View Poll Results: What tire do you want to see in SCCA FF Majors competition?

Voters
186. You may not vote on this poll
  • Toyo 888 (Currently available)

    89 47.85%
  • Hoosier R60 6" (currently available size)

    41 22.04%
  • Hoosier R60 7" (Does not exist currently, may change price)

    7 3.76%
  • Hoosier F1600 Spec Radial (avail in 2015)

    28 15.05%
  • Other (Tire yet to be designed)

    7 3.76%
  • No Spec Tire Rule - Keep as is.

    14 7.53%
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  1. #281
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    Default "New Guy" Perspective

    I have just read every single post of the past 7 pages of this thread and felt compelled to offer the perspective of somebody new to FF. I am just starting my second year running in the AZ ProAutosports FF and can honestly say it is the most fun I have had in my entire life. I look forward to nothing more than a race weekend.

    Background: I am in my 30's, love cars, but have no extensive race history. I have been blessed to make a decent enough living that I can afford to do something as financially stupid as amateur racing. I have not even a small percentage of the technical knowledge or experience that those in this thread possess. However, if I use my fingers and toes, I can do math pretty well. Here is an example of a typical conversation with family or friend when they ask about my racing:
    Person: "Open wheeled race car? I bet that costs a TON!"
    me: You can get into a car for less than 20 grand
    Person: "Yeah, but what about those other costs like engine and tires"
    me: People have been getting over 80 hours out of their engine between rebuilds. A set of tires mounted and balanced is under $800 and most get a full season (10 races of 2 days each, with four 20 minute sessions each day) out of a set.

    As previously stated, the AZ group is pushing 20 cars each event. In my naive view, I figured there were just groups in every state running all the time. After getting my feet wet, I had visions of packing a trailer up and hitting as many events as possible around the southwest.
    One of my first questions was "where else can I go race?".
    The answer hit pretty hard: "um, nowhere in the southwest with the tires we run on."

    I can honestly say there is no way I would be running in FF if the tire situation was that much different from what is done here in AZ. As a percentage of the total costs, it just cannot be justified. The cost of your car itself can be largely recaptured (baring crashes etc.), heck, even the cost of an Ivey rebuild can retain some residual. The tires are total consumables and represent the largest percentage of operational costs. Thousand dollar set of tires every race weekend on tires has (and will continue to) keep people out.

    I am pretty dumb, so I just cannot seem to wrap my little brain around the fact that this outrageously fun form of racing that was meant to be an entry level class is dying on the vine in many locals. I don't pretend to know the political intricacies of the SCCA nor the technical merits of what is "real racing". I DO know that even in the short time I have been in FF in AZ, our group has grown to 20 car run groups that are for the most part on a level playing field. Are you guys that are hell bent on "real racing means slicks" having that much more fun in 5 people run groups spending thousands on tires? Are you willing to insist on doing so at the detriment of the class as a whole?

    Plenty of opinions on tires that can be debated by those smarter than I, but the glaring fact is that the only heavy growth areas for FF are where the DOT tires are being run.

    PS: It is also worth adding that the AZ group would not be what it is without the hard work and dedication of Jens and Lisa Plougmann.

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  3. #282
    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    Default

    Thx for your expressing your view point so well. I share it, completely.
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

  4. #283
    Contributing Member TimH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowMonkey View Post
    PS: It is also worth adding that the AZ group would not be what it is without the hard work and dedication of Jens and Lisa Plougmann.
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  6. #284
    Fallen Friend Bud Pug's Avatar
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    Default American Racer Tires

    I do not understand DOT tires when the ARS 133 tires are so well proven. Slick racing tires look so proper. The FRCCA has been on them since 1992 and well proven to be reliable without any "Hot Laps" when new, as a matter of fact they get slighly quicker as they get used. The fields number is around 18-24 at each event and we hold at least 12 events a season. If you ask about our lap times against the few F/F's on Hoosiers, we admitt to being slower, but we have close and affordable compettion and that is what counts along with larger fields.

  7. #285
    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    Now, we're talkin' ! Race tires that qet faster with use ! Seriously, that's good tire tech.
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

  8. #286
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    SlowMonkey, you can run with SVRA West and The Series on the Toyo's.
    Roland Johnson
    San Diego, Ca

  9. #287
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    The last time I looked "The Series" required the use of the American Racer Ar133, however there are no links to rules on their webpage.

    Tom Duncan

  10. #288
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    Their website is not up to date at the moment. I talked to Richard (the Series owner) to make sure. Come on over to Spring Mountain, or Willow Springs and race. I think that Bob Hatle was going to get the word to Jens.
    Roland Johnson
    San Diego, Ca

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  12. #289
    Contributing Member marshall9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland V. Johnson View Post
    Their website is not up to date at the moment. I talked to Richard (the Series owner) to make sure. Come on over to Spring Mountain, or Willow Springs and race. I think that Bob Hatle was going to get the word to Jens.
    I can't make Spring Mountain, but when is Willow Springs? I would like to do a race or two with SVRA , as I plan on COTA with them in November, and would like to have a feel of how they do things.....I read that SVRA requires Dunlop Vintage tires for CF, but are using some Avon right now due to Dunlop availability issues....I know Toyos are allowed, but are points awarded for position on them? There is interest within some our group regarding this. Who do I contact for clarification?


    Group 2 http://www.svra.com/wp-content/uploa...ations_115.pdf

  13. #290
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    Willow is Mar 28 - 29. There is always an open test day (by the track) on the Friday before. On the West coast we haven't adopted all of the SVRA East rules.
    Roland Johnson
    San Diego, Ca

  14. #291
    Senior Member Brian C in Az's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland V. Johnson View Post
    Come on over to Spring Mountain, or Willow Springs and race. I think that Bob Hatle was going to get the word to Jens.
    When is the Spring Mountain race?

  15. #292
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    Spring Mountain Feb 13 - 15
    Roland Johnson
    San Diego, Ca

  16. #293
    Contributing Member TimH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland V. Johnson View Post
    Spring Mountain Feb 13 - 15
    Jens has talked about taking a big trailer up, but I doubt I can make it this time. It sure looks like quite a facility to put even INDE to shame.

    Just a matter of time before we come visit, though.
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  17. #294
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    Default February Fastrack

    To highlight: Based on member input, the CRB recommends pursuing a spec/control tire for Formula F through the Club Racing Department for the 2016 racing season and beyond.

    So it looks like all our letters made somewhat of an impression. Any rumors on which direction, if any, the Club Racing Dept will pursue?


    CLUB RACING BOARD MINUTES | January 6, 2015
    The Club Racing Board met by teleconference on January 6, 2015. Participating were Jim Wheeler, Chairman; Chris Albin, Peter
    Keane, David Arken, John LaRue, and Pam Richardson, secretary. Also participating were: Todd Butler and Bruce Lindstrand,
    BoD liaisons; Eric Prill, Chief Operations Officer, John Bauer, Technical Manager, Club Racing; and Chris Blum, Technical
    Assistant, Club Racing. The following decisions were made:
    Member Advisory
    FF
    1. #16038 (Steve Bamford) Spec Tire in FF
    Thank you for your letter. Based on member input, the CRB recommends pursuing a spec/control tire for Formula F through
    the Club Racing Department for the 2016 racing season and beyond.
    The CRB thanks the following authors for their input on a spec tire: 16035 Hazelton, 16036 Cooper, 16038 Bamford, 16039
    Lee, 16040 Herbst, 16043 Pyanowski, 16044 Shippert, 16047 Zemke, 16048 LaPointe, 16049 Fritz, 16051 Jeffords, 16054
    Lillquist, 16055 Bendix, 16056 Roux, 16059 Generotti, 16060 Guzman, 16065 Velkoff, 16079 Mackey, 16081 Lockwood,
    16083 Wright, 16085 Valet, 16086 DiGiovanni, 16088 Earley, 16090 Foster, 16098 Walker, 16099 Worgin, 16107 Lenhart,
    16123 Baker, 16133 Grooms, 16134 Parker, 16161 Erlandson, 16166 Webb, 16167 Grenier, 16168 Wise, 16169 Hendrickson,
    16191 Generotti, 16195 Zurlinden and 16200 Rice.

  18. #295
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    Default

    Funny as I was wondering what was happening behind the scenes as well. Hopefully someone on the inside chimes in.
    Last edited by Steve Bamford; 02.18.15 at 7:57 PM.
    Steve Bamford

  19. #296
    Senior Member Westroc's Avatar
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    Default tires

    Quite a few people like myself have sat quiety and I must say I currently do not have a FF track ready although I do have one. Honestly I think you need your head read if you do not go to a spec tire. Toyo would be my overwhelming choice. The Canadian series has had a spec tire-treaded for YEARS now. Honestly if some of you guys ran up there you would have you a..s handed to you. Look at the Rand series and when the FF treaded guys show they are at the front. It improves racecraft and several shops here make a decent living partly because of the car counts. Outspoken maybe but how many guys running FF in Great Lakes compared to years ago. A pittance. I remember qualifying at M/0 1.1sec. off pole at a National and gridded 45th which is by the gas pumps for God's sake. I had a great race weekend otherwise why would I remember it now. No '25's and '35's and rain tires in the trailer just to qualify decent. My two cents. No I have had personal conversations and I am way from the only one with this thinking. Maybe just braver. No I did not vote as currently I do not have a car ready to race so to some degree I have no right to do so. Maybe I should have stayed silent but I find it so frustrating.
    JIM (2006 GLC CFC Champion)

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  21. #297
    Contributing Member DanW's Avatar
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    Aside from an utter lack of talent, the silly tire bills have kept me from even considering moving up from CF. So I wrote a letter supporting a spec tire rule.
    “Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan

  22. #298
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    The discussions on this topic, here and elsewhere, seem to combine the Club Ford category of formula ford with the Majors category of Formula F, and then even adds non-SCCA FF racing into the mix. This is interesting, but would be unfortunate if it led to a national mandate either by rule (unlikely), or by discouraging competing tire manufacturers (more likely). If SCCA decides to mandate a spec tire for Majors (National/Run-offs) competition, they should certainly not try to extend it to include CF, which is a Regional class controlled by the various Regions or Divisions for local competition and local championships. Where CF and Vintage exists, eligibility rules, including tires, have been worked out by the consensus of those involved, and it should stay that way. If your CF or Vintage group, SCCA or other, wants to settle on highly restricted lawn tractor tires, or allow open competition gum-ball tires, that’s up to your group. The impact of that choice can be much more easily adjusted for in rules modification by the local group to fit their needs than could an over-arching national (“nanny state”) mandate.

  23. #299
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    It's nice to see that the smoke finally appears to be clearing from the back room.
    Matt King
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  24. #300
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    fleetdude, CF will still be operate under their Regional rule sets. I believe DC region may have already added Toyo's to the approved CF tire list ?

  25. #301
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    I know it's a little late but finally got it in Tracking Number: #16464

  26. #302
    Contributing Member marshall9's Avatar
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    Default Video of AZ racing on Toyos

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckUKBjpTny0#t=413


    Thanks for posting this on FB Lyle. Just putting it here for all to see. No promotion or commentary, just for those that want to see some driving and how we roll in our series...

  27. #303
    Senior Member Max Power's Avatar
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    Default Video

    Thanks for sharing the video! I see two problems:
    1) you guys are having too much fun, and
    2) you're not spending enough money!

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  29. #304
    Classifieds Super License Raceworks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt King View Post
    It's nice to see that the smoke finally appears to be clearing from the back room.
    Well, to be fair they have been busy with other things like the Spec Miata fiasco.
    Sam Lockwood
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  30. #305
    Classifieds Super License stonebridge20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshall9 View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckUKBjpTny0#t=413


    Thanks for posting this on FB Lyle. Just putting it here for all to see. No promotion or commentary, just for those that want to see some driving and how we roll in our series...
    That track view brought back some pretty good memories. The last time I saw it was behind the wheel of a March 88C Indy car in 1990.
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  31. #306
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    We ran the new spec Pro Series tires this past weekend at Road Atlanta & for a few laps on a test day prior to that. There was no significant wear that I could feel after 5 or so sessions. Usually after that amount of sessions on the previous R45 type tire the car would be moving all around.

    From what I heard from some other competitors their older cars are not really able to adapt to the changes Hoosier has listed but I am not able to comment on that myself as I do not know what can or can't be done on their cars.

    Sam, what were your thoughts on the tires as I believe you ran them as well.
    Steve Bamford

  32. #307
    Senior Member GAC's Avatar
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    Steve, how would you say the lap times of the new pro series tires compare to the R35s when new?

  33. #308
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GAC View Post
    Steve, how would you say the lap times of the new pro series tires compare to the R35s when new?
    I haven't run the R35's in a few years now. Lap times were close, I thought we would actually be faster however we only had three dry sessions and they were after it has rained the day before so I can't say the track was ideal. There was not a big draft that we usually see at a Pro event so when I take that into consideration I think you will see lap times come down from where they were by at least a second.

    Road Atlanta is an interesting track for lap times as I have seen 28's on a test day, mid 29's for qualifying then mid to low 30's later the same day in a race with lots of drafting.

    I wouldn't hold last weekends numbers as near as low as they will go in a few weeks from now under the right circumstances.

    The one thing I can say is if they were R35's then they wear would have shown up and lap times would have started to drop off.
    Steve Bamford

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  35. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Bamford View Post
    We ran the new spec Pro Series tires this past weekend at Road Atlanta & for a few laps on a test day prior to that.
    What tires were the Exclusive cars on Saturday?
    Crossle 32F, Piper DF5 Honda

  36. #310
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWC54 View Post
    What tires were the Exclusive cars on Saturday?
    The same new radial tires. We turned lap times within a tenth of one another I believe and I was separated from them with track by about 3-4 seconds.
    Steve Bamford

  37. #311
    Contributing Member swiftdrivr's Avatar
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    Any DB-1s running the radial?
    Jim
    Swift DB-1
    Talent usually ends up in front, but fun goes from the front of the grid all the way to the back.

  38. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftdrivr View Post
    Any DB-1s running the radial?
    Not that I am aware of.
    Steve Bamford

  39. #313
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    Default Hoosier radial set up spec

    Hi Steve,

    Any idea what the approximate camber settings are for the new radial? I looked on the Hoosier FF1600 web site but I didn't see anything.

    Thanks,

    John

  40. #314
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgrooms View Post
    Hi Steve,

    Any idea what the approximate camber settings are for the new radial? I looked on the Hoosier FF1600 web site but I didn't see anything.

    Thanks,

    John
    If you speak or email Hoosier they will be able to provide it. I honestly don't know myself but my team would.
    Steve Bamford

  41. #315
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
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    Deleted, as Sam posted the link below. Other comments in #318.
    Last edited by problemchild; 03.24.15 at 12:15 PM.
    Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
    F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
    2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
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  42. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftdrivr View Post
    Any DB-1s running the radial?
    As far as I could tell the cars running Radials were:

    Andrews (Spectrum / Honda)
    Bamford (Mygale / Honda)
    Cooper (Sort of Spectrum / Honda)
    Me (Spectrum / Honda)
    Mack (Mygale / Honda)
    McGregor (Spectrum / Honda)

    Generotti was on Goodyears.

    The rest were on Hoosier bias plys as far as I could tell.

    The weekend was very wet. It rained all day Thursday and the track was still wet on the long session Friday morning. We got dry track for the 15-minute session on Friday afternoon, the 10 minutes on Saturday morning, and the race (and I got clobbered about 3/4 the way through that).

    Depending on the chassis you may not need quite as much camber. My car didn't seem to like as much as the recommended settings and we stood the tires up more for Saturday.

    The only car on the new wets as far as I know was Mack.

    Hopefully things stay dry at the pro race in a couple of weeks & we'll have some better data.
    Sam Lockwood
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  43. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgrooms View Post
    Hi Steve,

    Any idea what the approximate camber settings are for the new radial? I looked on the Hoosier FF1600 web site but I didn't see anything.

    Thanks,

    John
    It's on the F1600 race series site: http://f1600series.com/competitors/9...tire-data.html
    Sam Lockwood
    Raceworks, Inc
    www.lockraceworks.com

  44. #318
    Contributing Member problemchild's Avatar
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    Radial Tire Overview

    Others shared with me, so I will share with others ....

    Teams found they were adding camber and adjusting ride height, but other changes were minimal.

    We are running the same ARB, spring, and shocks and settings as we ran previously. The 3 other teams I talked with are also running the same settings and dealing with the exact same handling challenges as they had previously.

    Steve's fastest laps were on tires in their 6th session. We stopped running them because of rain but will continue with them next time.
    Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
    F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
    2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
    2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.

  45. #319
    Contributing Member Steve Bamford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftdrivr View Post
    Any DB-1s running the radial?
    It would be nice if Hoosier could work with someone who has Swift such as Benson or Robinson if they were willing to try the new radials. Since as the last weekend at Road Atlanta shows there is a significant number of Swifts running in the Club so any spec tire would need to be easily adaptable to these cars as well as the newer cars running.
    Steve Bamford

  46. #320
    Contributing Member Roux's Avatar
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    Default Alternate idea

    What if someone took a well dialed in car on those radials and then did a lap times vs tire camber 'sweep'. Or lateral G's vs camber with lots of averaging. maybe sweep from 3.5 to 2 degrees and back to take some of the other variables out. In 0.5 degree steps. Maybe a test day with a set of new hoosiers and some crowd finding Apexspeed style. My fear is that the difference is small and we are alienating Swift owners for no good reason. What if it is only 0.2 seconds delta per minute which might be less than the delta between a swift and a mygale or spectrum anyway. not sure if I am making sense, but just how sensitive are the cars to the change from say 2 degrees to 3.5??

    Steve

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