?
I was thinking about the NW region and how their numbers have grown in the FC class. This thread was about how the NER can do what the NW region has already done. is the answer as simple as " do what they have already done"? I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel, so however the racers communicated with each other, we do the same because we know it works. What was step one for the NW region in building a great race community for the FC class? Lets start there.
My two cents
don
I believe this thread was our turning point.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...hlight=Ccoffin
While we had been building for a couple years at that point, this was where we started to all get on the same page.
Ask for everyone's emails. Keep a central email list, stay in communication, decide where you are all going to race together at. Figure out who is missing and find a way to get in contact with them.
calling all FC drivers in the northeast
SCCA's website list of car counts for the regional races last year is interesting . This does not include any of the entries in the Majors or any of the Pro series in the country. The cars in the group that FC races in is telling. Out of the 37 regional races in NER there were a total number of these cars registered,
CF 40
CFC 11
P1 32
P2 33
FA 4
FB 27.........where have all the FC's gone ?
FC 30 217 total in the country
FE 11
FM 1
FS 8
In the separate group the NER wants to lump us in with
FF 84 cars 404 total in the country
FV 194 cars just in NER and 424 cars in the country.
These are the 2 largest open wheel car groups in the country.
I just don't see the justification of putting fast formula cars in with these cars. If the fast formula cars are left in there own group maybe more will come out. To disrupt the FV,FF group makes them want to stay home too. The car count suffers all around. I hope the NER sees this and does not put all these cars together. Again I would like all of the fast formula cars to watch the entries and the grouping to see if it is done.
Drum up support and commitment from the wings and things people, then start attending the NER Board of Director (BOD) meetings and Race Competition meetings. I was once NER assistant Regional Exec and on the BOD for a few years. Take those commitments from the wings and things people with you to those meetings to argue your case for your own run group. If they give that run group to you, and you don't have at least 15 cars, you will likely not get a second chance.
The models for how to make this happen are in the NER FV group, the FC group previously mentioned, and to some extent, the FB group. Get an email and location list of everyone with purpose built race cars (wings and things) in the Division. Start communicating and coordinating.
My work situation may change soon and be back living in CT. If that happens, I'll help.
ccoffin
I send you a PM. I wanted to know if you could add me to your newsletter?
thanks don
Rod there in lies the problem. I have heard nothing from anyone other then those who have posted here on this thread.Originally Posted by RobLav
HT
Agree this thread is pretty indicative of the health of club (not semi-pro) FC on the east coast. The fact that NER removed the wings and things group is even worse. I remember the day when the wings and things group was so well subscribed that FF was grouped with FV's, and they all complained. Now we can't even retain our own run group. Maybe it's time to simply run a Boxster or Cayman with PCA... or run with Bob Wright.
I think the last comment would be best if you wanted to run FC. I don't see why more don't come out & run with FRP in the East at least, there is all different levels of competition for everyone to have someone to race with. Basically this is what this thread is about, getting FC cars to commit to running certain events, well the schedule is published, lots of cars running. The cost of the weekends is a little higher then SCCA weekends but only by about a third or so higher compared to costs I have seen. Track time is greater & once again it is single class racing.
In my mind the SCCA should become a sanctioning body & let promoters run events as best they can.
Steve Bamford
Our experience early on was much the same with only minor interest being shown on chat sites.
The list was the key. I searched every result in the northwest for FC entries over the previous five years and proceeded to stalk the owners with e mails and phone calls to promote the idea of "what if we had a race and everyone came?"
At the track I introduced myself to anyone who would listen to my " FC cars are the fastest a normal guy can go for the money" pitch
It was not until the third season of stalking and pitching that a large field (11) showed up at a single race that folks started to get interested and we were able to expand the concept to other tracks
This is why I first joined the class." FC cars are the fastest a normal guy can go for the money"
Hilton,
I am fairly new to FC and my car(97VD) should be out there this year.
I have not selected a schedule other than WGI in July and maybe Sept.
my email is stevenfrederick248@gmail.com
Lets plan LRP in June
2006
2007
So are looking to organize the FC drivers in the North East? What area and tracks fit what you are trying to accomplish?
I plan to run the GLC series this year as it is relatively close to me.
I would be willing to travel in the fall this year for an event that has some attendance.
I'm in for anything that grows the class.
You are a ways away. The tracks I will run this year are all as close as possible until I know the car and driver are capable of performing well to pay the money it takes to travel long distances to race. My closest track is Lime Rock. Unfortunately they will only have a couple of SCCA races this year. Then we have Thompson in Ct. but they have insisted on putting the fast formula cars with the FV and FF cars making for an unpleasant time for all. Palmer in Ma. is new and under construction. Interesting track and can be a fun place to race. Bring a deck of cards because you can't see a thing if you are not the one on the track racing. Watkins Glen, the new track surface should be great. I wish there were more races there this year. So if you want to come east and race, please do but know what you are getting into when you do. I'm sounding like all I want to do is bash everyone who runs or owns a race track in the Northeast. Well I am saying what I have experienced and what I have heard from other formula car drivers why they have dropped off the grid and have become dissatisfied with racing at all. Why do you think the tracks cater to the Miata classes ? Because there are 150 of them entered at every race at every track. We need numbers at the track racing. In the beginning it will still be all the things we all hate and frustration will still be there. But then you have the ability to start a dialog with the track or organizations running the race to at least talk about maybe changing things in our favor. But when the fast formula group is a total of 5 cars, you are just a pain in the ass. And those 5 are not even the same ones at every race. There is almost a different 5 at every race .
HELLO HELLO HELLO IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE LISTENING ? IS THERE ANYONE THAT CARES ? HELLO HELLO
HT
I sent one email out to the promoter of the Ice breaker weekend at Thompson first thing in the spring. This is what he wrote back to me.
Hilton,
What type of car are you running? FA?
The Open Wheel group is for the small bore cars only. Last year we did not offer any open wheel group for this event because it is early in the year and did not think we would get a turnout. We heard from a number of the FV and FF guys that they will attend. So we made a group for them. Nice thing about them is they have their own association that tend to race as a group so it is easy to justify making up a group for just them.
How many of the "wings and things" do you think you might be able to have attend? If you could get 12 to 14 to sign up we could add a group for you.
Also, we are running a Open Wheel Weekend May 19 through 21. It is an SCCA pro event for the Formula Lites series, but we are having FVs, FFs and Legends run. We could easily run another open wheel group. For that weekend just open wheel cars (I know the Legends are not exactly open wheel, but they do put on a great show) so we'd like to see as many different kinds of open wheel cars as we can . Do you think your guys would go for that weekend?
Thanks for your interest.
Lou
Lou
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On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:50 PM, <airadltd@saratogabreadbasket.com> wrote:
Lou your site says any licensed racer with an SCCA license will be allowed to race. In your list of groups racing you only show a group for the small bore formula cars, FV,FF,CF. There is no group for fast formula cars. Will we be able to race at this event? Please advise. It is not clear.
Hilton Tallman
Now this sounds an awful lot like what we are looking for. If we can give you enough cars , can we have our own run group. 12 to 14 sounds like a lot and maybe it is. But I think if we had enough 8 to 10 maybe they would do it. I like nothing written in stone and willing to work with us. Now there are 2 race weekends here we are talking about so if one doesn't work maybe the other one will. It would be better to just say can't make it for the first one then to say yes and no one show up. If interested you would have to commit to it no matter what. If that can't happen one or two could destroy the whole thing. The FVs do have an association and that sounds a lot like what the boys in the northwest have also. So talk to Lou yourself or let me know.
HT
Hilton the easiest thing would be an online list where drivers could tenativley add themselves to the list way before they become available with the online registrar which in some cases is shortly before an event. I'd say the list below is somewhat accurate, there are more races listed but VIR, Summit and a few others are hardly NER tracks. Your thoughts?
The NE Majors are below:
June 24-26 Watkins Glen International
July 22-24 New Jersey Motorsports Park
Sept 15-25 Mid Ohio Runoffs
Regionals:
May 7-8 Palmer Motorsports Park (Mothers Day)
May 28-30 NH Motor Speedway (Memorial Day)
June 4-5 NJ Motorsports Park
June 17-18 Lime Rock Park (Fathers Day)
July 9-10 Watkins Glen
July 23-24 Thompson Speedway
August 13-14 NJ Motorsports Park
Sept 3-4 Lime Rock Park NAARC runoffs (Labor Day)
Sept 10-11 Palmer Motorsports Park
Sept 17-18 Watkins Glen
October 8-9 Thompson (Columbus Day)
October 8-9 Watkins Glen
October 22-23 NJ Motorsports Park (Halloween)
Calling all FC drivers
Hilton,
You must except that this may not be an overnight thing.
We started the GLC around here in 2006, because on much the same problems that have been mentioned. We had a lot of cars around here, but not always at the same event.
The numbers grew, then they went down and now they are coming back. That's just the nature of something as expensive as racing. But the thing is, the GLC series kept going.
The core principle is why were are here today.
My thought has always been, if you can get a few to constantly show up, then others will want to join in. Waterford Hills has some clases that I would bet, don't exist anywhere else, because they have support for that class.
That's what's happened here.
We did have one edge, many were already my customers, so we had a mailing list.
But beyond that, it was Jim Roberts taking the reins in the first number of years, going to all the races on the GLC groups schedule and keeping things flowing.
I've explained this process to many others over the years.
This is not much different then what we did when SCCA would only issue National points at a race if you had someone else in your class. We called others and worked on them to make some events.
Good luck.
Keith Averill
we can do it
I agree with Dennis's approach, make a list of events and then drivers can add their name to the event so everyone can see who is going. Some drivers can only travel so far to a track, lets a 4 hour haul. But if one driver is 4 hours south and one driver is 4 hours north that will cover a large territory.
Kea makes a good point which we all kind of know, it will probably take a couple of years to get everyone back in to it. all its going to take is one good event that 10 to 15 cars show up for and bang, the buzz begins.
I will commit time in helping to get FC drivers organized in NER. My email address is donmmc@verizon.net.
I will be taking the majors race in VIR- april 15,16,17 for one car.
I will be attending the lime rock race in june 17, 18 for one car.
I'm also attending the Watkins glen race in july 9, 10 for one car.
and I'm open to other events, lets make this happen and have fun!
thanks don
Steve,
You are mostly right as compared to Majors racing in SCCA. If you look at the Majors schedule and compare it to the FRP schedule it is close. Cost for license, entry fee, close. Track time, not bad. But what you are not looking at is the rest of the picture. FRP is only three groups. I call for FC because they are the largest car group in the racing group but not the biggest group of cars on the track. There are several other cars out there with us. FA, FB, FE, P1, P2, and on and on. Put them all together and they make up more of the group then the FC cars. But the FC cars are the glue that would hold the rest of the group together when just some of the other cars are able to show up at a race. The FRP and even the Majors schedule is not achievable for most of the racers in club racing. I've done it , as you know. Atlanta, VIR, Summit, Pitt are all tracks way farther away then the tracks club racers can or are willing to go to. These guys don't pay a team to haul there cars to the track, work on them, haul them home, while hopping on a plane and showing up in the morning ready to get in the car. Not bashing that at all. Most of the guys that run FRP couldn't do it any other way. It is the only way they could go racing. The club racers haul there own cars, maybe have a motor home to sleep in, have a friend, wife , family member with them to help, do all the work themselves. Then there is the time involved in doing these races. If there is a practice day, it is on Thursday. Race weekend is Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Lets look at the last trip I took, Atlanta. 16 hours driving time. So to be there I left Tuesday, got close, spent the night, got there noon on Wednesday. Registered, set up, checked in to the motel, ready to go on Thursday. Now if you do the race weekend you will pack up Sunday night, maybe start home, but stay somewhere and be home sometime Monday. Back to work on Tuesday. No track time on Thursday still has you on the road Thursday at the latest to be checked in and ready to race on Friday at any of the tracks I mentioned, from NER. From where I live I would still have to leave sometime Wednesday. Now the cost. Any of these weekend races for FRP cost me $4000.00 to $5000.00 for the weekend . That is all expenses , to and from, race expenses and hooking up with a team and paying for a mechanic to help for the weekend. How many of these racers still work for a living ? The time they would have to take off from work to attend these races is quit a bit. Unless you work for yourself it would be impossible to make all these races. And if you do work for yourself you would need someone taking your place that you trust to keep the money flowing while you were gone so you can keep going and spending for the series. All to be able to run in the back of the pack with someone you can race with is not worth the expense, or time. The FRP series is a place for those guys to go race and enjoy it and more power to them for doing it. I look at the series and say these guys are committed , God love them , or should they just be committed. My goal is to try to inspire these guys to come out and get the biggest bang for there limited bucks and have an enjoyable race weekend rather then going home with a bitter taste in there mouths . Be able to race local and have fun doing so. I just feel everyone has given up for one reason or another. Steve thanks for the post. It gives everyone a chance to comment on the subject and starts a dialog on the subject.
HT
It's one of the great pumpkins Charlie Brown. Dennis you are right. I have an Idea but need help doing it. If I can pull it off, I'll post the results. Like in my post to Steve, maybe the Majors at Watkins Glen can be done, but the others, most won't want to do. Can't wait to get on the new surface at Watkins Glen. Two things I noticed in your list. First you didn't list the Icebreaker at Thompson. The FV guys said last year it was great. Lots of track time and treated very well. I emailed Lou with the prospect of maybe not being able to fill a 10 or 14 car field and his answer was we can work it out. The race weekend is April 29, 30. I think everyone could make that. You list NH that same weekend. From what I see and hear, NH is not a fast formula friendly place for the last couple or years. The track has become so rough it is hard on the cars and drivers. I would rather drive 3 hours to Thompson then 4 plus hours to NH and get beat up and maybe break my car. Keep in touch and can't wait to see the "Secret Weapon" this year.
HT
All good points.
Let me ask, what tracks make sense to run at in NER for most you are targeting?
Watkins Glen race weekend is always Friday to Sunday, if all FRP events were the same 3 days would that work? i believe the Majors are similar time frame unless the track itself offers a test day on Thursday but that is optional for all.
Steve Bamford
Steve we have 2 new tracks in the northeast , Thompson, and Palmer. From me in NY they are both about the same time to get to, around 2 1/2 , 3 hours. Watkins Glen, 4 , LRP 2 , NJ is a ways away , maybe 7 hours , all can be reached for a weekend race. Thompson can run races on Sunday but can't start before noon. Makes for a late night drive home. I understand Lime rock is in court right now trying to be allowed to race on Sundays again. Good luck to them. Palmer runs Friday and Saturday because of an agreement with the town. To know the hostile environment you are going into there, there re no signs to the track or at the track promoting it. The neighbors go around and take them down and destroy them. Sweep for land mines.
Watkins Glen being 3 days isn't the problem. Like I just said a lot of the race weekends are Friday and Saturday or Friday , Saturday and Sunday. It is the guys bringing themselves to the track not a hired team hauling them in and out. I have finished putting the car together at night, hauled out there by midnight, got in my room for the night and been in line at 7 Friday morning. I don't think Friday is a day you are on the track at 8:00 for the start of the event. Also there is still the cost of running FRP or even the Majors. WG is the closest venue to race these races. The others are to far away to be able to run for most club/ regional racers. Both time and money become the factors. I had mentioned , in another thread, that at the WG Majors race the number one qualifier for FC started 25th on the grid for the race. Now the format for the Majors has changed somewhat. I now see the fast formula cars have been separated into 2 groups, the top group with FA and P1 down to FC, with the FC cars heading up the second group of cars down through I think FE, and others. You might find some guys will try one or two races in FRP or the Majors just to see what it is like. But I don't think you will ever see the majority of these racers be involved in a full or partial season with either FRP or the Majors. Again I'm just trying to organize a way for these regional and club racers to be able to see who is racing and when so they can maybe get enthusiastic about loading up and going to race.
Keith, I know. It can be and probably will be a long drawn out process. This is still in the beginning stages of just trying to get everyone's attention. Can't do anything if you don't have the parties involved attention and asking questions, good or bad, about how to do this. I see who is lurking in the shadows on the list here. I can see there are a lot of people paying attention to this thread. Maybe because they are interested or maybe for the comic relief. But for right now it is like the old saying, say anything you want about me as long as you spell my name right. Remember this is about racing first.
HT
Donnie thanks for all the input. Be carful what you ask for, you're liable to get it. Keep making suggestions and bring ideas to the dialog. These are the first steps and as long as the ideas keep coming in we can keep the momentum going.
HT
Just went back and looked...
I was trying to create a FC/F2000 Registry years ago. Last update was 2010.
Make, chassis year, engine type, owner, location, contact info, etc.
At that time I had drug up 253 cars from Canada to Key West. I think one goal at the time was to convince the CRB that there were not thousands of cars out there,
The spreadsheet has about 100 email addresses, and is cross referenced to Apexspeed avatars. When I reviewed it today I could spot dozens of changes that I know of. (e.g. Greg Coffin has an 85 Swift)
Not sure the list would be a good tool today. Maybe a starting point?
Greg still has the Swift it's just not his primary weapon of choice these days.
At the risk of adding confusion to this tread
Does anyone have any experiences with the FRCCA?
How are the car count with this group?
Thanks!
I have no dog in the fight.
With that said, I like what PFrog and many others here are saying. IMHO, worth nada, is that F2000 was a sweet spot from a financial and car capability standpoint back in 2007-ish. Zetec allowed in SCCA and the great Pro series kept it hard for pinto guys no matter the budget or talent (in my case the lack thereof). Over the years after I left in 2008 I'd visit a race or two and saw the diminished qty of FC at SCCA regionals. It was kinda depressing to see.
I'll avoid all the economic market mumbo jumbo and personal time available nowadays.... First bring back an even playing field. Keeps costs 'reasonable' and remember it is about all racers being friends and having fun. Perhaps the last point is the most important.
Imho
...and have not visited this forum in a long long time, and yes F2000 racing was about 45% of what cost me my first marriage. If you're curious or even remember me or care, am now in lovely FL with a truly mesmerizing in EVERY WAY wife. Am now at a point in life I could race again, or at least track and wall a few Lotus Elise cars. Truly wish I could help you guys somehow,my eat have no dog in the fight and am in FL to boot.
Note to self, call Glenn and see how he's been over the past 6 years.
Hope you guys find a great solution, as F2000 is a great car, fun to race and you guys were so friggen awesome to hang around with. Perhaps it is about having fun first and foremost and racing being second.i
Enjoy the Track,
Steven
http://www.EnjoyTheTrack.com
Was 99/00 FC, now am Just Waiting. Racing is life...
Haven't heard from you in a while Steve. We had some fun back then. Unfortunately and regretfully, Glenn has passed.
(tears) Hope his children are ok. Glenn and I spoke often during his wife's medical situation...
----------------
shifting gears
----------------
Rob, GREAT hearing from you! Yeah, good times. What have you been up to nowadays? Your car nowadays is ???? If you ever make it to Longboat Key let me know, would love to meetup.
Enjoy the Track,
Steven
http://www.EnjoyTheTrack.com
Was 99/00 FC, now am Just Waiting. Racing is life...
Ner fc
My son Alex and I are coming back after doing a complete rebuild of our 2000 VD but with limited resources we are sticking with the Pinto even if it's a bit slower. Hope more drivers come out regardless of what car they drive. Regionals have always been a great place to compete with friends. The more friends the more fun.
We are trying to make Palmer but will be at NHMS for sure. Hope to see some old friends there.
I may even dust off my suit and try a race this year.
Nice to hear again from you Kjell. Been a few years.
I'll ask the question to try and get something rolling. This is not for just FC cars, it is for all cars that would normally be racing together as fast formula cars in our group. As I mentioned before, there is a race at Thompson being put on by OTB Promotions on April 29 - 30. It is not an SCCA event. Like I said before I had talked to the promoter and he told me if we could get 10 to 14 cars together he would give us our own race group. I asked him why he didn't do this before. His comment was he thought it was to early in the year for us to want to race. I told him it might be hard to come up with 10 to 14 cars for the first event. I thought more like 8 to 10 might be doable. He did not think that was out of line and said he could work with that. So he is being very flexible to our racing at his event. He is also doing another one later in the season with the Formula lites cars. He would very much like us to be a part of that one also. So my question is how many of you out there would be ready, willing and able to come to this race ? don't have to contact me on this site. You can contact me other then here. Sooner we get something going, sooner we know what we are getting. The race is listed on Thompsons website only. There are 2 IceBreaker races listed. The first one is for the stock car track. The second one is the road racing one. Everybody ask someone else if they are ready and would like to go or why not.
Hilton
I can't make an April event, and a lot of your NE div tracks are a long haul for me and others out here... BUT... if you were to consider holding some of your NE events in a location that would be easier for some of us in GLC to get to, such as Pitt Race, that could help you get numbers. And having a few weekends with bigger numbers might help you grow your own division for your other events.
Just a thought. cheers.
Cade
Hilton, With regard to having people chime in and respond, we find that many people read ApexSpeed, but don’t post for a variety of reasons. Getting folks to reply via e-mail is far better, although still not perfect. ApexSpeed gets the word out, but correspondence is better via e-mail directly.
With regard to NER and the number of groups and merging of classes, last year (2015) NER tried “something new” - 1) merge classes to create less run groups - down to 5 groups, and 2) run 5 sessions per weekend instead of 4. As you stated, the open wheel folks were not happy and entries dropped from us.
After the season was over, the region sent out two surveys to find out if people liked the goings on for 2015. The results were that people liked the previous class grouping better (where we had 7-8 groups) and the 4 session weekend. People also voted to not merge incompatible classes due to safety. This is a good result for us!
NER has responded to the survey results and seem to be moving back to the 7-8 race groups, and also four sessions per weekend. We need to enforce with them that this is a good thing, and work with them to help make the old way work by doing what you’re trying to do - getting people to get together and get back on the track. FV in NER for 2016 is forming a series to help cluster folks at certain weekends to help bolster car counts and working with the Region to arrange which weekends those will be. This so far seems to be working well.
However, it’s clear that at some events NER will struggle with very low open wheel car counts. In that situation, it may only make sense to merge, say two non-competing fast formula cars, with a largely FV group. This is a point for discussion.
As you suggested, FV in the NER has bandied together to do what FC seems to be doing in the northwest. And we also have a few individuals who represent the FV class directly to the region through correspondence & telecoms with the region directors & attending the meetings. This has also already been mentioned in this thread, and we find it really helps.
However, I feel it’s important for all formula folks in the NER to correspond with each other so there is yet another common voice with a common interest and agenda so we as Formula car drivers can work with the region to help be a solution to the problem of lowering car counts.
That being said, I’d suggest each open wheel class have their racers correspond under an e-mail grouping for their particular class (or a few classes), and then one or two representative from each class correspond with the other formula class representatives so we understand what each other is doing and work with each other to make something work for all the open wheel classes and the NER, for example.
With the season starting in about a month’s time, I think we should start sooner than later. What about each class coming up with a rep or two and we’ll arrange a telecon between the reps?
With regard to the NER, for 2016 it seems that most race weekends are settling on separate fast and slow formula groupings as of this time. Nothing is carved in stone, but it’s getting close to that. If we can have better formula car counts, we can help ensure that it goes this way.
If each class can have their racers pick and prioritize which race weekends they would want to go attend, that would be a great start.
The NER May Palmer weekend is looking like we’ll have separate groups, but it is not set in stone.
John
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