap. We will be tripping over each other with all the varying speeds.
It would be better to make these adjustments now and not after the first session when it will be a total cluster. At that point it will be to late for any meaningful discussions.
We all signed up for 7 days whether we are on track or not so while it would be great to get as much time on track as possible it makes more sense to have quality over quantity.
I am willing to send my recommendations in as well just need the contact info.
Brian
Hey Brian , maybe you guys can petition to get moved in with the Vee's. Then there would only be 55 in each group
This is only meant as a joke before people get mad at me.
Jeff, I know you are half heartedly kidding but if you can start some conversation with the FE group I think we can get something accomplished here. It will take the majority to get change.
Brian
I know I promised to sit in the corner and be quiet, but I just want to say that we toyed with the qualifying idea at Laguna in 2014. 10 min to FC - then 10 to FE. Then flip-flop the order each day. I think there are only a few of us registered this year that participated at Laguna that year, but in my opinion, it would have helped.
I also believe we should give up a qualifying session to help allow time for extra groups if possible. I think the unprecedented number of entries requires the SCCA to rework the event schedule. It's not like any other Runoffs. So it shouldn't be treated like one.
Honestly, as a person who has raced in the last 6 runoffs, I'm starting to wonder if this is going to be a good idea. That is way too many cars on any size track. It reminds me of the debut race at COTA. That was terrible.
If the schedule and groupings stay the same, it isn't looking like a fun week.
That being said, we only have 17 cars. Realistically no leverage over any other group. As great as that number is for us (we had 25 or so in 2014), we hardly have any bargaining power. Not sure they are going to put us anywhere that benefits us.
I like the suggestions. We need to keep thinking and most importantly, be flexible. You might have less qualifying days or a day off in between, but if it cuts the number down, that is a good thing.
That's my two cents, and once again, I go back into my corner...
Rob Allaer
FC #52
Last edited by rallaer; 08.09.17 at 11:34 PM.
Talked to Butch this morning.
Historically, if you look at major events such as the June Sprints, FC was always combined with FA (and now FB).
e.g. the 2000 Sprints had something like 70 FAs and FCs,
That makes sense. Actually the difference in speeds of the two classes is an advantage. Usually the slowest FA doesn't mess up the FC race.
Twelve to 15 years ago the problems with mixed fields was when FC was combined with FM (and now FE).
The problem being that their lap times are fairly close but generated in different ways.
The FMs hold up the FCs in corners, and then out drag them down the straight. This caused frustration and desperate passing attempts. Ask DaveW how dangerous it got. After 7 national championships he quit SCCA Club racing because of that mix.
It would make sense to me to combine FC with FA and FB.
I always felt safer running FC with FA and FB than in the slower wings and things.
As always YMMV
Not saying FA/FB/FC is not a better combination, but in my suggestion I was looking at minimum disruption to the previously posted qualifying groups. If only from a car number conflict scenario, splitting groups is much easier than combining groups. Also remember that any combined groups such as FC/FM would also have a split start for their championship race (and yes, I'm fully aware a FCY screws the pooch on that), so it's unlikely any FC running on pace would ever see an FM car running on pace.
Finally I saw yesterday where MANY (as in 19) GTL drivers are waiting until just before the late fee kicks in on Aug 22 to register (not gonna let the evil National Office earn interest on MY money, no sir!!!). If that's true in other classes, expect a significant bump in pre-registration numbers before things are done.
I've spent way too much time on this - time to get some work done...
Butch Kummer
2006, 2007, 2010 SARRC GTA Champion
UPDATE on the class structure for the Runoffs Qualifying:
I sent an email to the SCCA regarding qualifying groupings and received this email from Eric Prill.
Thanks for your note. As you can imagine, we’ve received a fair bit of feedback regarding the subscription levels. Chief Steward Costa Dunias, Assistant CS Dennis Dean, Deanna and I have been gathering the input and have already had some preliminary discussions about how to address the qualifying schedule. We have the final Majors this weekend, and will have a better picture of the qualified drivers next week. We’ll give everything consideration and I appreciate you taking the time to offer up some solutions here.
Best regards,
Eric
Qualifying
With the groupings FC/FM/FE, etiquette and caution during qualifying will be in short supply.
In Indy Lights we had a rule that if you stopped a qualifying session in the last 10 minutes, you were would be blacked flagged in the next qualifying session by a time that was 10 minutes minus the time your infraction occurred. So if you caused a full course yellow with 2 minutes to go, you would be blacked flagged 8 minutes before the end of the next qualifying session.
This rule made the last 10 minutes of qualifying very event free.
Some variation of this rule and apply it to any car or several cars that brought out a yellow flag in the last 10 minutes of qualifying might be something to consider.
FC and FM have a long history of not playing nice with each other. FE and FC maybe somewhat less.
If guys play nice, while bad, the grouping can work.
that's a pretty awesome rule.
SVRA does that sometimes. At Indy they used it, I blew the checker on a practice session and got docked three minutes.
FRP has had rules in place for years- stop a practice session and you lose 5 min of the next session, stop the last practice session or a qualifying session and you lose 2 grid positions in a race; blow a checker or black flag in any session and lose 2 grid positions. It makes people pay attention. Most of our events are 'time certain' and any interruption affects everyone.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
I've no dog in either hunt, as that saying goes, but surely the time has come to move one of these three in with the Vee's, no?
From scca lists this a.m.:
"Class Totals: Formula Continental: 18, Formula Enterprises: 36, Formula Mazda: 20"
"Class Totals: Formula Vee: 39"
That's actually a really good idea. Minimal change and would certainly make it better for the group.
We need three more drivers... then we'll no longer be the least represented class! Ha... Come on... let's beat those FM guys!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote