FE Tires
I have a ESR (the FE with a body) that I mainly use for track days. Currently the only tire choice I know of is the FE Spec Hoosier which is wonderful but a bit short on heat cycle life. I plan to run these tires till as they say "the cords" show.
Just wondering how many 30 minute sessions one would expect to get from a set of FE tires before they are well past good.
It largely depends how much camber you run and how much you are sliding. If you run a lot of camber and slide the car a lot, you'll get to the cords pretty quick - maybe only 5-7 cycles before the cords show in the inside shoulder. If you run less camber and don't slide as much, the tires will last much longer before getting to the cords (20+).Originally Posted by Dog Licked Racing
I don't have my set up numbers available to me right now, but I have one set with 12 sessions and another with 10 and the wear across the tires is rather light and even.
For that chassis you won't want to go with a different tire, stick with the FE tires. They were designed for that spec chassis and were made around it's shortcomings. The fronts are R35s, while the backs are R45s. Hoosier went through A LOT of testing to make a tire for that chassis that was never designed to have that engine/power level in it. I'd assume if you keep it in the same spec as FE, those tires are going to be about the best thing you can find for it.
Reid,
Since you have the Hoosier logo I will tell you I was dreaming of running on the Hoosier F4 Radial but that was killed by SCCA.
The current Hoosier FE/ESR tire is great, as are the new SRF tires. I won't go off the Hoosier brand as their support to club racers is so strong, the best I can do to thank Hoosier is run their tires.
4-5 good cycles then they go off. I can't remember ever going to the chord on one, probably because once they drop off I don't use them except maybe on a test day .
JR
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most ! "
American Race Spec Tire
I just read the prelims and see the American Racer has indeed been selected as the new FE tire.
Does anyone have the details?
- Cost?
- Number of usable heat cycles?
- Contingency Program?
Thanks!
FE
1.
#19159 (Erik Skirmants) New FE Tire Supplier
Thank you for your letter.
The CRB recommends a change in the Formula Enterprise spe
c tire to the
American Racer.
If approved by the Board of Directors, the CRB recommends this become effective
4/29/2016.
Cha
nge 9.1.1.I.13:
13. Tires
Tires must run in sets of 4 as stated below:
DRY
Hoosier “FE” Labeled Compound
Front: PN: 43270FE, 21.5 X 8.0
-
13
Rear: PN: 43301FE, 22.0 X 10.0
-
13
American Racer
Front: PN: JA3C3, 22.0 X 8.0
-
13
Rear: PN: JA3MA, 22.5 X 10.0
-
13
WET
Until 8/1/16
Hoosier Road Racing Wet
Front: PN: 44195, 21.5 X 8.0 X 13.0
Formula Enterprises (FE) Specifications
Rear: PN: 44217, 22.0 X10.0 X 13.0
After 8/1/16
American Racer
Front: PN: TBD, 22.0 X 8.0 X 13.0
Rear: PN: TBD, 22.5 X10.0 X 13.0
Wow. Considering the efforts Hoosier went to in order to make a tire that worked for this car, I can't imagine an off the shelf AR would do any good at all. And to switch the wet on 8/1, a month and a half before the Runoffs?! Really?
Wow.
Is there a compelling logic for change?
Down here in Texas, we are not always connected to the logic and/or motivation for changes that are proposed and/or imposed. In fairness, I had heard from a credible source(s) that this change was being considered, but am not convinced, from what I have heard, of the benefits.
I will also freely admit that I am not the most knowledgeable guy in the sport, and that I may lack information that makes the following questions and comments simplistic and/or naïve. Please consider them through these filters.
1. What is the motivation for the change? Is there a problem to be solved or a quantifiable performance benefit to be had?
2. Is this change performance driven or commercially driven?
3. What is the cost differential? Does the benefit justify whatever the cost differential might be, including cost of test time and tires?
4. Based upon a ½ inch diameter increase, a ¼ in change in suspension height seem indicated. Does this change the camber curve that the revised suspension height travels through?
5. For the period from 4/29/16 to 8/1/16, a rider height differential between A/R dry and Hoosier wet tires will exist. Will four corner pushrod adjustments need to be made on the fly, for a change to wets? How well does this work out for changing to wets on the grid?
6. How much different will static camber be if a ¼ in ride height change is required on the fly for an change between wets and drys.
7. If it does not rain between now and 8/1/16, is there a market for the (in my case) unused wets to be discarded and replaced?
8. Today I can order Hoosiers at a Discount Tire store 1 mile from my home, and have them mounted and balanced at my convenience. Will this still be so for A/R tires?
Echoing Reid’s comment, I also had been of the impression that the current Hoosier’s had been developed specifically for FE’s, and until/unless shown otherwise, I am wary of anything less bespoke.
...and I am never fond of spending time and money to solve problems that I don't have.
Cliff
A parting gift from Skirmants.
The CRB also fails to mention the bastard brother of the FE - the ESR - which must run in P2 as specified in the GCR in a section where this ruling fails to address at all.
Will ESRs stay on Hoosiers? Will they even make tires for us? Unless the new tire has a much better performance level this will be the death nail for the ESR in P2 as the car is already difficult to run competitively at 175 HP and 1350 LBS against motorcycle powered cars with the same or more power and 200 LBS less weight.
All FE cars are created equal, some P2 cars are more equal than others - George Orwell
There’s been a lot of silence on this topic but I feel I must make a comment about this rule change. Below is the letter I’ve submitted to the SCCA Board of Directors regarding this topic.
-------
For the consideration of the SCCA Board of Directors,
This will be my second season racing in Formula Enterprise so I only have one year of experience in the class on the Hoosier tire. I found the Hoosier to be a good tire. Could there be improvements made to the help the life of the tire, possibly, but at what cost to performance? Does American Racer have a better solution, I don’t know and I must reserve judgment on their tire until I’m able to drive on it? However, the process of how this rule change was moved forward really bothers me and I feel I must comment on this.
The first time the FE competitors were officially made aware that a tire change in the class was even being considered was when the preliminary Fastrack was posted on March 7th, 2016 and the CRB recommends this change to be approved by the Board of Directors and take effect on April 29th, 2016. Within this section of the Fastrack there was also the following note to the membership:
Recommended Items for 2016
The following subjects will be referred to the Board of Directors for approval. Address all comments, both for and against, to the Club Racing Board. It is the BoD’s policy to withhold voting on a rules change until there has been input from the membership on the presented rules. Member input is suggested and encouraged. Please send your comments via the form at www.clubracingboard.com. If approved by the Board of Directors, the below items will become effective on the dates specified in each letter.
It’s appropriate that the CRB and BOD ask for the racers opinion on such a rule change. However, given the timetable of the initial posting in the preliminary Fastrack on March 7th and the desired date of implementation of the rule on April 29th it’s clear that our opinion is irrelevant to the passage of this rule change. Logic tells us that this deal has already been agreed to as in order for American Racer to be able to deliver tires starting April 29th they would have already needed the go ahead to start building.
Moreover, when it comes to rule changes for racing, changing tires (especially in a spec class) is a BIG deal. I don’t think it is unreasonable for racers within that class to expect that they would get some voice in the conversation of the tire rule changing. I also think it is reasonable for there to be actual data and information presented to the club members & BOD to make an informed decision.
The CRB says they recommend we change the tire. That’s nice, how about telling us WHY you recommend changing the tire? Does it last longer than the Hoosier does? Will it be a faster tire than the Hoosier? Slower? Will American Racer be offering a better contingency award program than Hoosier? What is your justification to changing the tire? Is it cheaper than the Hoosier? Was Hoosier asked to place a competitive bid to renew their FE tire deal? I happen to know the answer to these last two questions is no. Why have none of the answers to any of the above questions been provided to the racers?
When there is no obvious justification for changing the tire given to the racers one is left to wonder what the motivation for the change is? Considering that this decision was taken without racer input and made by the CRB, SCCA Enterprises and the SCCA Customer Service Reps (CSRs) a logical assumption would be that those who stand to make money off selling people tires see a benefit in the new deal for themselves.
I’ll conclude by saying that 6 months from now I could be singing the praises of the American Racer tire as it could turn out to be a good deal for all parties. If that ends up being the case, fantastic. That doesn’t change the fact that the way this rule was pushed through at the 11th hour during the middle of a racing season without racer input is garbage. This type of tactic by SCCA leadership leaves the members feeling that their voice is irrelevant and opinions unwelcome. The racers are the reason this club exists and it would be wise to take their interests and concerns more seriously.
Respectfully,
Michael Mueller
-------
Michael Mueller
2011 & 2012 SCCA Formula 500 National Champion
Hear Hear!
Thank you, Mike. I was wondering if there had been something I had missed entirely, other than the informal bits of information I have gotten.
The one thing I would add to your observations and comments, which I wholly concur with, is that it is only in preliminary minutes from the 3/1/16 meeting, not yet to be officially published in Fastrack until approximately 3/20/16, that there is notice given, allowing, at best, 40 days for comment, approval, implementation and sourcing - let alone testing and set-up changes.
In addition, I am now forced into limbo as to ordering tires for the 4/30 - 5/1 Majors race at MSRH.
I also can not opine on comparison of the tires, but I have a strong negative opinion on the process and proposed timetable.
Other than the few comments here, is everyone else (i) unaware, (ii) unconcerned, or, (iii) a participant in some decision process that has taken place elsewhere?
If you're only running track days, then who cares what you run.. buy take-offs until the cows come home. Go to your local SCCA races, make friends with FE / ESR teams and get their used tires with plenty of life left. As noted, the competitive edge is gone after about 4 cycles, but you're not competing so doesn't matter.
I do the same with my PFM. Maybe catch you at VIR later this year! Cheers.
FF wants a spec tire and gets blocked by SCCA just about every step of the way.
FE has a great tire, and gets a new one without any push or initiative by the members.
There absolutely needs to be testing from multiple FE teams before any decision can/should be made. The only thing that would make sense is that A/R builds a tire that is the same cost or less and lasts many more heat cycles competitively.
The only thing that can be said at this point is the price point is very similar to the Hoosiers (~$830/set)
However,I have a "feeling" there will be an announcement soon enough regarding the reason A/R is being given a seat at the table. The contingencies might just make it all worth it...
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
Hoosier are $680 a set, just saying!
JR
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most ! "
I paid $870 for a set including mounting/balancing at the track. I assumed the mounting/balancing was only $80-100 or so. I might have been shafted a little on that one.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
Jeff, the Hoosier retail on FE tires was $660, prior to 2012. In 2012-2013 they were $700 a set. 2014-2015 they were $720. They've gone to $738 in 2016, which is still a smoking deal for a really good set of race slicks.
Dan, I'm assuming you bought those tires from a retailer that had to charge you sales tax. In Illinois that would be $52.20 on top of the $720. If they were mounted, balanced, purged with nitrogen, stagger taped to balance left and right for both front and rear, your old tires dismounted and disposed of, that would probably cost around $100. Added together thats about $870. I wouldn't doubt that there was some freight involved as well.
There's a haze in the valley over the creek crossing. Hopefully, in your case, its just fog.
Competition One Racing
racer6@mchsi.com
Dont throw away old Hoosiers please!!!
Hey everyone,
I am new to FE and I am looking for practice tires that I can run at a track locally so they don't have to be the American Racer's. If anyone has usable Hoosiers please let me know. The car I bought came with 2 sets of 2 heat cycle tires. I wouldn't mind getting a few more sets. Thank you!!
Well this thread has twisted from it's original purpose. When I started it I knew nothing of the proposed tire change. I simply thought that after 6 heat cycles there was a bit of a drop off in tire performance and after 8 heat cycles there was a pronounced difference. I simply wanted someone to verify this so I could blame my slower lap times on the dag gone tires.
I have been told by someone who should know that I will like the new tires as the performance drop off is not as significant, but since the overall diameter is approx. 1/2 larger you probably will have to adjust the ride height downward 1/4 inch for the new tires.
I probably won't be doing this right away as it won't matter a lot during a track day events and I still have a set of sticker Hoosier rains to burn up.
I was going to race the ESR a bit this spring but I'll just run my new GEN 3 SRF for awhile. Yes we (SRF) are on Hoosiers and they made the correct tire sizes for us, something GY would not do. Hoosier's support that track continues to be outstanding and the FE/ESR class will miss that. With the limited potential for sales in FE / ESR and the other formula classes I would not expect to see an American Racer support truck at a track near you.
If after the switch over anyone has some sticker or very low heat cycle count Hoosier tires left over I will probably purchase them, just let me know when you got something available.
Remember to add shipping to the cost of American Racer tires because they will not be at the track to deliver or service them. You will need to find someone who can mount them without bending your wheels.
I was merely replying to a poster who mentioned a cost of the tires much less than what I paid. I appears their understanding of the cost of FE tires was incorrect and thus caused me to wonder about why my cost was so much higher. It appears the price I paid was very fair when considering the prices you posted. Thanks for clearing that up!
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
FE Tires
They won't even be at the track?
Has anyone been able to come up with a single reason as to why this is a good idea? Who does this help?
Contingency?
OK, I have read all of the posts and my decision is made. We are officially selling our FE and getting out of SCCA....
Just when a series/class is making a comeback someone throws a wrench in. I agree, what about the racers? How can a decision be made "to do what's best for the group" without racer input?
If I am reading this correct I assume the higher price on the A/R tires is to fund a contingency.
A tire supplier has to make a profit margin in order to stay in business. They can't just sell tires, and give their profits back through a contingency fund. Could it make sense that the higher price is to fund the contingency (if there is one on the horizon)? Higher prices could just be that simple, the racers are paying for their own contingency in one form or another. I would be more than happy to pay the additional money to Hoosier so they can do the same thing. We were very happy with the performance, wear and trackside support. It sounds like there may be others saying the same thing.
Please let the racers have a voice. Let's stay with a good company with great trackside support and a known product. While we were not around in the earlier days it is my understanding that Hoosier stuck with FE when the numbers dwindled to develop the tire we are on today. Shouldn't we support them now?
By the way, the FE is not for sale. LOL. We love the FE family. The relationships we have built with SCCA, other drivers, teams and families have been outstanding. Can't wait to get Hanna back on the track regardless of what tire we are on. GOTCHA! It's going to be a great 2016..
For those of you that I have not had the pleasure of meeting yet I hear what everyone is saying. I also hope that the racers voice will be heard. We are good to go and will support the series regardless of what tire we will be on. Let's go racing'.
so, these guys are not going to be at the track, we have to order and have shipped from a what appears to be a very limited distributor network (i am in WV, looks like i need to ship from mid-Viriginia, Indiana or Massachusetts), find someone to mount and balance them... how is this better than what hoosier has been providing for years?
who tested and what were the results?
tires are not listed in the american racer catalog, and i did not see anything about contingencies for them
Nope, none in Indiana. It's actually the city Indiana of Pennsylvania. I'm in Indiana and there are no distributors in the state according to AR's website. I tried calling the closest distributor to me and he had no idea what I was talking about and never heard of Formula Enterprise. Not a good start. I then tried calling the AR sales rep number and it has been disconnected. I'm stumped at this point.
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
i was given 724 349 7210 to contact them. was told they were expecting SCCA to put out a press release in the next couple of days explaining everything.
Great, thanks
I race communist race cars.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling, there are rules." - Walter Sobchak
Have you ever seen an AR trailer at the track? That answers your 'do they do trackside support' question. I've never seen an AR tire at a Majors, let alone a trackside trailer. That should tell everyone something.
Just for some background and not trying to sound like a Hoosier shrill, although I do appreciate the focus they have for amateur racing, here is how the FE tire came about as I understand it. I learned this through trying to use FE tires on a different car and talked to Hoosier about it at length. When these cars were designed, they were basically an Irish Formula Libre spec car. (Original spec seen here - http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72160) Hoosier was asked to create a tire that would work with the chassis. Being a spec chassis, it is what it is. Hoosier went through a pretty significant effort to make a tire that would work for this chassis. The fronts are R35 compounds, the rears are R45s. The molds are also a combination of preexisting molds and spacers.
That said, I find it very, very hard to believe that another company has a tire on the shelf that is even close to what Hoosier has developed. I am not saying no one else can make it, but unless AR has done a lot of super secret testing with a flock of cars and drivers, I doubt they have something off the shelf that will. Or, maybe that is part of the plan and all you FE folks now get to buy some new bellcranks, shocks, springs from Enterprise to make these new tires work.
My guess is SCCA will back down after all the member input.
My next guess is Skimants is just the fall guy for this. It makes no sense for the out-going Pres to submit such a proposal.
This is total bullsh*t.
Just wait...it will get better. It's SCCA.
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