Hi Dave, are you running road race or autocross?Originally Posted by DaveW
Hi Dave, are you running road race or autocross?
Road Racing, but the pressure values should still be valid. The greatest amount of wear occurs at cold startup except, of course, in the case of oil starvation or extremely low pressures that will not support the dynamic film. That is why I gave the pressures I saw as reference.
As long as you maintain 30 psi at speed, and 5-10 psi at idle with a good RACING oil, you should have no lubrication related problems.
Dave Weitzenhof
I was thinking that the sustained high rpm of the road racing engine would need more clearance to provide for expansion and might also give lower op when the engine is very hot.
That may very well be true, but all I was trying to point out is that the thinnest oil that provides acceptable pressure (acceptable being defined as no oil-related failures) will perform the best in terms of startup lubrication and HP output.
Dave Weitzenhof
Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not trying to argue, just feeling my way. Some of you guys have been immersed in FF for decades and I am still learning!
Gentlemen, I am bringing this thread back from the dead.
I am now the owner of this car. Yesterday was the third autocross we have run the in this year.
The first driver made seven runs in the car. The second driver made four. At the start line, the car was showing the normal oil pressure. Fifty seconds later, at the end of the run, the oil pressure was zero. The water temps were about 200 to 220 all day. I did check the oil level before the first run of the day and added about a third of a quart. I could have misread the level.
The engine burns oil badly. After idling for a while, it resembles a mosquito fogger. It does clean up a lot higher rpms. There is also a leak in the system we have yet to find.
The car is currently a Solo Performance in St. Louis. Dave Whitworth, the owner of Solo Performance, has extensive experience with dry sumped Ford V8's. I will be sending him the link to this thread. I will also have him pull the oil filter to look for bearing material and send an oil sample for analysis.
This really sucks since I promised a ride in the car to a driver from Oregon at the Solo Springnationals in Lincoln, NE in two weeks time.
If there is metal in the oil, I will be contacting Mr. Averill about a rebuild.
Last edited by Lynn; 05.11.15 at 10:03 AM.
I did some quick testing this AM for Lynn, there is no oil flowing out of the gauge port and I think I bled the intake side sufficiently that it should draw (the hose routing is a little henky with a loop up about to the halfway height of the tank).
I am doing some research on this myself, but is there an easy way to see if the pump itself is turning? I assume it drives off the cam? Is there something that can fail that would cause it to stop turning?
EDIT: I see with some google searching that it is gear driven off the pan - I will see if I can get the pump off to check it and the gear - not sure if there is enough clearance between the pump and frame.
Thanks,
DaveW
Last edited by 47CP; 05.11.15 at 1:25 PM.
there have been a lot of discussions on this particular engine and it's oiling system. Given that the PO had rerouted a large amount of the oil lines, would it be possible to see some clear photos of the routing and other lines as they are currently mounted? That may help in troubleshooting what may be wrong.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
See attached photos. I can't say that I am very comfortably with some of the hose types, but they seem structurally sound for now.
Is losing the prime something that happens with these pumps? I have had a lot of dry sump issues, but that is not one of them (of course most of the cars have the tank higher than the pump (by a lot) and also pretty remote.
DaveW
It looks like the pressure line is tapped into the return from filter port. is there an oil filter? where does the line from the 5:00 oclock postion go to? that should be supply to filter. No?
I should have taken a photo from farther back, I will do that in the AM when back at the shop.
IIRC, the line at about 2 o'clock goes to the filter. I don't remember where the lower one goes.
DaveW
I would seriously consider reading through this whole thread!!! And the classified! And then decide what you should do...
It might save you some money... ymmv.
the first photo has the pressure 'supply' line looping up over the pump. Not exactly as I would do it (should have the least amount of restriction/resistance as possible) but should hold a 'prime' as long as the oil level in the tank is higher than the 'loop' and the pump has decent tolerances.
The 5 o'clock line I believe runs to the far side of the block to the block oil galley (per an earlier post). I would check and make SURE that the fitting does go to the correct galley AND that it doesn't bottom/restrict the oil feed (the threaded fitting is very close to a cross feed line there).
I don't see the oil filter (there were many discussions about the flow direction) or the oil tank. I would like to see the tank design, it may shed some light on the issues. If not big enough, or too low, the pressure pickup could suffer. I would also plumb the filter in the pressure line, not the scavenge return, if that is how it is currently done.
I also see a lot of oil around the pump/lines. Do you know where that is coming from? If it is coming from a scavenge line it may not return the oil quick enough (and starve the engine), if from the pressure 'supply' line it could allow the prime to be lost.
there is also a possibility the pressure supply line is collapsing, given the routing and I am not familiar with the type of hose. Looks like a high pressure hose, which may not translate into a 'high suction' hose.
Also, check that starter wire. The crimp connector looks like it could fail at some point.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
I will get some better photos in the AM.
I have similar concerns over the supply line routing and the hose itself, however I was *guessing* that even if the hose was collapsing, it would not do so at idle (or crank) when everything was cold. However, if it is the wrong hose, it very well could have de laminated inside or broken up and clogged something.
Thanks for all the advice and help! Miek B seemed to miss the point that this isn't even my car, I am just trying to help out Lynn with the diagnosis - this type of thing is not something my shop specializes in so I don't want to waste a lot of time/Lynn's money with a learning curve or fixing things on a broken motor.
DaveW
Sorry, if I offended you...Maybe you can send this link to the owner?
I am not offended and I don't want to start an internet issue on my 3rd post on a forum, but I am laughing at the guy who told me to read the thread, who very obviously hasn't read the thread (scroll up the first post from today)
I am not sure of your overall point - if it is that the engine might be in trouble because of being run without oil pressure, you are correct, hence my concern at wasting a lot of Lynn's money.
If your point is that the oil system plumbing and components might be problematic, well I agree there too and that was why I was asking for advice and suggestions here.
Anyway, I will be spending some real time in the AM on this project and will post better photos and report any findings.
DaveW
Never mind.... Lynn! Good luck and have fun!
Read post #79 in this thread.
HTH
Last edited by BURKY; 05.11.15 at 10:07 PM.
The more I think about this and remember the whole oil filter direction discussion, and now the possibility the filter is in the scavenge return line, the possibility exists that the filter lines may be on backwards and the supply tank is getting drained before the scavenge can pump it past the antidrain valve in the filter. The crankcase would fill up and the engine would smoke/leak badly. It would also show oil pressure right up until there was no more oil to pump.
Please show the rest of the system when you get a chace.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
OK, I think I figured it out this morning.
First, I verified that the pump in plumbed correctly per this drawing https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/im...67-01-SIDE.JPG
The only thing conflicted with this info is that the pressure side exiting the oil filter feeds the far side of the engine into the galley instead of back through the pump fitting (labeled oil return to block from filter) The mechanical gauge is plumbed to this fitting. That should not be an issue, I don't think. Pressure is pressure and either fitting appears to be plenty large for the volume needed?
There is a petcock on the oil filter adapter, so I opened that and cranked the engine and it was dribbling oil out of it, so I decided to fire it up and when I did so, oil pressure came right up to the normal levels. The engine is quiet with no knocking, oil pressure stayed fine when the engine warmed up and rises normally when the engine is revved.
There appears to be a massive valve cover leak, which I think is the source of most of the oil in the belly pan. There were also some loose fittings and adapters in other places.
My theory is that the suction hose routing, combined with low oil level, air locked (or lost prime) the pump causing the loss of pressure. I am also concerned over the hoses themselves possibly not having the proper vacuum rating - I just can't determine the brand on them and they might be fine, but we just don't know at this time.
We are going to replumb and reroute everything, using stainless for the suction line and socketless for the rest, fix the oil leak(s) and this should make the system trouble free for Lynn for a long time
There are some more global photos attached where you can see the current routing. There is also a video of the engine running. http://youtu.be/kTbp2_WsV2w
The only thing I can't verify is that the oil filter adapter has the correct in and out (doesn't seem to be marked) but if it is working, it must be right.I will re-re-read this thread to get the info again on that.
Thanks for all the help everyone and I might still have questions for the masses. I hope posting all this info helps future searchers here...
DaveW
The oil filter "in" goes to the side that feeds the "outside" of the filter, while the "out" comes from the center threaded boss. You should be able to pull the filter off and see where each port goes.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
How much oil does the tank hold? It looks fairly small, but it could be the pictures.
The oil entry on the left side of the block is not very deep and if the threaded fitting is too long it will block the oil galley and kill the bearings. I would check that, or better yet reroute the feed back to the pump - just to eliminate another variable.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
The Reynard assembly and setup manual says the system holds 5 liters.
oil pump plumbing
From the original Cosworth instructions it is very simple:
-12 line from scavenge port to oil cooler or tank
-12 line from tank to pressure pickup in pump
-10 line from pressure out to filter
-10 line from filter to motor
Keep lines low, short, smooth radius.
That's all there is to it.
It has been suggested in a PM that the scavenge side of the pump may not be fully functional.
Jay Ivey toasted a motor twice until he discovered a collapsed suction hose from the pan to the scavenge inlet.
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
I only read the 4th reel of this movie............ saying that , I would suggest for an FF, use #8 hose for the pressure side and #10 hose for the scavenge side, and use push-lock hose with Oetteker clamps on the pressure side fittings. Get rid of the brass and the 90* fittings and use sweep fittings (or straight as needed) as this will clean up and make it easier to plumb the pump. Use Parker or Aeroquip push on hose and AN fittings, as that black hose in use may be collapsing or you might have a flapper in one of the lines.
If (and it should), the oil level should be at the tank baffle with the engine running. It sounds like there is not good venting from the motor to the tank and then to the puke can.
Recheck the oil flow chart (above). And also check the integrity of the suction hose and the 2 clamps from oil pan to pump inlet. You might remove the oil pan plug and see if there is any trash in the screen. Good luck!!
This is exactly the plan - except pulling the pan (for now)
Thanks all for the tips and help,
\
DaveW
don't think he meant pulling the pan (though it would be a good idea if possible), I saw pan PLUG - some have a magnet on them and should be easy enough to pull.
Another item that might be easy enough to pull is the pan outlet fitting - assuming it is removable. These usually have a screen in them to collect the bigger trash prior to the pump.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
Drain plug w/ screen .......catches the big chunks in the oil pan on the suction side.
Most steel Kent/Ford pans have his on drivers left middle of the pan.
Checking the vacuum hose to the pump, you might be able to slide the short hose up or down for removal. If the hose is too long you can trim it or poke around the hose where the end pipes end to see if the hose is mushy. You can slit the hose for getting off and slide a new hose that will be shorter. Usually there is not a problem in the seal on the suction tube to the pump inlet....(hopefully)... as it might be a problem getting the tube out to replace the seals.....If the tube is wobbly in the pump the seals are not doing much...but probably not the tube seals to pump.
I got everything plumbed correctly. -10 stainless on the suction hose, -8 push lock with clamps on pressure side. Easy bends, lines low, no brass. Photos attached.
It primed up in a few seconds of cranking with no plugs, then I reconnected the ignition and it fired right up and held oil pressure correctly - I warmed it all the way up to 160 degrees oil temp.
Two questions - the system was completely dry when I took everything out (took the tank out to put AN fittings) - but there is no way in hell I am squeezing 5 liters/5.2 quarts back in this thing. What am I missing here?
2) Possibly related to above - there is positive pressure (using the highly accurate thumb test) coming out of the valve cover vent at idle. It stops when you rev it up. I am more used to my V8 cars with the oversize 2-3-4 scavenge stage pumps and having no pressure or even a vacuum - how much blow by is normal on one of these motors?
Thanks again for all the help!
DaveW
Last edited by 47CP; 05.18.15 at 6:04 PM. Reason: Photos
stainless braided line
Glad you now get the desired oil pressure.
You might consider either insulating/covering/tying off or replacing the braided stainless line anywhere it touches anything like the chassis tubes or other components. The stainless braid behaves like a hacksaw on anything it touches with any vibration. The broken bits of wire also behave like a porcupine on you when you attempt to reach in and do any work.
YMMV.
Regards,
Dan
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
Yes, good suggestion - I will insulate it where it touches the frame.
DaveW
good news on the pressure. It looks like you've cleaned up the hose routing a lot, nice work. I see you went with the pressure return to the 5th port as well. (remember that front oil galley plug length! not too long!) Where did you tap into for the pressure gauge?
Can the -10 from the oil tank be routed outboard of the frame tube like the filter line? That could make it easier to run and not touch the tube. Also, did you ever determine if the filter flowed the correct direction? (I know that was a question a while back)
I don't know much about this particular model, but it is possible that the tank is not the original and made smaller for some reason. I would like to think that 5 quarts is about the minimum an FF should run (others can chime in here if they want). It is entirely possible that after 50 seconds of full rpm runs that a smaller amount of oil could be pumped out of the tank and not fully replenished. I guess I would fill the tank up to near the return line (or top baffle if there is one) and use a large overflow tank on the first outing. Let the engine puke out what it doesn't want and then note how much is left in the system.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
I tapped into that left side galley plug for the pressure gauge. The threads on the adapter I used were shorter than the ones I removed, so I think/hope it is OK.
The -10 from the tank has to hop over the shift linkage which is down almost right next to the outlet, so that is why I ran it there - typical of any plumbing project, I really needed a 62.345622 degree fitting with a twist, but had to choose between 90 and 45.
There is so little room for hose routing on these cars.
Good suggestion on the oil level. The tank may not be original.
DaveW
The tank in the pic looks like the original. I think that system held 4+ from a complete drain when I had it but it had an oil cooler. Other threads mention the oil cooler is important as a de-aireator, not so much for cooling
I like to use Earls SwivelSeal, and I just got a 60deg -10 from them:The -10 from the tank has to hop over the shift linkage which is down almost right next to the outlet, so that is why I ran it there - typical of any plumbing project, I really needed a 62.345622 degree fitting with a twist, but had to choose between 90 and 45.
http://www.anplumbing.com/Hose+Ends/Swivel-Seal-16.html
So is all ok ? Or.........
in post #150 above you say.........
""""Two questions - the system was completely dry when I took everything out (took the tank out to put AN fittings) - but there is no way in hell I am squeezing 5 liters/5.2 quarts back in this thing. What am I missing here?""""
By the pictures it looks as tho the oil tank is very slim and maybe long........(comparing the top of the tank with the diameter of the water cap which probably is 2.5") ....the oil tank looks about 3 or 3.5" diameter . You might want to measure the tank for volume....take a look at Peterson tank or drysump.com for volume vs. capacity. You want at least 4 working quarts in the tank (engine running) and another 1 to 1.5 quarts inside the motor oil galleys and a small cooler....so if you drain the cooler, new filter and drain the pan you might put 5 to 6 quarts in total if you have the right tank. The final oil level with engine running, oil should be to the tank baffle if the tank has one....or about 4 inches down from the cap.
I see the tangential hose to the return of the tank BUT I don't see the vent can hose or a vent can ?????.
Jerry, the baffle in the oil tank is 12 inches below the top of the oil cap fitting. The Reynard factory manual says the oil level should be 11 to 12 inches below the top of the oil cap fitting. The manual says the capacity is 5 liters. The car does not have an oil cooler. Maybe it had a cooler in the past. There is a vent hose from the tank to a catch can mounted over the transaxle.
So now 47CP has the right tank dimensions to follow up on courtesy of Lynn.
So now 47CP has the right tank dimensions to follow up on courtesy of Lynn.
It's my car.And he has the manual.
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