In an ideal world the requirement to slow down that slow should be tempered by visibility of the incident. In the real world you have to operate at the least-aware driver's abilities.Originally Posted by David Locke
In an ideal world the requirement to slow down that slow should be tempered by visibility of the incident. In the real world you have to operate at the least-aware driver's abilities.
In addition to the waving yellow flags, I believe there was a flashing yellow light before he reached the corner. The bottom line is that he lost control of his car while he was in a yellow flag zone, not in a green flag zone. Based on the layout of the track and his trajectory, the car probably was out of control before he could even see the green flag. But even if that's not the case and he could see the waving green flag ahead, he should be aware that the green flag zone does not begin until he reaches the plane of the flag. It's not my intention to say the accident was entirely his fault -- I wasn't there and I don't know what the conditions were. But I can't imagine that the green flag that's shown in the video had anything to do with causing this accident.
Too fast for existing conditions....
"An analog man living in a digital world"
It's the way we do things here in the Northwest too, Tiago. Both in ICSCC and SCCA. We just don't have green flaggers but we have tried that in the past.
Once you are PAST the incident causing a yellow flag, you are free to resume racing at speed.
For a short time, ICSCC tried to introduce the concept of maintaining yellow flag speed until the next turn station displaying a green flag PAST the incident. But because of the length between stations at some of our tracks, this didn't work out.
I think the FIA actually has some 'extra' green flagging stations set up around most F1 tracks.
I agree with Peter Olivia, purely driver error by Bianchi in not controlling his car in a yellow flag zone. A tragedy none the less.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
i agree i don't think he would have been confused (assuming he saw the flags - which none of use know based on visibility, or if visibility was that bad would the flags have mattered) but the video i saw - looks for all the world to me like the car and maybe the picker are still past the station when it goes green. perspective perhaps? I've not seen any video of where the yellow started.
BT29-24 Swift DB1 Matra M530
Yup, I meant the green flags. I believe our CACC events (CACC is part of the FIA.. or something) used to (and might still?) have green flags after incidents, but like you said, they're usually off in the distance at the next corner. I wish we had as many volunteers at our corner stations as they have at any F1 race!
It really does not matter how far away the next flag station is; the yellow is from the "plane" of the yellow station to the "Plane" of the next clear station. As far as race resuming after clearing the incident; how is a driver to know how many cars were involved? When an accident starts at the beginning of a downgrade, other cars could be further down the track and even may be on the track itself. The safest proceedure is the best one. The station worker are the drivers BEST friends and race control must back them up with their decisions. Pass under yellow and if you do not give that position back as soon as possible you should be Black-flagged. Do this and watch how quickly the "real world" catches on.
Do you mean real world as in pro, or amateur?
In my experience (watching), the pros do not have a problem here. They are paid (or pay) and push the rules as much as possible with IMHO full understanding of the risks involved. Enforcement swings from loose to strict with the tides, and fans complain either way.
Also in my experience, in amateur racing PUY usu. occurs due to being over one's head. NOT because of intentionally trying to push the limit of the rules. Penalties can only go so far in fixing that. One also has to consider the problems of a volunteer workforce (F&C). Nowhere have I seen it more evident than at COTA 2 years ago.
Budplug, don't impose amateur club racing rules on the FIA racing world. In FIA racing (including CASC, an FIA affiliate) the rule is the yellow zone exists from the flag station to the incident. Once you are past the incident, regardless of a green flag or not, the track is hot and you can race. There is no requirement to reach a green flag or the next flag station. Not saying it's perfect, just saying it's the FIA rule.
At the end of the day, the cause of this accident was clearly driver error. There is no excuse for losing control of the car in a yellow zone, defacto the driver was in error. The question is the use of the JCB in a hot track situation. Long practice is to do so, so no question that it should have been done in this case using precedent as a guide. Now - do you change the rules that govern such use, or continue to leave it to the wisdom of whoever controls the use of such equipment? Did FIA allow it, or the local corner workers who work such a race once a year, or once a lifetime?
Brian
I took it as a pointed reference to my statement about "the real world" (in the Great Lakes and Central Divisions) in post #32.
Brian,
The FIA rules (and the North American Unified Flagging Rules-used by most pro U.S./Canadian Road Racing Series) define the yellow zone as ending with the first green flag. SCCA Club Racing defines the yellow zone as ending immediately after the incident. F1 requires a minimum distance between flag stations to reduce the size of the yellow flag zone that would otherwise be created. Club racing doesn't have the luxury of that many corner workers.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
that all good well unless all the standing yellows are behind you... and the yellow in front of you goes green.... then you could assume that track is now green. how would you (Bianchi) know that corner was still yellow if he entered and it was all yellow, and then mid corner the yellows seen (now a flag station) changes to green and its all go time? i might assume the corner (including where i am now) is now green since its changed from yellow to green.
someone a few seconds ahead would seems all yellow
someone a few seconds behind would have seen the entry was still yellow and only the exit went green.
bianchi might have only seen "the yellows go green"
BT29-24 Swift DB1 Matra M530
You wouldn't assume that. In FIA there is always a green flag at the end of the yellow zone. Therefore when you see a green, you will not assume the track is all green, you know from every single prior race experience that you are still in the yellow zone.
If the track is all green, the green actually comes DOWN along with the yellow.
Also, I didn't see the photos or video but from what I read the green station was pretty much adjacent to the incident? So if he did see the green he would also have seen the recovery crew still working.
You're making the mistake because in our racing we don't normally see a green flag other then at the start of the race, where it does mean go NOW NOW NOW, not wait until you reach the flag.
Last edited by mousecatcher; 10.08.14 at 12:12 AM.
You people who make this argument on the basis of him 'seeing the flag' are forgetting one MOST IMPORTANT thing. It isn't seeing the flag that counts. It's crossing a perpendicular plane from the track to the point of flagging that counts. I take a line from the flag point and run it STRAIGHT out to where it crosses the track. That is where the yellow zone starts and in the luxury of a green flag, where the racing begins again.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
The NAUF is a slight modification of the FIA rules:
http://www.mx-5cup.com/files/misc/Un...les%202013.pdf
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
from the video i saw - the corner is all yellow, lights and flags. then a few seconds before bianchis off, and possibly (i don't know - nor can say) a few seconds after he is past the yellow lights. the only yellow seen are the flags (?perhaps only seems by him in his position) that are changed to green, and then he goes off.... for sure - this happened. was yellow flags, changed to green and he goes off there ~5 seconds later. you can see that in the video.
I'm not mixing up the start flag experience. i might not know how F1 removes yellows though. so are you saying that if the corner went from yellow to "green condition" they would have removed all flags and lights to nothing? so there would be no green (flag or lights) after the yellow condition? - they just "go dark" after the yellow condition is cleared with no green on track shown? - at by virtue of bianchi seeing the yellow changed to green (as opposed to no flag) he would have known the section he was in, was still yellow? that... i don't know how F1 does it?
BT29-24 Swift DB1 Matra M530
ok i found the video. the yellows change to green because the tractor has moved past the flag station, ie the flag station is now beyond the incident and at that location the track is now green.
As Rick et al. have said, the green point is the plane of the flag station. Not when you are in line of sight of the green. If we had video of the station prior it would be yellow. Bianchi would know that because whenever you see a green you are still in the yellow zone.
(except for restarts - mostly to aid the back of the field.)
Yes, just like we do it. The flags just all go away.I'm not mixing up the start flag experience. i might not know how F1 removes yellows though. so are you saying that if the corner went from yellow to "green condition" they would have removed all flags and lights to nothing? so there would be no green (flag or lights) after the yellow condition? - they just "go dark" after the yellow condition is cleared with no green on track shown?
At the end of the day, this is all academic: no one aquaplanes off the track because they see a green flag come out, least of all the people in F1.
Just to let you know what I want to see happen is ALL the racing groups use the same rules. Having the same rules from Club racing through to the Pro racing would be less confussing. A driver would be very aware of the proper actions. Having uniform rules would also help all the safety workers from flagging through to race control. While some groups may have some special needs at least the basics would be known. That is what I would like to see.
Then do NOT EVER go road racing with NASCAR. Their flagging rules are totally different from any of the road racing clubs.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
A very good article, http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/2271/, in my opinion well worth reading. While having respect for yellow flags is certainly the right thing to do, Dr. Hartstein fails to address the reason for the apparent lack of respect, probably because he is not himself a racing driver. Under a local yellow, you do not want to lose the hard-won gap you've built to the car(s) behind you, nor do you want to lose ground to the guy in front. Even if you are thinking as rationally as Dr. Hartstein about what's at stake when a yellow flag is out (not always the case), such thoughts will likely be outweighed by competitive instincts: you know the guy behind will not slow as much as you do and in an instant will be under your wing. At minimum, the gap you have worked so hard to build will be reduced, if not lost altogether. You also know the guy in front is not going to slow as much as you do and will disappear down the road. This is only magnified by the pressures of racing in F1. It's not just a trophy or a few dollars at stake, it's your career. Any sign of weakness or appearing to have given something away unnecessarily is the first step toward being shown the door at the end of the season, if not sooner. In order for flag discipline to work, you have to be able to depend on other drivers to show the same respect that you show, and most of us don't have that much confidence in the "honor system" when it comes to yellow flag etiquette. There is no easy answer to this. It's not like a pit speed limit, where you can push a button on the steering wheel to make sure you don't exceed the speed limit. The appropriate speed for a local yellow depends on where it's located on the track. It's largely discretionary with the driver, and therein lies the problem. The reality of racing is that there is a built-in disincentive to slowing down unless and until something bad happens, which is exactly why bad things sometimes happen.
Last edited by David Locke; 10.08.14 at 4:03 PM.
Doesnt F1 monitor speed through yellow flag zones and penalize drivers if their speed is not a certain percentage slower than previous laps demonstrating that they lifted?
The linked article discusses questions from drivers about this.
As of last year, yes. Their sector time must be somewhat less than their fastest sector time, I don't recall the exact number.
Doesn't apply in worsening conditions like Suzuka. Because of the weather your sector times are guaranteed to be decreasing by the lap. In that sense there's actually incentive to push as hard as possible because the rules won't penalize you.
Yellow flags ignored
I have been driving in the SCCA for 40 years and have been flagging for 15 years. And in that time I have noticed that even in regional racing drivers don't slow for yellows. I have even seen cars pass cars with a full course yellow behind the pace car! When I began 40 years ago there was more respect for a yellow flag condition. And there were a lot more "hot pulls" and never a full course yellow. For most of us if not all of us this is a hobby and we are out to have fun. So let's all respect the yellow flag.
From BBC commentator James Allen's web site: "The problem with waved yellow flags is that there is no agreed speed to which a driver must slow down in a yellow flag zone. F1 engineers have told this site that in practice the drivers lift for a fraction of a second and then press on."
Tom, I started racing 35 years ago in the SCCA, and I agree that there was more respect for yellow flag conditions back then. And you're right, for most of us it is a hobby that we're doing for fun. But unfortunately, saying "let's all respect the yellow flag" is not likely to make it happen across the board. The only thing that will likely have an effect is penalizing drivers for overstepping the bounds, and that's not an easy thing to do. Where do you draw the line? How do you fairly enforce the "be prepared to stop" rule when you have different conditions and different officials interpreting and enforcing the rules at every event? In our litigious culture, the appeals would be endless. I don't have the answer for how to fix this problem, but it's fairly clear that we all need to give this some thought, before we have something in club racing as bad as (or worse than) Bianchi's accident.I have been driving in the SCCA for 40 years and have been flagging for 15 years. And in that time I have noticed that even in regional racing drivers don't slow for yellows. I have even seen cars pass cars with a full course yellow behind the pace car! When I began 40 years ago there was more respect for a yellow flag condition. And there were a lot more "hot pulls" and never a full course yellow. For most of us if not all of us this is a hobby and we are out to have fun. So let's all respect the yellow flag.
We, here in the Northwest have found a way that works. If there's an incident on track and a trackside crew member is out on track and the cars are not slowing down in a yellow flag zone, we throw the Black Flag All. That gets there attention and really effects their race. A few of those and they gain at least a level of respect for the yellow.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Peer pressure then works.
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I have been driving in the SCCA for 40 years and have been flagging for 15 years. And in that time I have noticed that even in regional racing drivers don't slow for yellows. I have even seen cars pass cars with a full course yellow behind the pace car! When I began 40 years ago there was more respect for a yellow flag condition. And there were a lot more "hot pulls" and never a full course yellow. For most of us if not all of us this is a hobby and we are out to have fun. So let's all respect the yellow flag.
I second that
Thanks for all the insight into the yellows and greens
As Derek said earlier in the blog the point of incident was waving yellow for Sutils car when it was past the flag point however as the car was being recovered it then past the point where the flag was yellow so the flag was then changed to green
I see it now however did not see it in the TV coverage
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