AR vs Hoosier comparison

[Rob Futcher]

Quote "having AR send you matched sets are somewhat important, but measuring them yourself is the only way to know for sure."

Quote "I mount up lots of sets and measure every tire, so I match all the sets. I have the wheels marked as to who owns them but they rarely run all four of their own wheels because of the matching we do."

Not everyone has the luxury of buying and mounting multiple sets of tires so they can be matched and used in pairs.....

I was on the brink of buying an FE and joining this class as I wanted a quick, low maintenance car. The idea of no track-side support and the possibility of having to buy X number of sets to get two tires that may work together is currently barring my entry.

Hope this gets resolved soon - the situation seems to be fracturing what could be a great class.

[Justin_H]

The rear tires I ran in Sunday's race were marked 70 1/4 and 71", that was close enough to be second fastest. I did not measure them. I was almost 4 seconds slower than my last pro course times, but the tires are workable.

AR is working on improving the tires, and they are testing changes already. They will not likely be approved for use this year, even if they are ready- it's too close to the Runoffs.

Justin

[jcorsico]

The rear tires I ran in Sunday's race were marked 70 1/4 and 71", that was close enough to be second fastest. I did not measure them. I was almost 4 seconds slower than my last pro course times, but the tires are workable.

Justin - not to beat up on you at all - but four seconds!?!? WTF?!?! These tires are horrible. Absolutely horrible. There is no way you can put enough lipstick on this pig - it's a pig and will always be a pig.

Nobody should be obligated to use these tires for another race. The SCCA mandated a switch off the Hoosiers in the middle of the season. They should mandate a switch back to the Hoosiers in the middle of the season. Everyone knows the Hoosiers and can use Hoosiers at the runoffs.

AR and Primus then need to get their act together. Four seconds is abominable and they should be horribly embarrassed that their product is so terrible. Once they produce a good tire, we can then switch back to the ARs.

[jcorsico]

I was on the brink of buying an FE and joining this class as I wanted a quick, low maintenance car. The idea of no track-side support and the possibility of having to buy X number of sets to get two tires that may work together is currently barring my entry.

Hope this gets resolved soon - the situation seems to be fracturing what could be a great class.

This is a disaster that needs to be fixed now. Go back to the Hoosiers until the AR tires are improved.

[cmaxwell]

As I have said before, (i) opinions regarding the process of choosing and implementing a new spec tire, and, (ii) opinions on the tires themselves are two separate subjects, and need to be dealt with separately.

A waiver was in place for the 4/29/16 Majors at MSRH, and I pulled out of the Memorial Day SWRRC race at Texas World Speedway due to the high probability of rain. It did not make sense to me to waste a weekend and/or a new set of A/R tires by dealing with changeable conditions and different diameter tires (and set-ups).

Instead, I opted for a test day at Motorsports Ranch, Cresson, 1.7 ccw where I could execute a planned program in predictable conditions and well known environment.

Until now, I have had nothing to say about the tires themselves, as it should be, until one has first-hand exposure. Following are some observations on the tires and the supply source:

1. Primus needs to be more careful in matching sets up for shipment. As someone else mentioned, I do not have the luxury of choosing from several other folk’s wheels and tire to match up a set, so it is important that Primus send well matched sets. To make a fair acknowledgement where due, once Primus was made aware of having shipped tires with mismatched circumference labels, they immediately did the right thing to resolve the issue.

2. A/R needs to do a better job of measuring and marking circumference. Actual variation of mounted tires to marked circumference(s) was both material and inconsistent. Despite Primus’ best efforts to make it right, tires with matching labeling were both (i) not as labeled, and, (ii) not the same circumference. Simple math will reveal the radii difference, and very small radii difference(s) show up on the scales. Sure, one can adapt for a certain amount of this, but all is out the window if the next set bolted on at the track is different again. Again, kudos to Primus for good faith efforts; critique to AR for quality control.

3. It is understood that some level of circumference variation is inherent, but I had personally not ever experienced a material issue with Hoosiers, if their factory markings were matched.

4. As reported by others, inner edge graining was significant, particularly on the outside tires (ccw track), even after discarding the set-up information initially provided by Enterprises, and starting with significantly less camber at both ends, and reducing it significantly further at the track. After four sessions, the car went on the trailer, with me convinced that camber alone was not the solution, and more laps would just trash the tires.

5. Gearing difference was noticeable and recordable in terms of change in shift points on the track and revs at given speeds and locations.

6. Over the four sessions I ran, best times relative to previous personal best (on Hoosiers), with similar track condition and temperature(s) were: 109.9% / 107.3% / 101.9% / 100.6% (footnote: fuel mixture at this test was better than when the previous personal best was set; slightly wider gaps might otherwise have resulted).

Conclusions:

1. I am baffled as to how the set-up initially published by Enterprises could have come from any meaningful testing, without severe edge graining, or, why they were published if severe edge graining was present.

2. I am unclear as to why the AR tires are arbitrarily sized differently than the Hoosiers were. I may be wrong, but I think I recall from some conversation that preceded the official announcement of the change, that there were tires of these same new dimensions already in the AR catalog, but I am not certain of this point. Was this adoption of an existing mold that was ‘close enough’? Dunno. Sure would be nice if someone would explain why different dimensions are beneficial compared to the dimensions that were from bespoke development, tried and true.

3. I am not yet finished with finding out how to make these tires work, but my initial impression is that they may have been selected in spite of, rather than because of how well they are suited to the application. I am not happy with the time nor the expense required to get back to where I was before a decision I had no voice in was made. I view this as being like a street car accident for which one is not at fault, yet will endure, expense, inconvenience and impositions upon personal time in order to do no better than be restored to pre-disaster condition, if fortunate.

Next steps:

1. Tires have been turned around on the wheels
2. Further set-up changes made
3. Re-balanced on scales
4. Further controlled testing, hopefully within the next 10 days

I hope others here will continue to report factual observations, based on firsthand knowledge and/or observations. Emotional reactions will develop, to a certain extent, but they should not be the drivers of an evaluation process.

[pschneider]

Hoosier versus American Racer tires:

I have reviewed our times at Carolina motorsports Park over the past six years. The majority of discussion on apexspeed has been comparing apples to oranges. Track conditions at the venues have been varied with rain and temperature changes , shortened sessions and therefore probably not a good comparison. I am trying to compare apples to apples. For the most part, the track conditions are similar( track and air temp) comparing the Memorial Day events. Paul's track record is a 132.573 set prior to July 2011 (the start of my current data book). In May 2012, on a set of stickers, he ran a 133.13 and in the race on one heat cycle, 132.811. One year later at the same event using 2, 3 and 4 heat cycle tires we noticed that the tires lost one second per heat cycle. Times being 133.19, 134.2, 135.5 respectively. Over the next 2 years, the track lost about 2 1/2 seconds. May 2015 two, three, and four heat cycle tires yielded 137.54, 135.86, 137.50. We ran our first set of American race tires at Daytona for a total of 34 laps yielding 125 miles and ran those for two sessions at Carolina motorsports Park adding another 20 laps, a total of 170 miles on that set of tires. Our best time was on the fourth heat cycle at 1:35 .88 and that was on lap 17 out of 20. We NEVER reached a point where the tires dropped off. We then mounted a set of stickers and did a 134.52. That was our best time in two years at CMP. One heat cycle tires yielded 135.05, two heat cycle at 1:36.51. We did a total of 34 laps, 80 miles.

Now to truly compare apples to apples the following times for the Hoosiers are from the event in 2012 and 2013 vs the ARs 2016. Stickers 133.19 versus 134.52, one heat cycle 132.81 versus 135.05, 2 heat cycle 133.19 versus 136.51, three heat cycle 134.20 versus 136.56, and 4 heat cycle 135.50 vs 135.88. All right, it looks like the ARs are 1.5-3 seconds slower, HOWEVER, as I noted above, the track has lost 2.5 sec from May 2013 to 2015. So I think I have compared a red delicious to a Rome Apple. The American racer tires, in their current form, compare very favorably to the Hoosier: 1) they give very similar lap times, 2)seem to last extremely well at Carolina motorsports Park, which unfortunately has developed a reputation of being very harsh on tires (because it needs to be repaved), 3) we have not yet found the drop off point that we experienced after 3-4 heat cycles with the Hoosiers. 5 heat cycle Hoosiers at CMP were non competigive.

Peter Schneider

[KAMcDonald]

paul
glad to see you are finally seeing some conditions that match up with the rest of us, i.e. AR's are measurably slower. we also have several years running at these tracks and have been comparing them to more than one session with hoosiers.

also nice to see that you consider a drop of .5 from new to 1 cycle, and 1.5 from 1 to 2 cycles as still being competitive. i guess that means when you go to the sprints in a couple weeks you will not be taking a new set of tires with you as you feel you still have a chance to win running that set of tires for cycle 4, 5 and 6....

oh, waitaminit..... you thought that i was your competition and no fast folks would be there....

[oppermann]

Paul,

I know you are trying to compare apples to apples but you have forgotten a couple things. Our cars have been updated in the time span you are comparing as well. New 4th gear, adjustable bar, etc. Also, correct me if I am wrong but I thought you just freshened up you engine as well.

If you have maintained your same lap times through this transition-congrats, you are definitely ahead of the curve. With all the other experience including my own, I personally don't think the outlook is as bright as you describe it.

Andy,

You, also, praise the AR tires-as I would expect with your deserving victory at Blackhawk. However, you too may have misdirected optimism. You claim AR is putting money back into the series. What????? If we were still on Hoosiers you would have a full set of New Tires in your garage-free of charge. Denny and I would have a contingency tires as well. Where is the money AR is putting into the series? Did I miss an announcement somewhere? Are they funding the Enterprises contingency?

Everyone, Please do not misunderstand this post. I really enjoy this series and racing with all of you. One Formula and Alliance do a great job supporting us in the Northern Conf! Steve has done a great job generating a series that has real contingency value associated with it. So I feel guilty in my critical stance on this tire change. However, we do have to call a spade a spade. Right now this situation is not ideal! Tires are not good! Track side support is not there! Tires are more expensive!

Not that it matters to anyone but if it wasn't for the contributions by all those responsible for the One Formula Challenge and the enterprises/comprent contingencies, I would be on the sidelines and possibly selling the car until this tire S$%t is sorted out.

I mean: POSITIVE CAMBER-ARE YOU KIDDING ME-Are we running ovals now?

[Paul Schneider]

Dean, I didn't write the post comparing my lap times. That was my dad. But, me and him are on the same page. Also, we only went back four years. The car has the same updates now as it did then. It's true that the engine has been rebuilt, but the power is the same. You should know that FE engines don't vary much. So, that's not even a variable. With that said, I don't think the ARs are that bad. They're just different to drive on. The Hoosiers had an inherent understeer. Now we have a tire that has front grip. We have to feel out that new grip and adjust our driving accordingly. I think those that are struggling are expecting to bolt on the tires and NOT change their driving style. We need to be race car drivers and feel what the car is doing. These tires talk to us. Listen to them. Also, AR is making a change to the tire and this should lead us back to negative camber. We're all in this together and we need to be patient with this transition. How and why we got here is a moot point. But, AR, Primus, and Enterprises are working hard to improve our overall car/class. We should be really grateful that we're getting this attention. When the dust settles, we'll have the best open-wheel car/class in the SCCA!

[KAMcDonald]

test day summit point... just to make sure something else was not wrong.

5th cycle hoosiers with car using current AR setup attempt, 1:15.0
came in, put on 7th cycle AR, 1:16.9

so, if 5th cycle hoosiers are not competitive, and AR's get their best times after 10, 15, 18 cycles..... hmmm, with what we have now, 1.9 sec faster and not competitive (with other hoosiers) makes me want to run which tire?

but, after making some adjustments after jeremy (grenier... 2014 FF national champion) took the car out for a session, it did feel better in the corners than what it had been so far. no idea what the times were, dash kept resetting. will be out this weekend on sticker tires and see if it actually went quicker, or it just had enough cycles on it that it was slower and not enough speed in the corners to notice anything bad.

[jcorsico]

The tires suck. They suck in many different respects. There is no reason to try to convince yourself otherwise. They need to be fixed. That's it - just fix them.

[KAMcDonald]

another nail in the lasts long enough for several weekends idea...

great weather at SP, 10 cycle morning vs new afternoon seesion, 2.5 seconds difference in times.

so while you can get a majors and regional or test day from a set, 2 majors is not realistic unless no one else is there that is normally 2 seconds slower than you unless you want them fighting you for the position.... and at least for me, i was doing major/regional with the hoosiers.

at least primus is making an effort to send out tires that match in size for front and back, but there is still a big difference in what you may get from per axle from one order to the next, so we need to keep track of what size we have on now, and what ride height changes may be needed when we go 69 3/4 front and 71 back one time to 70 1/4 front and 70 1/2 the next, etc...

[KAMcDonald]

looks like times at RA for the sprints were about 5-6 seconds off record pace... not sure what the weather was like but seemed close between the 2 quals and 2 races, so i think it was fairly nice. maybe we can get impressions/comparisons from some of the people who were there.

next up for us NE folks is watkins glen this weekend.

[wingnut49b]

Warm, sunny, and dry all weekend at the June Sprints.

Becker and I had a tough start to the weekend. We missed Thurs because of my work, and Friday with him being sick all night. Not sure if it was food or flu, but I'm guessing he won't ever eat at that place again!

First session was Sat morning, and we ended up 5th. I was happy. Becker wanted to fix a push that we never really found a solution for all weekend. Ran as high as second in the race Sat, but didn't have the car. A spin put us back to midpack, and thankfully no damage. Sunday we had a close, clean and competitive race with Hanna. Dean, Paul, and Scott were gone.

Good weekend. Back to the books for me. I have some setup to learn!!


Robey Clark introduced himself and we had a long discussion. I really like the energy and direction that he is after for the FE class. Better feel and speed in tires, new cars available again, and better pricing for cars and parts. Possible ECU change over the winter to add a bit of HP. Testing being done to ensure positive change once, since stability is quite important too. I trust that their real effort will bring results.

Karting lost focus of making it affordable and fun, and has shrunk a LOT for it. SCCA Enterprises is focused on an affordable, fun, fast class. I think we are looking at a great era for FE coming. It's all about the people. Robey running the class, and Steve running the series makes me very happy to have a FE in the midwest.

[jcorsico]

Robey Clark introduced himself and we had a long discussion. I really like the energy and direction that he is after for the FE class. Better feel and speed in tires, new cars available again, and better pricing for cars and parts. Possible ECU change over the winter to add a bit of HP. Testing being done to ensure positive change once, since stability is quite important too. I trust that their real effort will bring results.

SCCA Enterprises is focused on an affordable, fun, fast class. I think we are looking at a great era for FE coming. It's all about the people. Robey running the class, and Steve running the series makes me very happy to have a FE in the midwest.

This is great. When I spoke with Robey, I had a very positive reaction as well. Fix the tires!

[Paul Schneider]

Comparing current lap times to previous Hoosier lap times is pointless. We're all on the same tire. None of that matters. The biggest take away now is that our class doesn't have a runaway car anyone. Even though Scott swept the Sprints, he didn't do it in typical fashion by whipping us by 20-30 seconds. I went there hoping to actually have a chance of winning, and I damn near pulled out off. These tires are harder to drive at the ultimate limit, but I like the challenge. Also, I echo what everyone is saying about Robey. He's focused on the FE and making it the best class possible.

[KAMcDonald]

well, fruitless pining for what once was more than pointless....

lap records are records, and the base at which you compare. unless they do for us what they did for FM's when they changed tires and reset all the track records. it is hard to attract more attention of new people to get into the class when capabilities are reduced. you know, change/wipe away history and make the presesnt all rosy, warm feelings of accomplishment. i mean, paul, looks like you did great at RA lsat weekend, congrats to you and the rest.... but did you use new tires, or your still competitive 5th/higher cycle tires?

evolution of the car has pretty much been something to address shortcomings, had to add/change muffler to make sound, changed 4th gear ratio to even out the difference between 3/4 and 4/5, ecu changes for better cold/warm up, etc.

i understand that when a contract runs out, re-bidding is a necessary evil, but really think more thought/testing was needed before choosing AR's, whatever the backstory of that choice was...

[dsmithwc04]

I dont understand track records being an emphasis on this matter? As long as the product inproves, and gives more durability as advertised then it doesnt matter as long we are all on the same tire. The tires will probably get better with development and Primus is working on it as we speak. Longevity is the emphesis in my opinion.

[KAMcDonald]

i wholeheartedly agree, if they lasted longer, and only mild degradation in time, i would love them. i am not saying we (well, others, not me....) should be able to set new track records left and right, but getting within 2 seconds should be easy for the quick shoes.

so far, i have not seen that they really last longer nor still be able to run against someone with new tires once you get 5 or 6 cycles into them

one can only hope they improve on next iteration, and that it comes fairly quickly.

[mazda17]

At Road America a 4 heat cycle set of Hoosiers would be 1+ seconds slower than stickers.
In Q1 I ran a 7 cycle set of ARs in the afternoon heat in a 50 car group and turned a 2:18.8. In Q2 I put on a new set of ARs in a morning cooler session with a 25 car group and turned a 2:18.5. A new set of ARs is not faster than a set with 4-8 sessions and may even be slower the first heat cycle.
Also, while a few cars still had some graining, at least half the field had no tire graining at Road America.
The drive ability of the tire certainly needs some improvement, and it will come with time, but there is no time drop off through cycles.

[jcorsico]

Comparing current lap times to previous Hoosier lap times is pointless. We're all on the same tire. None of that matters.

Paul - with all due respect, this logic is faulty. I bought an FE because I wanted a fast spec car. Yes, SCCA-E could mandate that we all run DOT-legal tires, or de-tune the engine, or make us go back to Bilstein shocks. None of that will impact "the racing" because we all have the same car.

But I wouldn't want to drive that car. If I wanted a slow spec car, there are countless options. SRF. Spec Miata. Fromula Mazda. Any other of the production classes.

FE used to be the fastest spec car available. But with people now turning times that are several seconds a lap slower, and having to run wacky setups like positive camber, that's no longer the case. FM is faster. We're behind many more FCs. Etc.

This is supposed to be fun, and it's not.

[jcorsico]

Primus is working on it as we speak

Everyone keeps saying this, but I've heard nothing official. Where is Primus or AR? The silence is deafening.

As far as I know, nobody is working to improve the tire.

[Robey Clark]

Patience Grasshopper. Several Drivers that have been RACING the AR's recently will be testing an updated tire over the next month as has been stated in previous posts. Give me a call if you have any questions. Robey 214-415-1909

[Paul Schneider]

Paul - with all due respect, this logic is faulty. I bought an FE because I wanted a fast spec car. Yes, SCCA-E could mandate that we all run DOT-legal tires, or de-tune the engine, or make us go back to Bilstein shocks. None of that will impact "the racing" because we all have the same car.

But I wouldn't want to drive that car. If I wanted a slow spec car, there are countless options. SRF. Spec Miata. Fromula Mazda. Any other of the production classes.

FE used to be the fastest spec car available. But with people now turning times that are several seconds a lap slower, and having to run wacky setups like positive camber, that's no longer the case. FM is faster. We're behind many more FCs. Etc.

This is supposed to be fun, and it's not.

John, I don't want to start an argument, but have you run the AR tire yet? Also, we were faster than the FMs at Road America by about 2 seconds. And, the FCs have always been faster than us. Additionally, looking at FE times from last year's Sprints, the lap times are pretty much the same for each driver that ran again this year. These tires are not 5 seconds slower. I'll say they're a little over a second slower. That isn't that bad. Plus, the update to the tire should make us faster and possibly faster than the Hoosiers. I also stand by my comment that we're all on the same tire and previous lap times don't matter. I don't necessarily want to go slower, but no one has an advantage over me. So, please be patient and see the big picture that Robey is creating a stronger class for us that we're all going to love.

[Marshall Mauney]

Also, we were faster than the FMs at Road America by about 2 seconds.

Maybe you were... Nice fast lap in Sunday's race, BTW! You seem to have it sorted out nicely.

i wholeheartedly agree, if they lasted longer, and only mild degradation in time, i would love them.

Keith - the graining is a setup issue, not an inherent characteristic of the tire. Look at the grid and you'll see that some teams have figured it out, and the number is growing.

I also ran into it at the Sprints (my first weekend with the new tire), and it took me up until the second race before I had thought it all the way through and understood the root cause. In the process I tore up a set of tires, went far slower than I needed to, and finished way back in the field, but that's racing.

Give it time. Two things will happen:

1) AR will improve the tire somewhat so that it is better suited to our cars.
2) Teams and drivers will figure out the setup that these tires need to go fast.

Let me be clear - I am not saying that the AR tire is as fast as the Hoosiers were, at least not yet. I am also not saying that they are easy to drive fast on - they aren't.

What I am saying is that some of the complaints about the tire are based on the setup learning curve, not the tire itself. It's not a bad copy of the Hoosier, it is a completely different tire that requires a completely different approach.

[KAMcDonald]

Marshall,
am well aware graining is initially a setup issue, but i think some of it is also in tire construction.

we have had the same steps as you, fastest times to date are with hoosier setup, but heavy graining that destroys the tire fairly quickly. positive camber fixed the graining issue, but at least for us, caused other handling issues.

i have been on these tires for major/regional/2 test days at Summit Point, regional at VIR, majors at Pitt and MidO and getting ready for the Glen this weekend and NJMP next month, so it is not like i am pulling all of this out of the air with just a single session/track worth of experimenting....

making a myriad of changes, i have been able to lower my times at SP by almost 2 seconds from what i was doing at the majors, which is still about 1.5 slower than hoosier times. a few more changes in mind to try, plus more confidence that i am not going to lose control and crash again, like i did at the majors when the back end came around, and i think at least another second off times is low hanging fruit.

We will be doing many of the same changes I have made onto Justin's car for the Glen to see if his more aggressive speed and nature works for his quicker driving than it does for my plodding around in trace....

[jcorsico]

Patience Grasshopper. Several Drivers that have been RACING the AR's recently will be testing an updated tire over the next month as has been stated in previous posts. Give me a call if you have any questions. Robey 214-415-0909

Excellent!

[KAMcDonald]

not much useful from WGI Majors, i blew up motor in Q2 after other issues, so no good times, Justin had a couple of 1:59's, about 3 seconds slower than usual. Mason was slightly slower than last year, which was his first time in the car and he has gotten faster since then at other tracks. Joe and the Zerlins were on the AR's for the 1st time and trying to get used to them. in the sat race, ray and joe got together on lap 1 taking both of them out for the rest of the weekend, and Adam did not go out sunday thinking that something was going bad with gearbox. justin finished sunday race with final few laps on his front wing, top crush box bolts broke, lost shock cover and wore down the end plates and bottom of front wing, was far enough in front that he hung on for the win.