Which Tire????

[Brian C in Az]

John LaRue started the discussion about the criteria for a spec or DOT tire for the boards to use in determining what tire they should specify.
He didn't want a debate as to which tire we want in his thread. I think that we should put in our vote here as to which tire and why. So far the only three mentioned are the Hoosier R60, Toyo Proxie R888, Avon ACB10.

Here are a couple of quotes from the other thread to start the discussion.

I was looking for criteria by which to evaluate the choices, not a debate as to what the best option would be.

My list would include:

unit cost,
durability (overall mileage),
consistency (fall off between heat cycles),
radial vs. bias,
weight,
driveabiity (is the tire something that the average racer can set his car up for and race on?),
ultimate performance,
at track service,
universal application (wet & dry)

John

EMPHASIS ADDED

I think most missed that John asked for criteria on EITHER a spec OR DOT tire, not just DOT


IMHO

The HOOSIER R60 is already the perfect choice, and CURRENTLY MEETS REASONABLE CRITERIA.

1-it's already produced
2-it has support at the track
3-tried and true product, for a couple decades in CFF
4-Contingency programs from Hoosier in past are good, no doubt in future also.
5-It lasts 20 cycles
6-It's a true slick
7-It's hard enough you don't need goofy tire marking rules
8-It's not such a huge leap from current NO TIRE RULE, to a spec slick, but it sure would save the $$$$
9-Sizes are right,
10-quality American tire company, with no supply issues (unlike vintage tires)


/\ above would be my criteria list

THANK YOU MARC FOR TODAY'S "TOP TEN" LIST and dare I say the ANSWER

The HOOSIER R60 is the "Choice" - need nothing further lets NOT re-invent the wheel, err tire - to repeat, currently made USA tires; well known and tested technology, at track service, as Hoosier already there -a huge benefit; - wear exceptional, I asked a plethora of CF guys who run them for almost a full year due to size, only minor set-up development needed to convert from pure stickies; look good, without apologies, I like the looks of slicks on my race car; remember those ugly "threaded" F1 tires, etc.,

- Come on, and I am sorry, but the R60s is the only sensible, logical and practical choice; it is about time !!!!

- Candidly, I have NEVER heard any reasonable let alone rational argument not to use them BUT then wonders never cease so .....

proceed ...........

Note/CV: I believe I can speak from some experience having been involved in FF since 1977 and Jason has done over 60 races in the past eight (8) years (admittedly on GYs)- but did race the ARRC on R60s when it was a requirement. Tires ARE are one of the top if not the major economic concern in every one of our years budget

[Brian C in Az]

The Canadians have been using the tire with no complaints.
The R888 doubles as a rain tire with no modifications.
It is consistent for more than 20 heat cycles for the fast guys.
Very little set up change is needed as has been documented by the guys that race both in Canada and the US.
More Canadians will participate in US events; = large fields
Very low cost, lowest among all three tires mentioned thus far. Especially if you factor in the cost of a rain tire to supplement the R60.
Large manufacturer with a commitment to provide the tires for at least 5 more years.
Multi sources for purchasing the tires.

[Brian C in Az]

We did a back to back test with Toyo tires that were run for 17mins, then sat in an unheated/un AC West New York storage unit for 11 1/2 monthes, and a new set of stickers. No difference in time or driver feedback (once we got the glue, mold release, and nibs off). We subsequently mixed and matched with no negative issues, at times running tires together that were purchased over a range of 3 years. This was at lap record pace.

Any differences in grip seem to be short-term after relocating tires to different corners. It seems to take a few laps to rearrange the rubber pickup and wear pattern. While the Toyos may not be the best tire in the world, they are absolutely consistent, durable, and affordable.

Long shelf life after the tire has been heat cycled is important for many. Concerns about buying a set in Sept, then sitting until April were raised. I think this satisfies those concerns.

[andyllc]

I am good with either of 2...

Hoosier R-60 but mandate the sizes they have to be
or
Toyo...

My real preference would be for the Toyo's but I just don't see SCCA and the FF racers as a whole in this country going for it. Having one tire rain or shine is nice.
If we can't agree with that then the R-60 is the next best IMO but mandate a specific tire size.

I prefer the Toyo over the Hoosier because even though the Hoosier is a great tire I still need to have rains and I will still buy a new set of slicks for every Major weekend I attend (just won't buy two sets).

I am new to the rule change timeline. With the season starting in a month would this rule be in place for 2015 or not until 2016?

[John LaRue]

At the earliest this would be a rule for 2016.

[racerdad2]

A FF is on my Santa list. The Toyo's make good sense for club racing on both sides of the Northern border.

[Raceworks]

Didn't we go over this a couple of months ago? Letters were written to the comp board?

I'm not going into that much detail again. See my comments here. Early on I played devil's advocate, and posted some results of hasty basic reaearch: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63690


Short answer was the most economical choice is the Toyo R888's, preferably with a rule of set sizes front & rear. Doesn't seem to require any major re-engineering (just double your camber settings).

Hoosier's DOT's are another readily available option, although the cost benefits may be negligible.

Consensus at the time hated the DOT tire idea. Oddly, some protests came from the Vee guys, because they're under the delusion that DOT's will somehow slow us down into their craptacular speed range. Given that they're practically fixed objects to us now I don't see how we'd ever affect a Vee race with Toyos other than they'd only lose two laps instead of three.

Consensus was that the R60 seemed to be the most viable current option, possibly with a non-cantilver construction. Another idea that was floated is whatever tire the pro series seems to be going to.

Me, I don't care as long as it makes the racing cheaper and we have at least 5 years' availability for whatever we pick.


And honestly the idea that you currently MUST buy a new set every race weekend to compete is just silly.

I did 15 races (including two the pro weekend on the glen) while buying only 3.5 sets of tires. I finished all of them but the one at Daytona that was rained out. I got two regional wins & a bunch of podiums with that. I might have even won the last race at Formula Fest at Summit Point on 10-heat-cycle R45's had I noticed my throttle stop had moved and I was only getting 85% throttle.

I won the ARRC on the same tires I raced at the Glenn. They had 2-4 heat cycles and at least an hour of track time before going into the weekend. By the time we hit the race they were at heat cycles 5/6 and upwards of 3 hours of track time on them. Ask Douglas, Stewart, Geri, & Gary how off my car was there.

Also keep in mind that most of my seat time in FF was this year. Before then I did one double regional & the ARRC in the Piper back in 2011.

Regardless of what happens with the rules, here's some advice from someone who hasn't spent nearly as much money in 20 years of racing as some people think he has:

1. If you're new to the game, don't worry about having new tires every race. You likely won't notice the difference, and stickers versus good scrubs is only an average of 1.5 seconds anyway. If pole is 6 seconds away the tires aren't going to matter. Put a more conservative setup on your car, rotate and/or flip the tires frequently, and run the tires till you hit the cords or the handling gets noticeably worse. You'll be a better driver for learning how to drive with less grip anyway.
2. If you happen to have someone in your area who's tossing tires out after 1-2 heat cycles. Become his friend and find out what he does with those tires. I raced most of a season on take-offs from one customer's Runoffs trip.
3. If you must buy new tires, buy the hardest compounds available. I have been competitive against people on softer tires with R45 Hoosiers or R475 Goodyears. I've noticed two things: the lower friction means that you have better acceleration & top end, and the harder compounds don't drop off as much. You can really work the "tortoise & hare" scenario to your advantage, especially in races on very hot days that have no full-course cautions.
4. Avoid testing whenever possible. If you do test, do it on the oldest usable tires you have. Again, the slipping & sliding will only be to your benefit when you put the newer shoes on for the "real show." Minimize your qualifying time. I don't know about you, but I come to the track to RACE. If I give up some initial track position in exchange for having enough tire life left to administer a beat-down in the race, that's a fair trade-off to me. My rule of thumb is that as soon as my lap times plateau in qualifying, I pull in.

[Steve Bamford]

Sam,

I don't see any event we could start with R45's & take them into the next weekend other then testing. Our set up seemed better them some others on tire wear & we always need to use the 6 allowable in the pro series over a weekend & no way we could race another weekend with them. For testing we would use what we could but also had to buy other tires for testing from time to time as our used tires ran out of useable heat cycles.

I do not agree with testing as little as possible. Most drivers & teams learn more about the set up per track the more testing time they have.

R45's do not last long enough to be competitive for more then a couple of heat cycles against someone else running stickers.

We need a tire that will stay competitive much, much longer.

[Tom Valet]

There is no point in voting until we see the new Hoosier Pro tire. Most of the testing is already done. It will be significantly different from anything currently available in the US.

[Tom Duncan]

Speaking of testing, has anyone done a true back-to-back/same track/same day/same time of day/same conditions/same driver/same chassis test between the Hoosier R60a and the Toyo R888 on a single FF chassis? I would really like to hear the results.

Tom Duncan

[Brian C in Az]

I am willing to donate seat time and Toyo tires to anyone that brings their car and a set of R60 tires to Phoenix. We can swap tires of 3 different chassis FF's and see how each car handles with the R60. Since the 3 cars here already have the Toyo's it will be a simple matter of those drivers trying the R60's on their cars and I will donate/loan a set of Toyo's to whoever brings the R60's and their car already set up for the R60's and wants to try the Toyos's in a head to head comparison.

[marshall9]

I am willing to donate seat time and Toyo tires to anyone that brings their car and a set of R60 tires to Phoenix. We can swap tires of 3 different chassis FF's and see how each car handles with the R60. Since the 3 cars here already have the Toyo's it will be a simple matter of those drivers trying the R60's on their cars and I will donate/loan a set of Toyo's to whoever brings the R60's and their car already set up for the R60's and wants to try the Toyos's in a head to head comparison.

I'll participate in that as well. I haven't driven on slicks in a few years and would like to see how I do on them in comparison to the Toyos. Someone who hasn't driven on Toyos, but recently has on slicks, can see how they do on them..........

[Tom Duncan]

Phoenix is too far for me to go (from the Sacramento, CA area) but I would be very keen to hear the results of such a test. Any dates talked about?

Tom Duncan

[Tom Duncan]

Today (Wednesday, Jan 21) the San Francisco Region SCCA Board of Directors approved a request by the drivers to re-institute a spec tire rule for the regional championship. We have had a spec tire rule in various forms since 2007, with the exception of 2014 when we reverted to an open tire rule because of the Runoffs being local to us.

Our rule is a bit different than most discussed in that it is a category of what we call 'high value' tires with multiple brands/models dictated, not just one tire. In this case we have 3 tires approved, the Hoosier R60a, Toyo R888 and American Racer AR133.

We define a 'higher value' tire as one that is cheap to buy, easy to adapt to (car and driver), cheap to run, lasts forever and doesn't fall off significantly between track sessions.

The fastest tire of the selection becomes the benchmark tire, in this case the R60a. The thinking is if any other tire is no faster and generally meets the criteria it should be welcomed. What can it hurt? This allows us to continually test new tires (or new to us, like the Toyo) towards having the ultimate high value race tire and gives the drivers some choices.

We have a lot of experience with the R60a, the 2010 and 2011 regional championships were won on it. The Toyo we have virtually no local experience with but there is a lot of interest. Though some had suggested we just go with the Toyos as a single spec tire many felt that was a bit too much of a leap for this year. As one can run the Toyos alongside the other two tires we can play with them freely and see how they work for us.

With the limitations of current tire technology a tire that lasts longer and is cheaper to run than the R60a will almost certainly be slower. However if such a miracle did happen and a tire is created that is 'higher value' and faster it would have to be considered the new benchmark.

If someone shows up with un-approved tires they can run but they will have to start at the physical back of the grid (not just behind the last FF) and will not be scored. This would allow someone on Avon ACB10's (for instance) and see how they stack up.

We have also instituted a marking rule that allows only 5 tires per weekend but many of us suspect that won't be needed. We plan on reviewing the rule as the year progresses and making changes as we need to.

Tom Duncan