First gearset inspection, couple questions

[dsmithwc04]

Hello all. Just tackled pulling the gearbox apart to inspect the gears for the first time and had a couple of questions.

I noticed mostly good things. The gears looked to be in great shape with no pitting with the exception of an issue with the 1st/reverse sliding gear addressed below. The dog rings looked good with the exception of one which I also addressed below. I haven't removed the forks yet but will do tomorrow to give them a closer look.

Here are some questions I came across while taking a look inside...

1. Does this dog ring edge look acceptable? It is slightly worn but not sure if it's enough to worry about.



2. I noticed wear on the outside edge of the teeth on teh 1st/reverse sliding gear. Normal or is something misaligned?



3. Does this look like an excessive amount of fine metal powder in the gear box? The gear lube is mostly clear and the dark coloration is the extremely fine metal powder that settled. I put my finger in it and the metal bits are very very fine. I'm will wipe this all out before I put the box back together.

[Hawke]

It all looks pretty normal to me. I've seen a lot worse, and they still work OK.

You mentioned removing the forks. If you don't have a jig, you should rethink removing them.

[dsmithwc04]

Nope, no jig. How does one inspect them for wear if you don't have a jig?

[Hawke]

If I remember correctly, some wear measurements are available from the Taylor web site. They don't require removement of the forks.

[WRD]

You can actually remove the forks without affecting the set up of the box, the barrel positions the forks so they will go back in the same place with or without a jig.

I would recommend checking the fork pins and barrel tracks for wear, If one of the pins breaks then the box will go into 2 gears at once and you will have bigger problems.

What lube are you running in the box?

Any questions give us a call.

[dsmithwc04]

I'm planning on using Mobil1 75w90.

[SCOTTY81]

Dan
Looks like a little wear on the dogs . Dogs are measured on maximum rounding. Basically 25% of the lug height . The more rounding the less area for engagement. Typically when it is worn out it will kick it self out of gear when unloaded . Move the dogs around into different locations when you do your inspections. Look for flat spots on the fork pins and in the barrel groove. Also check the dog ring groove in the fork . .208 is max wear . 1st/rev fork thickness has a max of .208. Here is a copy of the wear spec sheet .

http://www.taylor-race.com/pdf/StaffsElite.pdf

[dsmithwc04]

Thanks for the info! Anybody try to file the dog rings a tad to remove a little bit of the roundness off? I'd imagine you would need to do it on all of the dogs so that it engages them all equally on the gear?

[dsmithwc04]

Has anybody got hard evidence for which 75w90 gear oil offers the best protection?

As far as the gearbox oil is concerned I do not consider the cost or ease of accessibility as major concerns since maintenance of the gearbox is a priority for me especially as I am just beginning to drive the car.

Amsoil synthetic?
Valvoline synthetic?
Mobil 1 synthetic?

I'm using the Valvoline VR1 synthetic 10w30 for the motor as I've heard it offers superb protection for the motor.

[racerdad2]

Valvoline synthetic gear oil has an excellent reputation per another thread.

[dsmithwc04]

Valvoline synthetic gear oil has an excellent reputation per another thread.

Which thread? Everything I found was pre 2008 and not sure how the Valvoline formula has changed since then. I know the "Not Street Legal" sauce is either not available or very hard to come by...

[DanW]

Which thread? Everything I found was pre 2008 and not sure how the Valvoline formula has changed since then. I know the "Not Street Legal" sauce is either not available or very hard to come by...

"Not street legal" referred to motor oil only. The gear oil is widely available and reasonable cost.

Regards,
Dan

[racerdad2]

Search for thread... "fluid change, what weight oil"

I'd post the link if I knew how on my phone ? Lots of good info & insights.

[dsmithwc04]

"Not street legal" referred to motor oil only. The gear oil is widely available and reasonable cost.

Regards,
Dan

Lol, good catch. I thought it just meant extra zddp and wasn't product specific for valvoline. Guess not.

[tonychilton]

Has anybody got hard evidence for which 75w90 gear oil offers the best protection?

As far as the gearbox oil is concerned I do not consider the cost or ease of accessibility as major concerns since maintenance of the gearbox is a priority for me especially as I am just beginning to drive the car.

I run an old Hewland type 8 box with a motor much too big for it in hillclimbs. I have had trouble in the past and now none since using Swepco 203 Moly Gear Lube at Niel Porter's suggestion.

[dsmithwc04]

I run an old Hewland type 8 box with a motor much too big for it in hillclimbs. I have had trouble in the past and now none since using Swepco 203 Moly Gear Lube at Niel Porter's suggestion.

I looked up their "technical" sheets. Apparently everything is proprietary information and can't be released. I called them up and got no further than the pdf which shows very basic information and tons of marketing. They appear to have the type of lubricants I prefer to use (mix the best with less concern on costs and more concern on quality) but without real technical specs who knows whats in it? On the fence with the swepco 203 but not sold on the engine oil and will probably just go with VR1 synthetic unless there is a better oil out there.

[dsmithwc04]

I had a blast at my first race at Gingerman last weekend and just finally got around to inspecting the gear box.

I see some pitting occurring on the edges of some of the teeth on the second gear. Not sure if it is something to worry about or not and I don't have any recollection of the pitting being there on my first inspection when I bought the car. I don't remember even downshifting into second gear very much at Gingerman so it is surprising that it was the only gear I see with any form of wear. The dog rings all look about the same so no cause for concern there either at the moment.

What do you guys thing about the condition of second gear?

[dsmithwc04]

Well, apparently there is no tolerance for pitting on the teeth so I have to get a new 2nd gear set.

[SCOTTY81]

Dan , are you sure the gears are a matched set.Are they pitted on all the teeth , or just a couple
-s-

[dsmithwc04]

Dan , are you sure the gears are a matched set.Are they pitted on all the teeth , or just a couple
-s-

They are pitted on only a couple teeth and I have no idea if they are a matched set as they came with the car. Steve @ One Formula is sending me a new 2nd gear set.

[Dog Licked Racing]

OK while I am still on the steep part of the FE/ESR learning curve I have learned a few things from Kevin at Comprent. We had a ESR unable to race at VIR a few weeks back due to gearbox issues. This was sad as that would have made three ESR in the field , and it's been awhile since we have seen so many together.

This racer who also owns a FE learned that just putting new gears in to a used gearbox sometime cause issues this the shimming of the shift drum assy. Even Kevin was not able to fix it at the track.

[dsmithwc04]

OK while I am still on the steep part of the FE/ESR learning curve I have learned a few things from Kevin at Comprent. We had a ESR unable to race at VIR a few weeks back due to gearbox issues. This was sad as that would have made three ESR in the field , and it's been awhile since we have seen so many together.

This racer who also owns a FE learned that just putting new gears in to a used gearbox sometime cause issues this the shimming of the shift drum assy. Even Kevin was not able to fix it at the track.

Can you explain this to me further? I was not aware that simply replacing a gear set can cause shimming issues. Do I need to get the gearbox jigged? How do I know if there is an issue? I figure I can measure the width of the gears being removed and the new ones and if they are the same then I'm fine correct?

[jcorsico]

Can you explain this to me further? I was not aware that simply replacing a gear set can cause shimming issues. Do I need to get the gearbox jigged? How do I know if there is an issue? I figure I can measure the width of the gears being removed and the new ones and if they are the same then I'm fine correct?

Replacing a gear set can only cause shimming issues if the new gears on not the same width as the old gears. If the near gears are the same width, then there should not be a shimming adjustment.

I have no idea why one set of gears would be a different width than the others (I've never seen it myself), but I've heard stories of slight manufacturing differences between the different gear suppliers.

If you really want to calm your nerves, just bite the bullet and buy the shift fork alignment jig (I did so, and it was worth the money).

With the jig, it's really easy to see how the gearbox works and if everything is aligned properly. You can hook up a drill to the back of the jig and spin the gears, and shift them as if the car was driving down the road. Great learning tool. Just be careful to not get your fingers caught in the gears as they spin around!

Jon

[Dog Licked Racing]

My understanding for Kevin (and he's the importer of these cars so I think it's prudent to listen to him) is that there are new gears from old stock and then there are new gears from a new source. Mixing to two can lead to issues like Keith had at VIR.

I suggest you call Kevin at Comprent, as I am sure he will explain it in detail.

[WRD]

Changing gear sets should in no way affect the shimming of the barrel, if this is required something else major has gone on.

What we have seen a lot of before, and experienced recently, is the main pinion bearing nut coming loose. this moves the hubs rearwards slightly causing shifting issues as the barrel is no longer centered on the hubs.

There is a fix for this, we have been doing it for years, it is to remove the threads from the main pinion bearing nut turning it into a spacer, However, somewhere along the line someone has come to the conclusion that this is some searing performance advantage and it has practically been banned. I'll repeat it here for the sake of it, Turning the threads out of this nut is NOT a performance advantage, It will however completely CURE the nut ever coming loose and fix the problem mentioned above, it also negates the need to carry an expensive tool around to tighten the big nut every weekend.

I'll sell my jig cheap if someone wants it, we have a much better and quicker way to set the barrel.

[dsmithwc04]

Changing gear sets should in no way affect the shimming of the barrel, if this is required something else major has gone on.

What we have seen a lot of before, and experienced recently, is the main pinion bearing nut coming loose. this moves the hubs rearwards slightly causing shifting issues as the barrel is no longer centered on the hubs.

There is a fix for this, we have been doing it for years, it is to remove the threads from the main pinion bearing nut turning it into a spacer, However, somewhere along the line someone has come to the conclusion that this is some searing performance advantage and it has practically been banned. I'll repeat it here for the sake of it, Turning the threads out of this nut is NOT a performance advantage, It will however completely CURE the nut ever coming loose and fix the problem mentioned above, it also negates the need to carry an expensive tool around to tighten the big nut every weekend.

I'll sell my jig cheap if someone wants it, we have a much better and quicker way to set the barrel.

By jig are you referring to tool that helps tighten the big nut or the jig that sets spacing? I could be interested in either so feel free to call me at 317 four96 48nine3. Pardon the anti-spam form of writing the phone number.

[jcorsico]

Changing gear sets should in no way affect the shimming of the barrel, if this is required something else major has gone on.

What we have seen a lot of before, and experienced recently, is the main pinion bearing nut coming loose. this moves the hubs rearwards slightly causing shifting issues as the barrel is no longer centered on the hubs.

There is a fix for this, we have been doing it for years, it is to remove the threads from the main pinion bearing nut turning it into a spacer, However, somewhere along the line someone has come to the conclusion that this is some searing performance advantage and it has practically been banned. I'll repeat it here for the sake of it, Turning the threads out of this nut is NOT a performance advantage, It will however completely CURE the nut ever coming loose and fix the problem mentioned above, it also negates the need to carry an expensive tool around to tighten the big nut every weekend.

I'll sell my jig cheap if someone wants it, we have a much better and quicker way to set the barrel.

I removed the threads from my pinion nut on Lee's recommendation. It was insane - reduced drag in the gearbox increased my top speed on most straights by 5-6 mph!

It also had the side effect of curing the annoying issue of the pinion nut coming loose.

[jcorsico]

If you are curious, here is a picture of the jig with a gear stack in it.

[dsmithwc04]

I removed the threads from my pinion nut on Lee's recommendation. It was insane - reduced drag in the gearbox increased my top speed on most straights by 5-6 mph!

It also had the side effect of curing the annoying issue of the pinion nut coming loose.

If I'm not mistaken, I think I remember Keven at Comprent telling me to not remove the threads from the big nut. Something about the layshaft nuts not being designed to be able to hold the gear stack together and will cause failure.

[WRD]

No other box out there has the pinion nut, an mk9 is essentially the same stack and doesnt utilise the nut, they work just fine!! I've been doing it for years and never had an issue.

The jig pictured above is the one I will sell, I'll call you shortly Dan, been one of thise mornings!!

[Jeff Read]

Lee, How much are those jigs?

[dsmithwc04]

Very expensive new. Luckily he gave me a steal of a deal!

[Evl]

No other box out there has the pinion nut, an mk9 is essentially the same stack and doesnt utilise the nut, they work just fine!! I've been doing it for years and never had an issue.

Can you show me where in the rule book this is a legal modification?

[riderxracer]

7.b.2.

[KAMcDonald]

ambiguous....

and right above it, 7.b.1, no internal or external modification (including lightening) other than normal racing repair.

shave off the threads = lightening.... not by much, but hey, we are not SM drivers....

[riderxracer]

I think that is referring to the case. The rule I quoted you would be applicable to the internals. You are certainly entitled to interpret any way that you like

[Evl]

Thanks. Yes, it seems that 7.b.1 refers to the case. No minimum weight given for the nut, so I guess you can go to town on it based on 7.b.2.

[riderxracer]

Speaking of ambiguous, how about the one on the gurney flaps. The way I read it u can not just add a piece of angle from the hardware store. It would have to be turned at an angle of less than 90 d. I have been out for a while repairing the car, this appears to be a new rule and not particularly well written.

[Blake Thompson]

ambiguous....
but hey, we are not SM drivers....

Hey!