What is this car?

[formula none]

Picking this up Saturday, don't know what it is.
Aluminum tub, rocker front suspension, wings, vw pancake motor, VW swing arm rear suspension with rear drum brakes.
Looks like a hybrid Vee and Super Vee.
Help!

[Amon]

Looks like early Citation FV center section ?

[Steve Demeter]

Home built??

Or cobbled together from what was available.

Long time ago in Cen Div there was a guy who built a FF out of a Dulon front and a Tiga rear.

People called it a "Duga" which he did not like.

Told him to call it a "Tilon"

[Offcamber1]

The front edge of that tub looks vaguely familiar to what I once saw on the chassis jig at John Mills's shop in Detroit. Wild guess, perhaps Lynx Formula Super Vee? John Kalagian used to run one out of Mills's shop.

[formula none]

The seller reports that he thinks the car was built in Indianapolis. With the old technology rear end/drive train, simple tub but more modern front suspension along with what sure looks like a late 70's/early 80's style body package (Mclaren style nose) we kind of thought it might have been built for some promotional/commemorative racing.
The wings look like speedway style set ups.
The side pods are interesting because they serve no purpose whatsoever......
The engine turns out to be a Type 3 1600cc so that seems to match the early Super Vees but nothing else fits that era or class.
I would love to convert it to an IRS rear suspension. Specifically by buying a package ready to install minus trans.

[S Lathrop]

Shriner's parade car. They were built for the Speedway Shriners and there were several different cars built. They generally used VW power plants and had body work adapted from Indy cars. There were a lot of different Indy cars being built in Indy at that time so parts were easy to come by to build these cars.

[formula none]

That sounds like a distinct possibility. Do you have any history on how they used them? What time frame? The car seems to be pretty good quality, not real cheap, as if it was really raced. Has a fuel cell, etc.
I found 8 photos of some shriners cars that are the right size, including at least 2 with a Vee rear suspension. They had various body styles but didn't see mine. I'm guessing mine would have been a Penske replica perhaps.
It could be a a good autoX car with a little work and some serious power.
Any further info would be greatly appreciated!!!

[S Lathrop]

The Indianapolis Shriners had a horse patrol for parades The Speedway patrol had race cars.

Most used VW based chassis. One of my Zink FV found its way to the Shriners. That was mostly in the 1970's. A few of the Indy car builders built some of the parade cars.

[Beartrax]

Home built??

Or cobbled together from what was available.

Long time ago in Cen Div there was a guy who built a FF out of a Dulon front and a Tiga rear.

People called it a "Duga" which he did not like.

Told him to call it a "Tilon"

With a Dulon front and a Tiga rear it would have to be called a "Duga". If it was a Tiga front and Dulon rear, then you could call it a "Tilon".
I apologize for the hijack

[formula none]

The Indianapolis Shriners had a horse patrol for parades The Speedway patrol had race cars.

Most used VW based chassis. One of my Zink FV found its way to the Shriners. That was mostly in the 1970's. A few of the Indy car builders built some of the parade cars.

I'm guessing mine was professionally built. The quality seems good. Any way to find out who the builders were?

[formula none]

I picked the car up Saturday. It's definitely professionally built. The body work does not really fit and is not original.
I'm guessing someone is going to recognize this tub (or style of construction) and front suspension.

[Rick Kirchner]

I'm guessing Steve's on to something with the Shriner Car idea. My guess is the front suspension will be most recognizable. I'd say there was a FF or maybe FSV donor car in there somewhere, which explains the fuel cell and suspension. Front uprights are VW TY III, which are a FSV thing, but Steve used them on FFs more than other builders.

the fact that the engine retains the fan shroud and equipment makes me think even more that its a parade car since all that stuff gets deleted and replaced with air scoops for FSV use.

Most FSVs and FFs of the day had structure carrying the loads around the engine, which I don't see in any of your pics. My Royale FSV had a similar roll hoop attachment but also tubing welded to the hoop that picked up a subframe that bridged the engine and gearbox and then connected at the bottom of the tub.

[S Lathrop]

The front bulkhead is similar to the Zink Z10 and The Zink Z14 (which was a monocoque chassis. The suspension appears to be Zink Z10 parts. The rack is not something I am familiar with.

I got my inspiration for the front bulkhead from Bob Riley's designs for Indy cars. It would not surprise me that someone copied the same cars I did to make this car.

The tub itself is not what I did or even a copy of what I did for the Z14.

The final version of the Z14 body work was done by Howerton and was loosely modeled on the Penske Indy cars of the time. My bet is the cowl and engine cover are from a Penske or copy there off.

[formula none]

I'm guessing Steve's on to something with the Shriner Car idea. My guess is the front suspension will be most recognizable. I'd say there was a FF or maybe FSV donor car in there somewhere, which explains the fuel cell and suspension. Front uprights are VW TY III, which are a FSV thing, but Steve used them on FFs more than other builders.

the fact that the engine retains the fan shroud and equipment makes me think even more that its a parade car since all that stuff gets deleted and replaced with air scoops for FSV use.

Most FSVs and FFs of the day had structure carrying the loads around the engine, which I don't see in any of your pics. My Royale FSV had a similar roll hoop attachment but also tubing welded to the hoop that picked up a subframe that bridged the engine and gearbox and then connected at the bottom of the tub.

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your input. I agree that this could have been a parade car. What I'd really like to find out is what it started life as. I think you missed the photo of the rear subframe. It has four front mounts at the tub, coil-over mounts, and vw trans mounts. It is strange that it has no diagonal strut from the engine sub-frame to the mid roll hoop. Was that a requirement way back when?
It is possible that the tub was adapted to the Vee rear end but it sure doesn't look like it. That would make sense though since the front end is probably much later than a 1969 prototype Super Vee, which has been suggested.
Sure would be nice to find out which FF or SV is started as. You say the front axles/brakes look like Type 3 VW?
Keep the ideas coming!
Brad

[Rick Kirchner]

What Steve and I are suggesting is that it was always a parade car, with various parts from a FF or FSV. the lack of bracing on the hoop might be a give-away - not built to racing standards at the time but using the same techniques.

[formula none]

I contacted the maker of the fiberglass body work (Jones Performance Products) and they informed me that they made fiberglass parts in the 70's and early 80's for Grant King Racing, a builder of sprint cars and a few Indy cars. I did a google search and found he was a prolific builder and copied several indy cars like the Gurney Eagle and Penske PC-7. I found the following photos that have the exact body parts with a tub that is similar in design. Although I found no documentation that says he built Parade cars, chances are he built it from spare parts, etc, as discussed.

[formula none]

For anyone still interested, the previous owner stumbled across an old photo he had of the car when he bought it.



Hard to see in this photo but the two stickers at the front of the side plate/fence are for the Indy 500 Shrine club and Grant King Racing respectively. Guess we solved it! Thanks to all. If anyone recognizes the car and can relate some history I'd appreciate hearing from you.

[phantomjock]

Looks like an interesting shape.

Would you happen to have a picture of the side pods from the bottom side? Looks a bit like an airfoil section maybe lurking there. Just guessing with the endplate/fence on the sides.

TIA.

Cheers - Jim

[Stan Clayton]

The rack is not something I am familiar with.

It looks just like the Porsche 914 rack someone gave me years ago. Like this one it had been turned in a lathe to shave a few ounces off the casting either side of the center section. Just a guess, tho.

[formula none]

Looks like an interesting shape.

Would you happen to have a picture of the side pods from the bottom side? Looks a bit like an airfoil section maybe lurking there. Just guessing with the endplate/fence on the sides.

TIA.

Cheers - Jim

Gentlemen,
The side pods are not downforce generating. The rear end of it is square. and the front is rather blunt. But, it would be very easy to remove the end plates and change the leading edge and lower skins to make it a high downforce wing/venturi. That is one of my plans. For relatively slow AX the current pods are just dead weight and outboard weight at that. The end plates also don't need to be heavy 1/8" plate! If I'm going to have pods, they will need to be doing something for the weight they add. I have extensive sheet metal tools and experience being an aircraft mechanic and all.

I'm not sure about steering rack, but I think I saw a manufacturers label......have to check

My current plan is to skip the VW powerplant ala Supervee and go with a good used Chevy Ecotec 4 cyl 2.4l, 177hp, LE5 motor. I can get one with harness and ECU for under a thousand shipped. I'll couple it with a Kennedy adapter kit for maybe $600. Much less cost than trying to pump up a VW race motor to that HP. If I could find a low cost bus trans that will take higher HP I might go with the 260HP 2.0L intercooled turbo ecotec, such as the one in my wife's Soltice.

[Stan Clayton]

I like your thinking, Brad. You'll fit in well here!

[Jnovak]

The front edge of that tub looks vaguely familiar to what I once saw on the chassis jig at John Mills's shop in Detroit. Wild guess, perhaps Lynx Formula Super Vee? John Kalagian used to run one out of Mills's shop.

Not a lynx SV

[formula none]

Hi Gents, For anyone who might still be interested in this car, I am tearing it down to be rebuilt.
I found out the car was definitely built by Grant King Racers. I even spoke with Grant king's nephew, Bill Throckmorton, who not only has the original fab shop and some of the Grant King cars, but remembers this car being built in 1980 for a rather tall Shriner gentleman.
I've removed the side pods, which are incredibly heavy, and plan to replace them with wider airfoil pods (Removable, possibly composite) with radiators in each, ala the Lotus 78/79 and PC-7.
I believe the front rocker arms ARE Zink Z-10 as predicted. I can see where the sway bar link tabs have been cut off. I plan to weld on new tabs and use them. The original front subrame is also very similar to the Z-10 but not identical.
The Steering rack is aftermarket race car stuff, not 914, and seized......most of a can of WD-40 so far.
The steel front sub-frame is too far gone to repair so I plan to fab an all new front structure using aluminum sheet, bar and angle stock out of 6061T-6 which is weldable. It will be easier since I am an aircraft mechanic and do this kind of work all the time. I am sort of copying some of the 1970's F1 cars, a March in particular.
One big problem is that this car sat way to high in it's parade form, so much creativity is called for. The VW type 3 front spindles can be replaced with 2.5" drop spindles.
The previous plans to install an Ecotech with a VW IRS transaxle have been shot down. Too expensive to make the VW box strong enough for even 177hp. The new plan is to use an Audi 4.2 liter V8 (330 to 350HP DOHC all aluminum) mated to a Porsche Boxter transaxle which is also an Audi transaxle. No adapter required. Might as well use the capacity of the tranaxle, eh? If I'm careful I can get the engine and trans for under $1200 shipped......
The entire back end will have to be new, of course.
I'll drill out the rear steel bulkhead/frame next


Cheers!

[S Lathrop]

Do your self a favor and build a new front bulkhead just like the old one. I used the same design on the Z14 Zink FSV. I actually got a lot of the design ideas from Grant King.

I built the front bulkheads out of 3/4 x 3/4 and 1.5 x 3/4 18 gauge 4130 tubing. That looks like what Grant used. Grant would do some jobs for me and I got a lot of know how from him.

[e-drive115]

Lathrop is very correct. A lot of Indy shops were making / converting cars for Shriners. One of my Lotus 61's went that route. Plus one of my first projects at Bill Spangler's race shop was helping to convert a former Indy 500 Lotus into a parade car. We did it like Lloyd Ruby's car with guppie tank. It was beautiful. Even though it broke my heart to do it to a real Lotus racer. But it's OK. The car has now been restored to its former glory by Walter Goodwin in the configuration as driven by Mario Andretti.

You have a neat project. Have fun with it.

[formula none]

Thanks for the input Guys, but I already have my aluminum stock and am very comfortable with my design. I'm actually going to build it a lot stronger than it was with reinforcements in critical locations.I'll be building a jig and rotisserie pretty soon.
I didn't realize that real race cars were chopped to make parade cars. That's a shame! Glad they are getting restored properly.

[formula none]

The front bulkhead is similar to the Zink Z10 and The Zink Z14 (which was a monocoque chassis. The suspension appears to be Zink Z10 parts. The rack is not something I am familiar with.

I got my inspiration for the front bulkhead from Bob Riley's designs for Indy cars. It would not surprise me that someone copied the same cars I did to make this car.

The tub itself is not what I did or even a copy of what I did for the Z14.

The final version of the Z14 body work was done by Howerton and was loosely modeled on the Penske Indy cars of the time. My bet is the cowl and engine cover are from a Penske or copy there off.

Steve, turns out you were dead on. My friend just bought a Z-14 project (he'll be contacting you soon, I think. He's missing parts and needs drawings, etc.) and the front end other than the lower a-arms is identical. Do you know if there are front anti-roll bars available?

[t walgamuth]

What class you planning to run atuocross? SCCA?

[formula none]

What class you planning to run atuocross? SCCA?

Yes, autocross and track days. I'm currently fitting an LS with Boxster transaxle, Lola Indy car rear A-arms..

[t walgamuth]

Yes, autocross and track days. I'm currently fitting an LS with Boxster transaxle, Lola Indy car rear A-arms..

Well sounds like A mod. You should have plenty of power!;}

[formula none]

Well sounds like A mod. You should have plenty of power!;}

Yes, I'm limiting power to 400 Max for the trans axle anyway. The nice thing about A mod is you can do practically anything......
I'm extending the tub rearward to mount the engine as done by Lola, etc.
I call it a pickle-fork tub!

[Rick Iverson]

The Steering rack is aftermarket race car stuff, not 914, and seized......most of a can of WD-40 so far.

Send it to Richard Pare. It will look NOS when returned.