If you are not running a FF in a sanctioned organiztion such as SCCA, are other engines readily adaptable to the engine compartment and transaxles? After looking at cost of engines advertised it would seem that something like a GM 4cyl or and older import engine added to a roller might be a buying alternative.
I don’t believe there is any other engine that would connect directly to a standard FF adaptor. An adaptor would have to be custom made. The input shaft and clutch arrangement would have to redone along with the engine mounts, water & oil plumbing, starter, headers and a number of other mechanical components. Although the idea you propose seems at first glance to be viable and cost effective, it could end up being much more expensive and difficult than initially thought and in the end, the ‘race reliability’ of the transplant would be doubtful.
Of course, such a car is no longer a “Formula Ford” which is, by definition, powered by either the original Cortina engine or the far more prevalent “uprated” Kent engine. Consequently, you would have to fit into another class in whatever sanctioning body you are running with. In SCCA, you would be classified under the recently codified “FS” Class. In either case, running as a “one-off’, you would have no other cars to compete with.
Further investigation will show you that the Kent engine continues to a highly cost effective, reliable and proven race motor. Recently, excellent RunOffs quality engines have been advertised for as little as $5,000 and it is certainly possible that a complete, sound Regional engine could be found for $2,500 or even less. The difference between the cost of a roller and a car with engine is sometimes as little as $1,500-2000.
Although a tired engine at the lower end of the scale will undoubtedly need some work and replacement parts – depending on condition – the overall cost in dollars, man/hours and aggravation - will very likely be less than the alternative you are considering.
Additionally, the Formula Ford community is continuing its pursuit of stronger, readily available replacement parts which are, in some cases, less expensive than previous versions. That’s just one of the reasons Formula Ford continues to provide the biggest bang for the buck in all of amateur racing.
John: Thanks for the reply to my question. I'm not familar with the Kent engine. Was it used in regular production cars in the U.S. I sort of remember the Cortina as a European Ford production engine.
Thanks, Dave
Another point to consider (for non-FF regulated use) is that the basic Ford block can be elevated to a variety of "states of tune", from the FF configuration (~110 HP) all the way out to the Formula Atlantic/4-valve Cosworth head config (240 HP +). Just taking the FF config, adding a forged crank, hotter cam and more induction will get you near 150 HP. I'd spend the money in these directions rather than trying to convert to another motor.
There is a glitch in the continuum...
Dave, see the recent post under the Engine Section. You can dig up either a Fiesta or a 71-73 Pinto in some local salvage yard!
Thaks for the info guys. There are a lot of little salvage yards around here that don't have crushers. Basically if a car lands in one of these yards it stays selling off pieces until it turns to dirt. Might be kinda fun just to go see what's out there. I guess by now you've determined that I love to tinker.
Thanks, Dave
The 2 liter pinto will bolt up where that 1600 does. As will the 2300. The 2300 has hundreds of low cost performance mods available on the market. (See Eslinger Catalog.) And of course the Zetec motor in the newer Ford Focii will bolt up. There is also an inexpensive adapter available to mount a Mazda rotory to a Mark 9 (FM comes to mind). And to be real obsene, there is a Corvair adapter... But when looking at adapters, remember, we run our tranies upside down.
Lots of choices if you don't need to stay SCCA legal.
Remember, with FS, almost anything is legal! I'm anxious to see some innovation...but the Mk 9 gearbox gets finicky when you try to put too much hp in it.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
Larry Oliver
Larry:
How much is 'too much' ?? what range is marginal?
or is this a Craig Taylor question?
TIA
Rick
Hi,
Late (1985-) SuperVees were running 200+ hp through Mk9's and didn't seem to run into too many problems.
I'm still considering buying one...they're very interesting technically with ground effects, etc., and my understanding is that the VW motors are about as reliable as our FF1600's, i.e. a season or more on the motor before needing a rebuild...if you don't whiz it.
Regards,
Allan
The 1800 water-cooled VW will be a lot more reliable than the earlier 1600 unit. And the SV guys I know break the box all the time. You must learn to be kind and practice preventative maintenance when you get up to 200 hp in a Mk9 (although it's more of a low end grunt issue really).
The cool thing about using a FF chassis is that most modern motors have the intake on drivers left and the exhaust drivers right, and the ford chassis more readily adapts to that, as the tubing on F2000's usually gets in the way of an exhaust system located driver's left.
A 914 will bolt right up - 160hp, low weight, low cg, and no water system. The Mk9 can be run upright (with the SV monkey-motion rear housing) or upside down as long as the ring gear is on the left. I'm pretty sure a 911 motor will fit too - not to mention one of Jake Raby's 3.5 liter type IV motors.
How about a 2.5L Altima or a 7500 rpm stock Acura Integra motor? Honda stuff spins the wrong way but Craig Taylor gave me a contact for a guy that has kits to reverse the Hondas.
Tim McKamey tansplanted aluminum block buick V-8's into a number of FF chassis for B-modified Solo II (meets the letter, but not the intent of the original F5000 rules)
You could build a real interesting machine to compete in open road racing in Nevada and Arizona - but god forbid you drop a wheel off at those speeds in a FF chassis with a V-8 behind you, surrounded by 30 gallons of fuel - wait! That's F-1 circa 1966!
OBTW - you'll need bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tires, bigger hub bearings, and probably a bigger fuel cell - but an older car already has overkill in suspension components like rod ends.
God I wish I had six months of free time and an extra $30K lying around I don't need.......
Allan,
Craig Taylor would be a much better source of info on max hp for the Mk 9, but I know that the Zetec motors are about as much hp as you want to use. Yes, people use higher hp motors, but the reliability suffers. Personally, I'd be looking for a heavier box if I was going to have more than about 160 hp.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
Larry Oliver
According the hewland, the ceiling is based on torque, not HP. 150 ft-lbs with current Mk9 gears and 180 ft-lbs with Mk5 gears. I can easily see a high reving engine with 220 hp with not alot more than 150 - 160 ft -lbs of torque.
FWIW I am putting a BMW 2 liter engine, that I am building to about 160 - 180 hp, in front of a Mk9. I made the adaptor up, and if I have problems I'll upgrade to Mk5 gears. My other box is already a Mk5, so I would have matching gears...
Brian
Brian:
Are you interested in selling an adaptor for BMW 2L (M10) to others? If so, what is approximate cost? Also what kind og input shaft changes are required for the MK9?
TIA
Rick Johnson
Rick, drop me a line on brian.evans@ca.mci.com Short answer is yes, I'd make one, but I start with a bloody great billet of aluminium, and throw most of it away, so they aren't particularly cheap. I actually lucked out and made a BMC flywheel with the bit I cut out of the adaptor [img]smile.gif[/img] Lot's of variations on install angle of the engine, I made mine at 18 degrees same as the stock BMW install, for lower height. I am also making up a billet drysump pan. Input shaft is stock old style FFord, with the 2" adaptor, but you need to adapt the pilot bushing - I plan to make up an adaptor for the stock Ford bronze bushing.
Brian
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