Couple questions: ECU protocol, fuel test, pedal adjustment.

[dsmithwc04]

Okay I've got a few more questions after proceeding a little further on the FE.

What protocol does the ECU use? I did a search and found the SBD Motorsport page which describes everything but the protocol that it uses. It did say that the newer ECU they manufacturer (post serial ECU) uses CAN BUS. I am stuck between buying a used RLC system that has connections for CAN BUS (Tx and Rx wires which I'm not exactly sure if the ECU and the RLC would communicate) and a used CDS copilot 2+ that currently has an FC harness on it so I would probably just need to get the FE harness unless I could make a serial connection with the FC harness???

Also, I have a fuel test port adapter from my old SM which screws onto a schreader valve style test port. I jumped the fuel pump relay and the pump ran continuously as expected but barely a couple ounces of fuel would run into the hose attached to the adapter. I have nearly 40 psi of fuel pressure and the fuel pump doesn't sound like its cavitating at all. I plan on getting the fuel test port from Pegasus because I don't care to trust a schreader valve with pressurized fuel behind it in the long run but I don't see how that will affect this issue. BTW, did anybody notice the outlandish shipping price for the fuel test port? $13.xx for a little brass fitting and I live not that far from their shipping warehouse.

Also, I'm attempting to move the pedals more forward before I give the bead seat kit a shot. My pedals had brass couplers extending the master cylinder rods which put the pedals pretty far forward. I removed the couplers and planned on moving the whole pedal assembly more forward but the design of the base to the assembly won't allow any more forward movement. I looked at the thread "how to sit lower in FE if taller than 6' " (I'm sure that thread title isn't verbatim) and the picture he posted of his pedal assembly looks completely different than mine. My assembly has two "tabs" that secure the forward part of the base to the floor and they are touching the frame member between the pedals and master cylinders. My pedals have a good 1.5-2" that they should be able to move forward if it were not for the design of the base. I guess I could cut the tabs back and drill new holes for the allen head screws leading into the floor but I'm going to ask for advice prior to changing anything on the pedal assembly. I'll get a picture shortly.

[dsmithwc04]

[dsmithwc04]

Also, I heard somebody mention that you can turn the pedals around to get more room. I don't understand how that can happen. Are they talking about turning the brake pedal around so that it leans towards the clutch instead of the throttle? Since I will be left foot braking I would prefer the brake pedal to be closer to the clutch but I'm not sure the design of my brake pedal will allow this?

[David Ferguson]

Okay I've got a few more questions after proceeding a little further on the FE.

What protocol does the ECU use? I did a search and found the SBD Motorsport page which describes everything but the protocol that it uses. It did say that the newer ECU they manufacturer (post serial ECU) uses CAN BUS. I am stuck between buying a used RLC system that has connections for CAN BUS (Tx and Rx wires which I'm not exactly sure if the ECU and the RLC would communicate) and a used CDS copilot 2+ that currently has an FC harness on it so I would probably just need to get the FE harness unless I could make a serial connection with the FC harness???

The MBE ECU used in the FSCCA car uses an RS-232 serial protocol (with is different than the CANbus connection). SCCA can program the RS-232 serial baud rate differently depending upon the data system you are using. Normally, the Pi C-Dash and Xport dashes supplied with the cars used one baud rate, and the AiM (and I think the CDS) used a faster data rate. SCCA Enterprises can update your ECU as required.

The CDS with FC/Zetec harness was built for a Pectel ECU and likely will need to be updated for the FSCCA/MBE protocol by CDS -- might as well get the necessary wiring done at the same time.

Good luck with your new toy!

[dsmithwc04]

David, thanks for the reply. I have used several of your products in the past (including the ingenious brake pressure sensor manifold with bleeder valve) and will say your customer service was beyond excellent. /promotional speech

I had talked with CDS on Thursday and was told it would be about $500 for the update of the software and new harness. It came with a new subscription to the track software as well. I was hoping I could get away with splicing from the FC harness and run as is with minimal additional expenses but I thought that might be too good to be true. $500 seams steep for a software flash and serial adapter/harness but perhaps there is more to it than I know?

The price of the CDS system (copilot 2+) is extremely good that the fellow is offering. It comes with the informer and camera but to be honest I'd love to be able to use my gopro with it since the camera with the system has much to be desired as far as resolution. Not sure if that's possible though. Now that I add in the $500 to get it to work with my car the deal isn't quite as great.

[dsmithwc04]

Noticed brake fluid leaking from right front caliper. The fluid drips from the hard line connecting the two sides of the caliper. Weird thing is I can't seam to find where it's leaking from. The hard line is dry, as are connections as well as the bleeder valves being dry. It's leaking right at the middle of the hard line that travels parallel with the ground. Very strange.

[Evl]

From the looks of your pedals, you should be able to unbolt the assembly, drill some new holes further forward and gain a lot of space that way. The thing to be extremely careful about is to make sure that your brake pedal doesn't hit anything solid even when you've lost system pressure. (Don't ask how I learned this ) When you've got the brake pedal how you want it, open one of the bleeder valves on a front wheel, and make sure that you still are getting pressure in the rear... the pedal will move farther forward due to no resistance in the front master and the balance bar pivoting. Repeat the process with a rear bleeder.

[dsmithwc04]

... you should be able to unbolt the assembly, drill some new holes further forward and gain a lot of space that way....

If you look under the master cylinder pushrods you'll see the tabs with allen head bolts attaching pedal base to floor. Can I just cut the tabs shorter and drill new holes for the allen head bolts?

[10rmotor]

David, thanks for the reply. I have used several of your products in the past (including the ingenious brake pressure sensor manifold with bleeder valve) and will say your customer service was beyond excellent. /promotional speech

I had talked with CDS on Thursday and was told it would be about $500 for the update of the software and new harness. It came with a new subscription to the track software as well. I was hoping I could get away with splicing from the FC harness and run as is with minimal additional expenses but I thought that might be too good to be true. $500 seams steep for a software flash and serial adapter/harness but perhaps there is more to it than I know?

The price of the CDS system (copilot 2+) is extremely good that the fellow is offering. It comes with the informer and camera but to be honest I'd love to be able to use my gopro with it since the camera with the system has much to be desired as far as resolution. Not sure if that's possible though. Now that I add in the $500 to get it to work with my car the deal isn't quite as great.

Don't look at the price of the hardware as the determining factor. For the most part, it doesn't matter how you get the data, its what you can do with it that is important. The Trackmaster analysis software is very powerful and allows you to look at lots of data very quickly to highlight ways you can go faster, or problems with the car.

[brownslane]

If you look under the master cylinder pushrods you'll see the tabs with allen head bolts attaching pedal base to floor. Can I just cut the tabs shorter and drill new holes for the allen head bolts?

Please be aware that, by changing the distance from the brake pedal to the master cylinders that you will need to shorten the push rod connections between the pedal and cylinders. If you do not, then you will be changing the effective rate of the pedal pressure as the arc has changed. In extreme situations I have seen a modification that actually changed pedal pressures to falling rate....which is bad....very bad.....

[dsmithwc04]

Please be aware that, by changing the distance from the brake pedal to the master cylinders that you will need to shorten the push rod connections between the pedal and cylinders. If you do not, then you will be changing the effective rate of the pedal pressure as the arc has changed. In extreme situations I have seen a modification that actually changed pedal pressures to falling rate....which is bad....very bad.....

Good point.

Last night I decided against moving the assembly and instead just shortening the push rod connections on the brake MC moving the pedal forward about an inch or so. I left the clutch alone since it's out of the way and I won't be using it much. The brake pedal is now leaning towards the rear of the car at about 100degree angle (probably 115-120 degrees prior to adjustment) if I were to guess so it's just barely more than at a 90 degree angle. There is only about a 1.5" travel on the brake pedal leaving plenty of space behind it before the bulkhead. The steering linkage is what I've got my eye on now as it may interfere with the brake pedals path. I will do what was mentioned earlier and see how far the brake pedal travels with a complete loss of pressure from the front brakes (open bleeder valves on front calipers) and if it is successful I will repeat with the rear. That way I'm sure I have full travel under a worse case scenario.

I also moved the throttle pedal forward about a third of an inch which is all the throttle cable availalbe. Throttle and brake pedals are close to the same distance from the bulkhead which is okay with me since I'm not heel-toeing.

[Fred Michael]

Be careful that when you push the brake pedal that it does not go over center. This is what you want to avoid and is the reason for moving the whole pedal assembly forward.
Make yourself fit but do not change the geometry of the padal setup.

[dsmithwc04]

Be careful that when you push the brake pedal that it does not go over center. This is what you want to avoid and is the reason for moving the whole pedal assembly forward.
Make yourself fit but do not change the geometry of the padal setup.

Once I get it put completely back together I see how far the pedal goes even with a loss of brakes on one axle.

At the moment I'm having issues getting the coupling apart that holds the MC rod to the rod attached to the brake pedal. It's seized so I sprayed some PB Blaster on it and will give it a couple days.

[Fred Michael]

Been there, I feel your pain.

[dsmithwc04]

Been there, I feel your pain.

For the life of me I can't get the coupler removed from the threaded rod that was in the brake pedal assembly. I've tried vice grips holding the threaded rod and trying to twist it out of the end of the coupler but no dice. This is after spraying it with PB Blaster the last two nights with quick squirts...


ECU QUESTION:
I'm going to put a CDS system on the FE so I'm putting the RLC system in the Miata without the help of the factory harness (which I am making myself) thanks to them going out of business.

The RLC data acquisition system I am installing on my Spec Miata uses a 6 pin CAN/POWER plug from the main harness (VCC IN, VCC AUX, CAN HI, CAN LO, GROUND and RESET_IN). They had a harness that would plug into this 6 pin plug and the other end gave you a single power wire that connects to the vehicle battery and it also had an OBDII 16 pin plug. The 2002 Miata OBDII uses the ISO 9141-2 which has the following pins being used (Pin16=12V), (Pin4=chassis ground) (Pin5= Signal ground) (pin7=K-Line)(pin15-L-Line) pin 15-L-line is labeled as optional in the pinout diagram.

VCC AUX is not used in this.

So I figure I connect :
pin16-12V to the VCC IN
pin4-battery ground to the GROUND
pin7-K Line to the CAN HI
pin15-L Line to the CAN LO
I don't know if I use the RESET_IN or what it is used for on the RCL

Does the above sound right?

[dsmithwc04]

Scratch that idea. The RLC can only read CAN BUS data through the OBD2 port. I will just run analog sensors.

[dsmithwc04]

To anybody using the CDS co pilot2+ I'm curious if you got sensor and ecu data from the 12 pin connectors that plugged into th pi c dash display to feed the co pilot2+?

If this is possible then CDS would alter the ssi harness to use these connector s right?

[10rmotor]

The SSI needs to be modified by CDS to record sensor data from an ECU.

[dsmithwc04]

The SSI needs to be modified by CDS to record sensor data from an ECU.

Yes, I've already sent it in for this purpose. I'm curious into how the CDS physically connects to the ECU, specifically, can it connect to the 12 pin connectors right behind the steering the steering wheel. I looked at the pin layout in the Pi Dash manual and one of the connectors is a sensor loom and the other a display loom.

[dsmithwc04]

I got the brake pedal turned around to get it away from the throttle and found that the pivot point is now pushed towards the rear of the car from before making the top of the pedal pushed more towards the driver which is exactly what I do not want. I can move the pedal further forward to give more leg room but I will need to do one of two things for this to happen. Cut down the studs from the master cylinders or add washers/spaces where the master cylinders mount to the chassis. Easiest would be to add a few washers/spacers to push the MCs forward by about 1/2". Either of these methods have more cons over the other?

[Marshall Mauney]

I can move the pedal further forward to give more leg room but I will need to do one of two things for this to happen. Cut down the studs from the master cylinders or add washers/spaces where the master cylinders mount to the chassis.

Have you removed the extenders? From the earlier photo, it looks as if you have an extra length of threaded rod between the master cylinder piston and the pedal, with a coupler in between. There's no reason you can't screw the piston directly into the pedal with a jam nut to secure it - and I can't imagine needing to go shorter than that.

[dsmithwc04]

Have you removed the extenders? From the earlier photo, it looks as if you have an extra length of threaded rod between the master cylinder piston and the pedal, with a coupler in between. There's no reason you can't screw the piston directly into the pedal with a jam nut to secure it - and I can't imagine needing to go shorter than that.

I could do that but then there would only be about 1.5" of travel on the brake pedal before hitting the steering shaft. What is normal brake pedal travel? What would the travel be with the a complete loss of pressure in either the front or rear systems.

[dsmithwc04]

Okay, I've spend way more frustration and time than should be necessary to adjust the brake pedal how I like. I turned the pedal around and because of the pivot point geometry now the pedal hits the steering shaft. This pedal simply will not work without heating it up and bending it about an inch towards the clutch (which would then leave very little room to work the clutch so thankfully I will only be using it in the pits).

I've heard people say this is not good to do as it weakens the brake pedal. Well, I'm 6'1 and wear size 13 shoe so either it moves or it gets replaced and with what I have no idea.