Voluntary Spec Tire, Western Majors?

[DaveZ]

I know the flack will be forthcoming, but I'm willing to risk it...DZ suggesting a Spec FF Tire, WHAT??? Yes, it's true, you read it here first.

Given all the current discussion and obvious enthusiasm on other threads here on Apex, all the discussion of the last several years both pro and con on the subject, the apparent happiness of the Canadians and the Arizona FF guys, plus the blown budgets of Runoffs-mania this year and the (probably) resultant sparse fields of next year, I'm caving in and finally agreeing that the idea's time has come...

So here's the suggestion: We start the 2015 Western Conference Majors season at Fontana mid-January, with a VOLUNTARY choice to run the Toyo R888 tires. And if the idea has traction (no pun intended...), hopefully we finish the season on that tire. There's no way in the world we could get consensus let alone action from SCCA National in time for this first race, nor probably any time in 2015 for that matter, hence the VOLUNTARY status. If we're all on them, we have a blast and save a ton of money. If someone chooses to show up on Hoosiers or Avons and wins the races, we simply never speak to them again... To take it a logical step or two further, we adopt the same "rule" for the Pacific F1600 Series, especially since many of its races will be combined with the Western Conference Majors, and logically the San Francisco Region and/or Cal Club Regional races could be the same.

What do you think? Feedback, please, either publicly or by p.m.

Thanks & Happy Holidays to all,
DZ

[DanW]

DZ, if you make this happen, I'll buy you a beer and a steak at Pinnacle Peak in San Dimas, which is on the way home from Fontana.

[Garey Guzman]

Good idea! If I could afford to tow from TN, I'd be there since I actually really enjoyed Fontana! Anyone got a car I can borrow in return for a set of tires that'll last you all year?

BTW, I am absolutely POSITIVE that there is one prep shop who will not "volunteer" to join you, no matter how many other participate.....

[denny_renfrow]

As I have discussed with others, I have inclinations towards this sort of tire selection. I was mostly hoping it would become a SFR Regional Race arrangement. I've always made the point that regional racing should be more cost effective, and if you really want the last tenths of a second of lap time (or seconds), the more expensive tires are available, and would be appropriate for Majors or Pro-series racing. Of course there is nothing wrong with using cost effective tires in those series as well, as you have proposed. I would welcome that situation.

But I suspect it will be tougher to get voluntary cooperation at Majors races. Some folks (Alex I hear, and Chuck will need to defend, or I think they vacate his 2014 finish) are planning to attend the Daytona Runoffs next year. So they will likely be more committed to running the fastest possible setup, and tuning themselves for a race where we all know tire cost will be a secondary concern (i.e. the Runoffs). And that will happen at Majors races. But lets hear from them, eh?

I would be up for using the Toyos at Fontana in January if the right set of people agree to the same.

[teamwisconsin]

Even though I won't be running any FF races in 2015, I think this is a grand idea. I applaud DZ for being the point man on this; somebody had to be the first one to say it. I hope this flies!

[Roland V. Johnson]

I would think you might have a better chance if you chose the Hoosier R-60's instead. I think the huge set-up changes to run Radial tires is more than the market will take.

[DaveZ]

Maybe so re setup changes, but experiences of 2013 with the Lynx Racing Spectrums and the PR1 Mygales, plus what's been learned in Canada on various chassis, all suggest minimal changes have produced good results. True for all cars and drivers? Probly not, but we'll see. Re the Hoosier R60, that's also a good consideration. There's talk here in SFR about allowing both, and let the drivers have a choice. Thx for your input!

[Skelly]

I will only be running a few races in 2015, but i am with dave on having a spec tire of some type for the regional races,Hoosier R-60, or Toyo, would be a great choice i think.

Sean
99VD Honda

[rick payne_75]

While this is an idea I would normally be ALL over. I just purchased in the past week 4 sets of tires. My plan is to prepare for Daytona at the Western Majors. Rick Payne

[DaveZ]

While this is an idea I would normally be ALL over. I just purchased in the past week 4 sets of tires. My plan is to prepare for Daytona at the Western Majors. Rick Payne

Bummer, guess you'll probably win all the races, Rick! I am also planning/hoping to do Daytona, but figured I won't forget how to set my car up nor drive it to the max on stickies if I run the Majors season on Toyos, then dial it and myself back in for Daytona after our last Majors at Portland in July. Meanwhile, I'll save enough money not spent on tires to pay for a couple test days plus the haul to Daytona. Would you consider that approach?

[rick payne_75]

I will be more than happy to run a spec tire at all Majors except Fontana as we are trying some different stuff there and have already committed a ton of time into changing the car

[DaveZ]

Fair enough, Rick, thanks! We'll talk at Fontana.

[Tom Duncan]

I am completely and 100% in support of Daves suggestion of a spec tire in FF at both the regional and Majors level and the Toyo seems a reasonable suggestion with all things considered.

To be fair I need to say the FF racers in the region I race in (San Francisco: Laguna, Sears and Thunderhill) have been putting some effort (spearheaded by Neil Porter and supported by most of the 'regulars') to making the Hoosier R60a the single spec tire for our 2015 regional championship, coming from the open tire rule we had in 2014 because of the Runoffs.

At one time (2010 to 2013) the Hoosier R60a was one of the spec tires we could use, and it won our regional championship in 2010 and 2011 (myself and Peter Nosler respectively). The tire worked very well for us with minimal fuss in transitioning from the various other tires used previously.

I have suggested the Toyo be included in the 2015 SFR tire rule as it seems to be taking hold in various FF championships and it would seem to do a lot of the things the R60a does (works, lasts, cheap, fun, easy setup) and might encourage some interchange between SFR and the other championships.

At this point I don't know what the sentiment is from Neil or all the others in the region about the Toyo so I can't speak for them but it seems to me the R888 is probably close in performance to the R60a so I suggest both tires be considered in the voluntary program after we find out how they compare in a side-by-side test and find them to be about equal in outright speed. Perhaps someone has had back to back experience with the Toyo vs R60a and can tell us how them compare. I have asked this in the "Which Tires???" thread here: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...401#post456401

I do hesitate to bring up the R60a and probably wouldn't normally as I would not want to dilute Daves effort in any way but as the SF region is already seeking a similar change but to a different tire and others in this thread have mentioned the R60a as being their top suggestion I felt I should.

Tom Duncan

PS: By the way, if anyone suggests the R60a is a "Club Ford tire" please correct them as it is not. According to Bruce Foss of Hoosier the R60a is basically the same standard front line FF tire from some years back, before the use of Kevlar and other exotic materials were used. It is NOT an American Racer AR133 which is indeed a Club Ford tire.

[flagman]

Kind of like jumping in the deep end of the pool without a life jacket. I'm all for working toward a more affordable solution but the first race at Fontana doing 140 on high bank without knowing anything about setup is not very safe.

It's obvious there's a lot of conflicting information out there on exactly what setup changes are required. Hoosier says they will release set up info before season starts for the new treaded f1600 DOT tire but I doubt that will be in time to do any testing before Fontana . I would think it would be pretty close to a toyo setup but just guessing . I personally am not against either toyo or Hoosier R60 but don't want to have to do serious setup changes between majors and regionals.
So step 1 should be to find out what changes are required and go from there but I don't think we can get comfortable enough before Fontana. There will be plenty of time between now and the 1st regional to get a pretty good handle on it. The other idea being floating around about approving both and "take your pick" approach seems doable but only if they are both close in lap times. After a season , it will sort itself out.

That's my two cents and I'm all ears

Chuck

Sent from my iPhone

[Brian C in Az]

I suggest both tires be considered in the voluntary program after we find out how they compare in a side-by-side test and find them to be about equal in outright speed. Perhaps someone has had back to back experience with the Toyo vs R60a and can tell us how them compare. I have asked this in the "Which Tires???" thread here: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...401#post456401

....

I am willing to donate seat time and Toyo tires to anyone that brings their car and a set of R60 tires to Phoenix. We can swap tires of 3 different chassis FF's and see how each car handles with the R60. Since the 3 cars here already have the Toyo's it will be a simple matter of those drivers trying the R60's on their cars and I will donate/loan a set of Toyo's to whoever brings the R60's and wants to try the Toyos's in a head to head comparison.

[captdigi]

I ran the Toyos at Fontana with the SCCA last June and found them to be Very stable at top speed, on the oval. Just increased the camber, and adjusted the ride height accordingly. Also, the tires I ran were a year old with a bunch of heat cycles. Great tire.

[DaveZ]

Going back to Dec 13th, the following was the heart of my post that day...

"So here's the suggestion: We start the 2015 Western Conference Majors season at Fontana mid-January, with a VOLUNTARY choice to run the Toyo R888 tires. And if the idea has traction (no pun intended...), hopefully we finish the season on that tire."

Since then, the following have occurred:

• There was a lot of positive response to the idea, even if not for this first event.
• There is an incredibly high amount of positive interest here on Apex for a nation-wide spec tire rule (on the other thread that John LaRue started and Reid Hazelton organized the straw vote, which, BTW, appears to clearly favor the Toyo so far with 50-something% in favor of that tire over 2 or 3 others).
• We're hopefully on the verge of having a Regional spec tire rule here in San Francisco Region that will include the Toyo among other choices.
• And, I had a really fun and educational test day last Sunday at Thunderhill on the Toyos, with very few changes to my Piper.

So, I'm ready now to follow the suggestion above, and will be running the Toyos at Fontana, hopefully to at least a mid-pack finish. Anyone care to join me? Hope so! And if it rains, who knows??

[Brian C in Az]

Going back to Dec 13th, the following was the heart of my post that day...

"So here's the suggestion: We start the 2015 Western Conference Majors season at Fontana mid-January, with a VOLUNTARY choice to run the Toyo R888 tires. And if the idea has traction (no pun intended...), hopefully we finish the season on that tire."

Since then, the following have occurred:

• There was a lot of positive response to the idea, even if not for this first event.
• There is an incredibly high amount of positive interest here on Apex for a nation-wide spec tire rule (on the other thread that John LaRue started and Reid Hazelton organized the straw vote, which, BTW, appears to clearly favor the Toyo so far with 50-something% in favor of that tire over 2 or 3 others).
• We're hopefully on the verge of having a Regional spec tire rule here in San Francisco Region that will include the Toyo among other choices.
  
• And, I had a really fun and educational test day last Sunday at Thunderhill on the Toyos, with very few changes to my Piper.

So, I'm ready now to follow the suggestion above, and will be running the Toyos at Fontana, hopefully to at least a mid-pack finish. Anyone care to join me? Hope so! And if it rains, who knows??

I think that point was muddied when Hoosier said that their tire needed -3.5* camber to work (even in the rear). As you mentioned, the Toyo R888's need only minor set up changes to work well.

As mentioned in previous posts, once people actually try the R888's they usually like them enough to switch. The most vocal opponents are the people that have never tried them.

I'm sure that you will do better than mid pack once you get the feel for them. Good Luck!

[TimH]

Fontana is too soon for us to organize a visit, but if CA opens up for us to run Toyos front-, mid-, or back of the grid some of us will be there. Jens just bought a trailer he's rigging to carry eleven cars at a time.

This looks to be an exciting growth period for FF.

[racerdad2]

Way off topic. Would love to see the 11 car hauler !!! I carried 5 karts in a 10' trailer. Stacked vertically. Intriguing. ...

Go Toyo's !

[Tom Duncan]

This sounds familiar: "As mentioned in previous posts, once people actually try the R888's they usually like them enough to switch. The most vocal opponents are the people that have never tried them", that was what happened in the SFR region several years ago with our effort to adopt the R60a.

In all but one case (where they made no effort to change ride height so they had 1/4" of rear ride height and reverse rake) all that actually tried the R60a liked it. In one case a long-time Goodyear user was finally convinced to try them (I had to agree to buy them from him if he didn't like them) his comment to his crew chief upon coming off the track was to sell his stock of Goodyears and use the R60a from then on. In his case the financial incentive was minimal.

Try as we might to get the naysayers to actually try the tire they just wouldn't, even when one was a Hoosier dealer. We even had a mounted set at the track with us so anyone could just bolt them on their car and drive...no takers.

Herding cats...

Tom Duncan

[TimH]

Way off topic. Would love to see the 11 car hauler !!! I carried 5 karts in a 10' trailer. Stacked vertically. Intriguing. ...
Go Toyo's !

It's a 48-foot stacker. Two cars will go over the gooseneck, then three stacks of three in the main area. He'll have to take the nose crush boxes off Swifts to make it work but there are several inches to spare. Biggest concern is he's right on the weight limit.

[racerdad2]

Very cool ! Hope he makes weight ! Would love to see the onlookers as 11 cars are unloaded.

[swiftracer]

DZ

I appreciate your idea and would be more than willing to run Toyo's after we do the Auto Club weekend. I just ran across this thread this morning and unfortunately I have set up the car for Avons. I have purchased Avons in anticipation of trying them at the Runoffs this year and figure Auto Club will present the best West Coast comparison.

We should gather up our group (maybe on Saturday evening) and determine a path forward.

I like to idea of a hard relatively low cost spec tire and will conform to the direction the group choses.

If we can get together on Saturday I would like to learn what set up changes you tried at Thill.

Given that you have tested on the Toyos I think you would have solid knowledge that could be shared with our FF group.

regards
mark keller FF 66

[DaveZ]

Mark, that's great, and thanks for the comments. You're not alone in wanting to run a conventional setup for Fontana, as it really is/was a short notice idea. So far, I think I'll be the only one on the Toyos, but there is the possibility one of Steve Cameron's clients may join in as well. Hopefully there will be more of us on them as the season goes along.

Regardless, we'll hopefully gain some helpful info of my lap times and feedback vs those on Hoosiers and/or Avons, on the same track in the same sessions, which should be of interest to a lot of folks. Doubt that anyone will be on Hoosier R60's, so we may not get any comparative info there. Meeting/discussing on Saturday afternoon sounds like a good idea.

Re the setup info, I will be more than happy to share what I learn. What I know so far from the one very cold test day was that they like camber, but not a lot (maybe 1.5 degrees beyond whatever is normal for a given car), and they like softer springs. Shock valving and ARB's should stay the same, with some minor tweaking of shock settings. Talking to Steve Cameron yesterday, that's pretty much what they learned when he and Bobby Orgele had the fast kids out there on the Toyos in 2013. According to Steve (and Brian Graham in Canada), the wear is pretty amazing...like running 3 full test days on 1 set with virtually no falloff from new 'til worn out, days that would have eaten 2 sets per day of Hoosier F1600's.

See you at Fontana!
DZ

[efoxfield]

You guys are killing me talking about racing in January. It's seven below in Chicago and racing for us is month away.
Personally I favor the Hoosier 60s as their sole business is racing and they support us at just about every track. I suppose you could make a case that we support them also.
You guys have fun at Fontana. I enjoyed racing with all of you at the Runoffs.
Ed Midgley

[Roland V. Johnson]

How did the Toyo's end up working at Fontana?

[DaveZ]

To answer Roland's question, I gave up a lot of points and it wasn't much fun to not be on the podium, but the Toyos worked very well, and were up to, if not beyond, my expectations.

The weather was warm enough to finally get some heat into the tires, ambient being lo-to-mid 70's, and track temp actually got above 80. Initially the car was really loose (opposite of normal), but we kept working on it thru Sunday afternoon's race, and made good progress. The main changes were softer springs, bar and shock settings, plus about 1 to 1.5 degrees more camber front and rear. Nothing serious nor difficult, but the tires work best if/when you can get the car into a nice 4-wheel drift, and having o/s or u/s (vs. neutral) makes that pretty tough, at least for this old man.

Unfortunately the lap times as seen on Race Monitor don't tell the whole story, but my data does...by the end of Sunday, we shoulda/woulda been in the 49's (maybe 48's) were it not for something going on that was killing our straight line speed. And no, it wasn't the tires. Something happened between Saturday and Sunday that I haven't figured out yet that took almost 4 mph off our speed on the banking, and about 2 mph on the infield straights. Planning to put her back on the scale pad later this week and check/measure everything, especially toe. Corner entry and exit speeds improved dramatically as we got the car back to neutral handling, hence the confidence of where the lap times should have been, sub 1:50's. Point of reference, on Friday the fast guys on sticker R25's were in the low 46's, and 3rd place on up were in the 47's or more. Mike Lewis and Alex Kirby both did a 45-something lap on Sunday, but everyone else was 46-plus, I think...and, I saw a lot of folks put 2 sets on for the weekend....gad$$!

Fast enough to run against Hoosier or Avon slicks? Hell, no, but to be on ~$700 set of tires that could and should be within 2-3 secs of them on an almost-2-minute lap time track ain't bad, especially considering neither the car nor the driver are exactly optimized yet for these tires. The car was really fun to drive, the tires absolutely did not fall off during the 6 heat cycles of the weekend, and setup changes were easy and do-able. BTW, the same set ran the whole test day at Thunderhill on 12/28 which was slow and cold, but a lot of miles nonetheless, and the wear so far appears negligible -- still have about 1/8" of rubber to go before they hit the DOT "wear bars".

Hoping to do a test day on the same set at Sonoma before the Chuckwalla Majors, and that will tell us more. So far, it's all good!

DZ

[Tom Duncan]

Thanks for the report Dave, the Toyos look really promising, perhaps not as slow as first suggested and maybe more fun to drive. I'm really looking forward to trying a set when the weather gets a bit better.

Lets hope the SF region Board approves our interest in the proposed spec tires rule so we can play with the Toyo on more even ground.

Tom

[Tom Duncan]

The San Francisco Region (SCCA) Board of Directors has approved a spec tire rule for the regional FF championship. It is made up of three tires: Hoosier R60a, Toyo R888 and American Racer R133. You must run on a marked tire. Marking of up to 4 tires per weekend (plus one for damage replacement) and only at your first officially timed on-track session. You only have to run on marked tires, not necessarily those marked that weekend.

Come on down!!!

Tom Duncan

[CornerSpeed]

Woo hoo! I'm looking forward to seeing the first event where we get a full field of FF all on Toyos. That will be a spectacle to behold!