FC at 2015 Runoffs

[R. Pare]

Off the top of my head and in no particular order and not based on any one car:

....................................
*Mechanical
Ceramic wheel bearings

If anyone was actually using ceramic wheel bearings, I suggest that they read the rule book again.

[Marshall Mauney]

How many working stiffs that are not retired or commanders of their own business afford to take two weeks to run one race out of town?

True. That said, though, the last time somebody suggested splitting it into two events to give the competitors a shorter schedule, the idea was tossed aside because it didn't allow for the level of "all-hands" camaraderie that the club seems to prefer.

I also think that multi-day qualifying is a must, in order to give every car/driver combination a chance to get their absolute best effort into the timesheets.

More of the races should be run under the lights.
I'm not sure the residents of Daytona knew a race event was going on.

ABSOLUTELY! My thought as the fireworks started at the end of the Spec Miata race was "They should have run three highly-subscribed classes and sold tickets to this....".

While a few of the races were snoozefests because the leader ran away and hid, there were a bunch of REALLY good groups - some where I didn't expect the racing to be so close. I think that we may be under-estimating how good our racing can be vs. some of what passes for "pro" events.

I believe vendors should not be charged fees. Let in as many vendors as want to come. Make the event a "spectacle". Even allow sandal and sunglass vendors for the wives to browse through. We have created a scenario where vendors don't come, or sign on as crew with a team, and "hide" in the paddock with no signage, getting their location out by word-of-mouth.

As one of the "hidden" vendors who also drove in the race, I absolutely agree. How much is actually collected from vendor entry fees? Is it enough to really make a difference in the total cost of the event? Isn't it better to open the gates as wide as possible to allow the competitors to be as supported as possible?

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I believe you're right, Frog. We were feeling the squeeze of FC expense/competition ratio even back in 2005... It's what caused us to switch to FE which I'm very surprised it's not drawing SRF size fields at this point. Even though we were not a front runner in FC, there were those who could go testing the latest and greatest wizzy bits being developed on a spare no expense budget. That's pretty much the norm now it seems. The introduction of the pro series attracted the bulk of the FCs that were running at that level causing the FC fields in the SCCA to dwindle from 20+ car fields to less than your current average formula car field now.

I think the biggest unattractiveness of FE is politics and the fact that its run by the SCCA.
And there's no wiggle room for much creativity.

Question from the ignorant:
Spec series like SM are extremely popular but FE is not (FM is far more popular than FE out west here). Why does FE have a sealed engine but SM does not?
Politics?

[Keith Carter]

I'm not sure that argument holds water as the SRF is run by SCCA Enterprises as well and they're extremely popular in many regions. We've been told before that SCCA Enterprises is a separate entity from the SCCA. Whatever the relationship is between the SCCA and SCCA Enterprises, I think that having a single governance on a class is as close to spec as you can get with all motors being dyno'd within one or two HP of eachother and parts being sourced. While SM is extremely popular due to its cost, it doesn't have that kind of regulation as FE and SRF does and then you have the fiasco that happened at Laguna last year due to ones interpretation of the rules for the engines he provides his customers. Anyway, I think my FE talk has hijacked this thread enough.. Back to your regularly scheduled FC is dying discussion.

[RSS]

Wasn't there 24ish FC cars out at Laguna for last years runoffs? As with all classes there is more support for different classes and different sanctioning bodies throughout the country. If the runoffs are out east they will loose FC cars to the F2k series out west it wasn't an issue.

Same with FE their are none in the PNW but that does not represent the class as a whole.

[EYERACE]

#1 question I got from the locals I met was "why didn't they advertise?"

Monday of the second week I called two of the local TV station Sports Directors......they had no clue the RunOffs were at Daytona saying they rely on the Daytona people to send word to them. I have no idea if either Station ended up at the track........their weekend would have been preoccupied with Friday High School Football and then Saturday College games because down South.........College Football is a seasonal Religion

[Tom Valet]

There was an article on Jim Downing on the front page of the Sports section of the paper but it ran on Sunday, the last day of the Runoffs. I agree, very little promotion which is a shame as this was a great racing event and could have generated a lot of interest in the club. The Friday night SM race in particular, with 61 cars, would have been a great spectator event.

[jimj11]

SCCA Secret Car Club of America

[Jon Jeffords]

I'ts my observation that racers rarely steal from racers. Thus, when I'm racing at Road America I leave everything out in the open and unprotected when I head to the grid with my crew. Unless its the June Sprints (read: general admission gate), then we lock down anything and everything, including the doors to the tow vehicle. Too many wallets go missing from the Road America paddock when the general public is milling about.

[rickb99]

Too many wallets go missing from the Road America paddock when the general public is milling about.

I'm a great believer in inviting the public to SCCA races. But I'm from the generation of SCCA that started in the 1950's. Back then, our Nationals event in Tucson was open to the general public (with a gate fee) and back then, the general public wasn't prone to having sticky fingers. It just wasn't part of the basic nature of people.

The annual National was run on the airport runways. Yes, back then, the BIG airport in Tucson was TOTALLY closed on the weekends because there were zero commercial flights on weekends back then. Airport closed at midnight Friday and reopened at sunrise on Monday. Blue laws were in effect too. It was a more relaxed time.

Of course it was also a time when Jim Hall, Hap Sharp and Dave Mc Donald were SCCA club racers. And some other rich oil man from Oklahoma would hall his Birdcage Maserati to Tucson for the event. Hall and Sharp were driving Lister Corvettes back then.

[Tom Valet]

FC replay is up on the SCCA site. I can't link from my iPad, sorry.

[Bill Johnson 42]

The Birdcage Maserati was Jack Hinkle, a banker out of Wichita Kansas. The rich oil dude out of Oklahoma was Bobby Aylward. For some reason I thought that Birdcage was the coolest racecar I had ever seen back then. Hinkle went on to a newer Brabham sports racer, don't remember the model and crashed it bad at Lake Afton. Both he and Aylward moved to, at the time of the real CanAm series, current gen CanAm cars. Hinkle had a Lola and Bobby Aylward had a McLaren. Seemed like every year they had the newest version cars. Some pretty cool club racing back then.

[Mike Devins]

Yufeng Luo and Pabst Racing were the class of the week.
The car was stunningly well prepared. The custom '97-like nose was beautiful.............

The 97-like nose was really more inspired by the current Citation than the 97. I had been interested for some time in making a new nose for the VD that took advantage of the maximum overhang rule. We had done the nose that Cooper ran on his 1600 and remodeled it. Rick Payne ran the Cooper/Vestal nose on the FF this week end and also tested the new nose in FF configuration. Rick ran the Cooper style nose in the race.

Thanks to Tonis, Augie and Yufeng Lou for a great showing of our products.

[rickb99]

The Birdcage Maserati was Jack Hinkle, a banker out of Wichita Kansas. The rich oil dude out of Oklahoma was Bobby Aylward. For some reason I thought that Birdcage was the coolest racecar I had ever seen....

I still think the Birdcage is close to the best looking race car ever. I'm shocked! You are right, I couldn't remember his name but now that I see it Jack Hinkle was the Birdcage owner who towed to Tucson. The reason we could draw such renowned people (including Max Balchowsky with Old Yeller) is, Tracy Byrd lived in Tucson and he was the head of the SCCA at the time. He also owned a Ferrari 250 Testa Rosa that won the Pan American Road Race in the early 1950's.

[Stan Clayton]

I still think the Birdcage is close to the best looking race car ever. I'm shocked! You are right, I couldn't remember his name but now that I see it Jack Hinkle was the Birdcage owner who towed to Tucson. The reason we could draw such renowned people (including Max Balchowsky with Old Yeller) is, Tracy Byrd lived in Tucson and he was the head of the SCCA at the time. He also owned a Ferrari 250 Testa Rosa that won the Pan American Road Race in the early 1950's.

Sooo...what I'm hearing here is I should NOT toss that nose mold I have for the '59(?) Birdcage?

[kea]

The 97-like nose was really more inspired by the current Citation than the 97. I had been interested for some time in making a new nose for the VD that took advantage of the maximum overhang rule.

This is basically what Bobby Carville did in 1989 when he made the body panels and nose for his Reynard. He moved the front wing location (and style of wing) as far forward as possible, to the point where the wing itself was slightly forward of the fiberglass.

[Northwind]

I also know a guy that was running a Van diemen FB at the 2012 Runoffs that modified the nose and wing this way.

[reidhazelton]

I also know a guy that was running a Van diemen FB at the 2012 Runoffs that modified the nose and wing this way.

I think he had the fastest trap speed too.

[RSS]

This is basically what Bobby Carville did in 1989 when he made the body panels and nose for his Reynard. He moved the front wing location (and style of wing) as far forward as possible, to the point where the wing itself was slightly forward of the fiberglass.

Anybody want to elaborate a little more on the why of moving a front wing as far forward as possible?

[DFR Dave Freitas]

Leverage

[RSS]

not an answer i was expecting but very interesting none the less.

[DaveW]

Leverage

not an answer i was expecting but very interesting none the less.

Moving it forward also tends to make the air less disturbed when it reaches the radiator openings, etc.

[RSS]

That was more what I had assumed along with less disturbance/interference from the nose maybe?

[Modo]

leverage leading to less cord leading to less drag (Cd) leading equal negative lift (Cl) adding lever ratio .......I be supposing ......................

Er, more like upside down positive lift ....

Posto - was taking my walk yesterday, saw JP (neighbor, not scca) and took my camber gauge over to measure his 2015 Z06 to check -.75 camber zero toe ........ he said let's go for a ride, you drive, 650HP wow, never had that before, LOL, spools up as opposed to V8 growling up, nice idle as well, definate wimp effort cause of traffic and actually on a antihistimine hangover!!!!

[DaveW]

Remember that IF the total DF does not change, all you are getting from more leverage at the front is more DF on the front tires at the cost of some lift at the rear. The same but opposite applies at the rear, where more lever-arm length puts more DF at the rear, but takes some off the front.

So, what you are really getting (disregarding any efficiency effects of having the wings in less turbulent air, etc.) is an enhanced understeer/oversteer balance effect with any given adjustment or size of wing.

[JerryH]

As usual, DaveW is absolutely correct.....total downforce does not change...only the adjustability.

moving the wing forward does make it more pitch sensitive.

If the wing is high enough and/or the suspension stiff enough, that is minimized.

The cleaner air could be a slight advantage....depends on where the wing was to begin with.

Airflow to coolers....and downstream effects can be good or bad....depends on the car.

Jerry

[Jnovak]

Depending on a number of variables a front wing with more overhang will usually make the same Df as a set back wing but the more forward wing will have less drag.

[Modo]

downforce same, less cord in the wing, less drag, I like the see-saw effect Dave mentioned, if u add more in the front it tends to fulcrum the back up ........ maybe we should put the wings over the tires like the old chaperrel or the first winged cars..... DaveW got it, clean air and back in those days they were barely attached to the vehicle

[Beartrax]

A Modo post and I understood every word!!!!

[Mike Devins]

Another point of interest is that only 2 FC cars there had top mount rear wings.

[Marshall Mauney]

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that the SCCA runoffs grids have more unique engineering approaches to be found than Indy or NASCAR?

Hmmm..... The complaints that were voiced in the F/SR meeting at Daytona were quite focused, and it seems that they are a result of a handful of guys really putting some time into their car's designs.

I for one, think this is a great development. If this is the legacy of a one-year run at Daytona, it might very well have been very, very good for SCCA.

[Steve Demeter]

good reason for that.

Both Indycar and NASCAR are for all intents and purposes spec cars.

[Marshall Mauney]

Both Indycar and NASCAR are for all intents and purposes spec cars.

Absolutely! My point is that while there is room for spec series', I think that a lot of us who really like the cars find the different engineering approaches very interesting - and entertaining!

I find myself wondering if Indy lost some of their appeal when they went spec....

[Sorry for the thread hijack]

[marshall9]

downforce same, less cord in the wing, less drag, I like the see-saw effect Dave mentioned, if u add more in the front it tends to fulcrum the back up ........ maybe we should put the wings over the tires like the old chaperrel or the first winged cars..... DaveW got it, clean air and back in those days they were barely attached to the vehicle

Like this?

[R. Pare]

I find myself wondering if Indy lost some of their appeal when they went spec....

Yes, they did, and not just a little.

[gcoffin]

Just speculating but it would seem that with a longer lever arm i.e. wing position relative to the front or rear wheels (the fulcrum) the same amount of relative down force can be achieved with a smaller wing and less drag.....in a perfect world.

As pointed out it will also change the balance, front to rear, and the longer the lever arm the more sensitive the wings will be to changes and the greater the relative difference between the wings will be as speed/down force increase.

I have adjusted the rear wing position on my car from factory specs and have seen an increase in the Mygales handling sweet spot over factory settings.

[Modo]

FROG for SCCA FC Runoffs scrutineer ................ So, (I hate this new fad 'SO' now, that is, preface every answer with a So, (translation: It is so that my opinion is twerp this, and twerp that)), reminds me of the old "Warm Fuzzy" of the early nineties corp talk, turned to my boss and said, my god, I'll go with a wet sticky, can't imagine an Admiral getting a warm fuzzy about anything!!!! Now for the meat of the conversation......

Where is the next Runoffs??????????????????????????? .................

P.S. Beach FV above ads, Now we're talkn', SCCA Premier, wonder if DaveW induldged in one, LOL!!!! Eight Miles High playing now, full alblum side, Theme-Schnuff-Theme, little disonance, in key

Looks like the 'Dogers' are not going to take 'No' for an answer!!" 8:54 10/13/2015

10:30 still no, Dogers are King (for the moment)

[RacerDave51]

Mid-Ohio in 2016