Laguna entry +$55

[Hardingfv32]

Not saying its the correct fee to charge, just making sure you are aware that its not just SFR charging that much for a Majors weekend.

Meg Sauce
SowDiv FF10

While off subject.... My point is that they own the track, yet the entry is the same as everywhere else.

Brian

[Bruce]

Dennis McCarthy I give up, some people wouldn't be happy if they were hung with a new rope....

I think you hit upon the problem, someone that started this post has. There is the other part where he gets his jollys from those that contribute to his antics.

[greg pizzo]

While off subject.... My point is that they own the track, yet the entry is the same as everywhere else.

Brian

so you are saying the Buttonwillow Major is not $575.00 ???

[FlaggerMark]

Look for something in the range of $540 for Cal Club's April Major at Buttonwillow.

[greg pizzo]

Look for something in the range of $540 for Cal Club's April Major at Buttonwillow.

Just read last year it was $700.00, is that correct ? dont they (cal club) own BW

and would I whine about $35.00 even if it was $575.00?? barely the gas bill for one session ...

if it was $700.00 that is a bit steep UNLESS you compare it to a pro event ... entry there nearly ALWAYS has a comma in the price, 1,000 PLUS ! it's all relative .. aren't Majors supposed to be nearly a Pro weekend ..

[FlaggerMark]

Greg, not sure where you are going with this, but the entry fee for the Cal Club April Majors at Buttonwillow this year is $540. Don't know what you are reading to come up with $700 for last year unless you may be looking at the Double Dip option from last year???

[gcoffin]

Thanks for clarifying my analogue Dennis

We have budgeted 3000.00 for entry fees and 450.00 for donations.

And yes the chair in a restaurant has a value, that is why your steak costs so much.

As for clubs owning race tracks, well they also own all the costs of running the track plus the debt of building it, plus the cost of capital for periodic repair and improvements. The clubs have a responsibility to their members to run their track as a business.

The main advantage is having a place to race.

Make no mistake track owners have a pretty good idea how much it costs all in to put on a race, they also have a pretty good idea what our revenues are per race......and they will raise their prices to maximize profit at our expense.

[Marshall Mauney]

While off subject.... My point is that they own the track, yet the entry is the same as everywhere else.

Brian

....and it should be the same. Think as a shareholder (member) - you wouldn't want to give away prime dates for lower revenue, even if the "customer" is yourself. If a given date would get $15K in rental from an outside sanction, then the "owning" sanction should pay the same. If you don't do that, you're not effectively managing your assets, and you are foregoing real incremental revenue that you could be collecting from other sanctioning bodies.

[greg pizzo]

Greg, not sure where you are going with this, but the entry fee for the Cal Club April Majors at Buttonwillow this year is $540. Don't know what you are reading to come up with $700 for last year unless you may be looking at the Double Dip option from last year???

Maybe that was it... it was not 100% clear ... the point is $100+/- fro an entry fee is not criteria to abandon the event, I don't think I was prepared to pay $650 X2 for COTA last year and did, unfourtnately some parts didnt arrive in time and we had to stay home but the main point is ENTRY fee is a SMALL drop in the bucket for a weekend event .. 20% of that +/- is a REALLY small drop... the amount of grief this has rasised is really disporportionate to the importance of it !! why not talk about why do tires cost so much !! +/- 20% of THAT bill is a much bigger deal !! really !!

[Hardingfv32]

....and it should be the same... If you don't do that, you're not effectively managing your assets, and you are foregoing real incremental revenue that you could be collecting from other sanctioning bodies.

The club owned track is a profit center and the profits should come back to the members as reduced entry or membership fees.

We also paid increased entry fees for almost a decade to help fund the track. When and how do those investments start to pay off for the membership?

Brian

[greg pizzo]

The club owned track is a profit center and the profits should come back to the members as reduced entry or membership fees.

We also paid increased entry fees for almost a decade to help fund the track. When and how do those investments start to pay off for the membership?

Brian

Brian
well low and behold mark your calendar for once I agree with you !! very good question ! but sadly the answer is I think it is too much trouble to do that accounting so no one who paid in gets a discount .. it is a very good question tho

[Hardingfv32]

the point is $100+/- fro an entry fee is not criteria to abandon the event

But, $100 + less track time + poor race groupings + high race car operating expenses could very well be a reason to abandon an event.

The fact is that the none of the above factors have been trending in a favorable direction for years. At some point the cost simply does not equate to the benefit.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

We also paid increased entry fees for almost a decade to help fund the track. When and how do those investments start to pay off for the membership?

They did the first day you raced at BuRP. You have a facility to race at...with all the CA whackos complaining about noise, their beloved poppy fields, the 3toed lizard or whatever. Do you want to race at Willow exclusively (personally I love the track but after a thousand laps or so at the same place it gets kind of boring) or that crap-hole of a layout now known as AutoClub Speedway? Throw in the value of the land to developers vs. the potential net income as a race track and we're fortunate we have places to race that don't require a 6 hour trek out into the desert.

[Daryl DeArman]

But, $100 + less track time + poor race groupings + high race car operating expenses could very well be a reason to abandon an event.

Agreed. Obviously in some classes entry fees are a larger percentage of the racers' budget.

There are other places to race. Keep showing up and paying the higher fees for less track time and poor race groupings and what's going to change?

[Marshall Mauney]

The club owned track is a profit center and the profits should come back to the members as reduced entry or membership fees.

We also paid increased entry fees for almost a decade to help fund the track. When and how do those investments start to pay off for the membership?

I disagree completely - you don't discount a limited-quantity product to yourself when you're trying to make a profit - that results in bad business decisions. The real payment back to the membership is getting is the ability to have first pick of track dates and control how that track operates. Just ask anyone who races at Daytona or Watkins Glen how much that sort of privilege would be worth to them.

Reduced membership fees? Sure! Give a credit to everyone who works a race at the club-owned track.

[Brett Lane]

Someone said something about East Coasters being pissed the runoffs are going to the left coast. I am one of those guys from the South(East), and believe it or not, I didn't fall off the turnip truck. I spent enough time in Southern California in the '80s that when I mentioned where I was from, the "Well, he's from the South..."

I am actually happy that the Runoffs are going to the West Coast. Great! And the first thing that is posted from the guys out there is how much money they have to spend. Specifically $55 or $60 more for administration costs. Isn't that why this thread was started? I personally am interested to see how many of these people actually show up, and wonder how they are going to keep sticker tires on their car for a week.

Again, I am happy to see the runoffs at Laguna Seca. I world class track that I've only seen on TV. I will never be able to race there unless someone offers me a ride out there some day.

There is a lot of guys from around here that are going to compete in 2015 to do the runoffs at Daytona. I am saving my coins as we speak. A lot of guys who never competed too much Nationally are going to be recognized as they have a lot of seat time there, and are very fast.

It will be my first and probably my last runoffs as I am not getting any younger. One thing I an pretty sure about is this time next year you won't see any of us "Southerners" bitching about a lousy $50.

Flame on, California surfer dudes, Yah!

[greg pizzo]

Someone said something about East Coasters being pissed the runoffs are going to the left coast. I am one of those guys from the South(East), and believe it or not, I didn't fall off the turnip truck. I spent enough time in Southern California in the '80s that when I mentioned where I was from, the "Well, he's from the South..."

I am actually happy that the Runoffs are going to the West Coast. Great! And the first thing that is posted from the guys out there is how much money they have to spend. Specifically $55 or $60 more for administration costs. Isn't that why this thread was started? I personally am interested to see how many of these people actually show up, and wonder how they are going to keep sticker tires on their car for a week.

Again, I am happy to see the runoffs at Laguna Seca. I world class track that I've only seen on TV. I will never be able to race there unless someone offers me a ride out there some day.

There is a lot of guys from around here that are going to compete in 2015 to do the runoffs at Daytona. I am saving my coins as we speak. A lot of guys who never competed too much Nationally are going to be recognized as they have a lot of seat time there, and are very fast.

It will be my first and probably my last runoffs as I am not getting any younger. One thing I an pretty sure about is this time next year you won't see any of us "Southerners" bitching about a lousy $50.

Flame on, California surfer dudes, Yah!

well said !!!
Like I keep saying if $55.00 is keeping you from being able to attend an event .. or if that $50.00 is very disturbing to you ... you may want to reconsider your involvement. it is not likey something that an individual will have any success trying to get changed
dont waste your time bitchin about it .. really
and Brett ....Im born n rased in Cali .. so it's not all of us

[budawe]

There is a basic flaw in comparing entry fees from track to track because many times pricing is established on a broader basis. If SF region priced events individually just based on track rentals, you'd see sky high fees at a track like Sonoma which charges nearly $30K a day and much lower fees at club owned tracks. Every region does an annual budget and prices accordingly.

The financial arrangements between club owned tracks and regions, vary quite a bit depending on the tax status of the region. The IRS looks very carefully and restricts, the relationships between for profit organizations, like tracks, and their non-profit owners, usually the regions.

I can't speak for Cal Club and Buttonwillow, but Thunderhill does make a contribution to the SF region at the end of the year.

[Hardingfv32]

There is a basic flaw in comparing entry fees from track to track because many times pricing is established on a broader basis....

Unless you are prepared to tell us that the Sears and Laguna rental fees have gone up substantially this season.... you are just blowing an official SFR/SCCA smoke screen.

The fact is that the Laguna fees have jumped 10% ($55) this season for a double regional. As far as the budget goes for SFR this season, they can logically expect more entries this season in general and specifically at Laguna because of the 2014 Runoffs location.

The facts are clear, this is a SFR money grab plan and simple.

Brian

[GAC]

Brian, how does a non-profit organization grab money? Where is it going? Have you contacted Michael Smith, the SFR treasurer to ask about it? You do know that as a member of the club you can contact the people setting the entry fee directly instead of endlessly making unsupported accusations on here? You were the person I was referring to in my earlier post. Do you really want to improve things, or do you have an agenda to destroy the club by falsely criticizing it? Your "new Majors fee," which was not new, was disinformation of the worst kind. Please post constructively and not destructively.

[gcoffin]

Everytime there is a scent of a "windfall" someone decides it is some how unfair. So lets examine the other side of the equation....the windfall lose. I never see anyone complaining about that.....or sending more money. Pure and simple you have to have operating cash and sometimes it gets used to cover a lose. In club racing it has been my observation when you have a lose it often takes years of "profit" to recover.

[Hardingfv32]

I have no clue why SFR needs the extra money. Just because you are a non-profit does not mean you cannot live large.

Has SFR published an explanation for the Laguna increase? Is there any reason for the lack of communication?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Everytime there is a scent of a "windfall" someone decides it is some how unfair.

If SFR is making up a shortfall in last years budget they should make it public. This would still not explain why the Laguna fees are the only ones being increased.

Brian

[GAC]

I am guessing the reason is you have not communicated with them. Have you called or emailed them? You are right; you do not have a clue. So call them instead of bashing them on here.

[greg pizzo]

I have no clue why SFR needs the extra money. Just because you are a non-profit does not mean you cannot live large.

Has SFR published an explanation for the Laguna increase? Is there any reason for the lack of communication?

Brian

Like I said vote with YOUR wallet ....if you don’t like it no one is going to twist your arm to make you show up, or call you wondering why you didn't grace us with your presence.
I happen to know that there is A LOT of $$ being spent just for this year’s events MORE than in the past years events locally so that the runoffs go off smoothly! Have ALL the preparations been finished ?? certainly not but there is a lot of folks working on it very hard, sorry no one called YOU personally to ask YOU how to run it !! they didn’t call me either .. but I know a few of the folks personally who are doing a lot to make this a great event! THE FIRST TIME, we aren't going to get 4-5 years to dial it in as in a lot of the previous host regions. Will mistakes be made ..certainly but no one is looking to pick your pocket ... if it’s too much or you don't agree ... STAY HOME or HELP out ... just complaining does NO good at all !!

[BURKY]

Maybe the fee is for this...

[Daryl DeArman]

Supply and demand....why shouldn't the fees be whatever they can charge and still fill the paddock?

Do you go to a restaurant and expect to pay the same for a filet as you do a hot dog?

The club needs to charge whatever they can and still fill the grid so that they don't have to raise rates at other lower subscribed races to remain fiscally sound. You raise rates at undersubscribed events and attendance becomes even less...in turn you raise rates at other venues even more.

[Anthony Tabacco]

Let me respond to one point in the original thread post. First, as I am sure every region does, the San Francisco Region starts the year with a clean spreadsheet and with the absolute goal of managing the club racing program so that at the end of the year we come out exactly at......$0. We have not made that goal since 2008, the year when club racers decided not to use their home mortgage to race anymore. For the past few years we have run a red ink program. That is as uncomfortable as is the fact that it cannot continue. So lets put this simply: Entry fees are set based on past attendance, run group participation (incidentally, take away either Miata OR Spec Racer Ford and club racing stops in the US forever - never mind the runoffs), available track dates, competing adjacent events, holidays, member history, your/my best guess/phases of the moon, whatever, and all of those combined, and then we arrive at total season entries. You adjust each for track rent, and presto, out pops your $55 increase. Blame Excel. Regarding the Thunderhill Major, it represents that adjustment but with the stipend to National included. It is just math, nothing personal, nobody is cheating you (I mean really, do you believe that?) and if you've still deluded yourself into believing any region isn't by nature and necessity VERY tight with a buck when it comes to managing expenses, all I can say is it's time for milk and cookies and an early bedtime.

I'd also comment that a more productive discussion might be centered on how we can prolong club racing at all.

tony

[Jerry Kehoe]

$500 plus for an entry fee for a National, Major or whatever is in the territory of a vintage race entry fee. Only difference is many of the vintage groups have a total entry of 100-150 cars versus 200-300 or more for a SCCA event. Assuming track rental fees are similar the gross dollars indicate there are some real questions out there. I don't think the vintage groups are in the business of throwing away money nor looking to score a major profit ( unless it is RA where we pay $500 entry fees so the track can charge a pile for tickets and it probably returns about $750,000 profit for the Hawk event to RA). In the past the racing revenue used to support SFR vintage program, auto cross and whatever else they run. Is this still true? If it is then they should pay their fare share of the costs with increased entry fees as well as the club racer.How does NASA exist with their lower entry fees? Seems like they are doing just fine. Why?

[Anthony Tabacco]

The short answer to the first is, in 2013, SFR hosted vintage -at Laguna Seca coincidentally- and total vintage entry was...55. The Region was able to sell run groups to BMW and (if I remember right) Porsche clubs, which brought the total gate to somewhere about 100. It was the biggest negative cash flow generator of the season, including the the annual Drivers School (the Drivers School loses money but when you look at the program at season's end it traditionally returns about $2 for every $1 in increased novice entry fees, so it is a net gain). There are no vintage events scheduled for 2014 despite how much we love the event.

The unshort answer to the second is NASA is not primarily a racing club. They derive their income from open track events and have a race program in conjunction - my deduction here- so their members have a place to graduate to and stay in the fold. Their principal competitor for business is not SCCA, it is the Open Track private operations and marque clubs. If we had entry numbers (or the business flexibility) that they do, none of us would be having this discussion; entry counts cure everything.

One other point to make would be that SF Region runs three distinctly separate Autocross programs in the San Francisco, the Fresno, and the Sacramento Chapters, and they all run in the black, with great attendance from a very un-scca demographic (as in young), and each program makes enough money to host their own awards banquets, buy trophies, etc.; racing does not subsidize anyone, nor could it. The blunt fact is, income derived from SCCA workers staffing pro events helps underwrite the club racing program, so who subsidizes whom?

SCCA Club Racers - thinking ones anyway- need to get real (and real creative) about the what the shape of the future is in a changing demographics, changing car-culture world if we want to keep racing.

tony

[Hardingfv32]

Tony... Thanks for the response.

1) I noticed the budget deficit while searching though Brd meeting minutes. Why wasn't the deficit communicated to the membership as the reason for the fee increases?

2) If 'SCCA workers staffing pro events helps underwrite the club racing program' and I assume NASA does not... This maker the difference in fee structure between the SFR and NASA look even worse!

3) How much does Thunderhill track transfer back to the SFR? The open track test fee just went up $50 this year to $300 with no 1/2 day pricing available. I am going to assume that the $50 fee is a surcharge to pay for track expansion. I lot of the membership that helped build the track are going to be retired from racing before they ever see the promised financial benefit form the track.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

Vintage events can and do make money.

VARA doesn't seem to charge over $350 for their double weekend events. They had 5 "double weekends" in 2012 and total revenue of $398K. That's about 80K a weekend in revenue average. Based on the number of entrants and the entry fees, adding in the annual membership revenues and it appears the difference is probably close to $30K per event average in corporate sponsorship revenues.

[budawe]

As I understand it, the track rentals that VARA pays are much less than the tracks to the north charge.

[Daryl DeArman]

As I understand it, the track rentals that VARA pays are much less than the tracks to the north charge.

Some maybe, but not all.

They average about $41K/weekend. I'm certain that AutoClub Speedway is more expensive than Chuckwalla because they can be. Just as Laguna is more than Buttonwillow.

I think it's convenient to blame track rental costs because it's a large single line item AND something within someone elses' control. However, I think if you look at all the costs SCCA events incur outside track rental you'll see where some signifcant cuts can be made without jeopardizing the quality or safety of the event. It's like the education system...throwing more money and people at it doesn't solve problems, just take a look at LAUSD. SCCA is the LAUSD of the West Coast racing scene.

[budawe]

"I think if you look at all the costs SCCA events incur outside track rental you'll see where some signifcant cuts can be made without jeopardizing the quality or safety of the event."

Any specifics?

[GAC]

Daryl, can you show us where the cuts can be made?

[Daryl DeArman]

Sure, give me a detailed 2013 P&L statement from SFR region and a red pen and I'll get back to you.