Formula Vee questions

[BLS]

You might want to look at your pedal arrangement closely. I modified the original to add a further forward location, then ground the pedal brackets for extra clearance for the tierods. Gained 1 - 2 inches as I recall which is quite a bit in effect.

I have also designed a system similar to the Citation bellcrank system to get all the travel available, but never built it. That would probably allow you to get everything you need and keep the original roll bar.

Of course, from your picture, you look to be a bit wider in the shoulders than me, so it might be a tight fit in that area...

[kayakanimal]

You might want to look at your pedal arrangement closely. I modified the original to add a further forward location, then ground the pedal brackets for extra clearance for the tierods. Gained 1 - 2 inches as I recall which is quite a bit in effect.

I have also designed a system similar to the Citation bellcrank system to get all the travel available, but never built it. That would probably allow you to get everything you need and keep the original roll bar.

Of course, from your picture, you look to be a bit wider in the shoulders than me, so it might be a tight fit in that area...

Now I think I understand. My guess is the previous owner added the (silver) steering extension to make it so he didn't have to turn the steering wheel as much to make the wheels turn (tight corners) (see picture). THAT makes it so I can't mount the peddle rack as far forward. Maybe I will try to remove it...realign wheels and see what happens.
Thoughts?

[BLS]

Good grief, yes you have lost what appears to be several inches... You have two extensions, one appears welded to the VW steering arm and another bolted to that.

The pedal assembly looks like the stock Zink, with a couple mods to the pedals. The clutch pedal has been cut and rebolted which is OK (perhaps to shorten it?) and it appears the throttle pedal arm has been ground down where the pedal is welded.

The 1x2 steel pedal base bolts to the side frame extensions. I only used the very last hole to move the pedal base as far forward as possible, then ground clearance for the tierods. I also bent the clutch pedal to the left, reducing the leverage effect but providing more foot room for my size 13's. I used a lot of left foot braking which you probably don't need in autocross.

If you must have the quick steer, you might want to look at modifying at the spindle end in order to gain the footroom back. Using the stock pedal assembly as far forward as possible made it possible for me to drive the car comfortably, although comfortable for a 20-25 year old and comfortable at my slightly increased age might be different

I found that I could no longer fit in the original Zink seat, hips widen with age apparently. Same weight as before just wider hip bones. But then I have the Zink in storage until I decide what to do with it, so did not deal with that problem.

[kayakanimal]

Good grief, yes you have lost what appears to be several inches... You have two extensions, one appears welded to the VW steering arm and another bolted to that.

The pedal assembly looks like the stock Zink, with a couple mods to the pedals. The clutch pedal has been cut and rebolted which is OK (perhaps to shorten it?) and it appears the throttle pedal arm has been ground down where the pedal is welded.

The 1x2 steel pedal base bolts to the side frame extensions. I only used the very last hole to move the pedal base as far forward as possible, then ground clearance for the tierods. I also bent the clutch pedal to the left, reducing the leverage effect but providing more foot room for my size 13's. I used a lot of left foot braking which you probably don't need in autocross.

If you must have the quick steer, you might want to look at modifying at the spindle end in order to gain the footroom back. Using the stock pedal assembly as far forward as possible made it possible for me to drive the car comfortably, although comfotable for a 20-25 year old and comfortable at my slightly increased age might be different

I found that I could no longer fit in the original Zink seat, hips widen with age apparently. Same weight as before just wider hip bones. But then I have the Zink in storage until I decide what to do with it, so did not deal with that problem.

I still have the seat that came with the car. I can fit the a** part fine. I am lucky...although I am about 6'4" I only have about a size 10 shoe. I don't have much time this weekend to work on the car and have a race next weekend. I will try to change it all after that. I will "cruise" down the street seeing how much removing the extra parts changes the steering. I will post more when done.

Hopefully when/if I get the peddle assembly moved and the original seat installed I won't have to change the roll bar.

Thanks for the help!

PS...I am heading toward 50 REALLY quick.

[Stan Clayton]

PS...I am heading toward 50 REALLY quick.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are headed AWAY from 50 at the same pace, so our sympathy is all that it should be: i.e., none to speak of.

[BLS]

PS...I am heading toward 50 REALLY quick.

I'm headed in some direction from Fifty...

If you fit the seat, you'll probably find enough length with the pedals moved all the way up. I do not know how much quick steering is needed for autocross, but I never had a problem racing with the standard steering arm. There are solutions at the spindle end if needed.

[kayakanimal]

Well...I moved the peddles all the way forward and I still am to tall. Guess I am going to have to rebuild the roll bar.

Or trim my legs down.

[BLS]

Did you move them PAST the original Zink mounting? That is what I had to do. Put the rearmost bolt of the 1x2 base in the last forward mounting point. Only one bolt on each side in that case. Then you have to provide clearance for the tierods.

[kayakanimal]

Did you move them PAST the original Zink mounting? That is what I had to do. Put the rearmost bolt of the 1x2 base in the last forward mounting point. Only one bolt on each side in that case. Then you have to provide clearance for the tierods.

If I move them up that far my feet will be under the tie rods.

[BLS]

You would need to use the original VW steering arm, not the extended item you have now. When I raced the Zink, I was 6'4 with 34" inseam, a fairly normal leg length for the height. Unless you are mostly legs I think you can fit with a small amount of work. But you would lose the quick steer you have now. As I said earlier, you can get the quick steer at the spindle end by going to a shorter spindle steering arm.

Or raise the roll bar. Which will likely be much more expensive and change the character of the car.

[kayakanimal]

You might want to call and find out if you have the tire designed for production cars or the Hoosier marked 20x7.5-13 designed for formula cars/sports racers that has an 8" tread on the way. I've seen this switch from GY to Hoosier sizing cause confusion in the past.

What about the 10" wide tires? Is there a "formula" tire for that size or are the all the same?

[TedV]

look at the tire spec sheet at http://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm Look for R25B, then tire size to suit gearing, tread width, suspension geometry, and then rim width. If you know the road race classes that take the cantilever tires you will see those wide tires take 5.5 to 7" wide rims. The FF rear tires are also cantilever, but have a less stiff construction compared to the ones designed for heavy Prod cars. I have seen some formula/sports racers try the cantilever over the years and the only light cars that seemed to work well on them were the Baby Grand cars on turn heavy road courses. If the track had more staights they worked better on 20.5x7-13's. The cantilever might work out ok on the Vee but I am concerned the R35 will never get any heat to work well. FF in CM usually run the 20.5x7-13 front (FC on the hoosier application list) and the 22.5x7.2-13 rear. 2 drivers in the car keep the tires warm. A single driver car is lucky to make it into trophies at nationals.

Your best bet is to see what other Vee guys are running that seems to work and start there. There was a local guy that ran one years ago on 20x9-13 fronts and 21x10-13 rears. It had too much tire. Tires never had any heat in them and lasted forever. The 21x10-13 has been discontinued a while ago. I thought I saw someone on 20x7.5-13 fronts and 20x9-13 rears but might be mistaken.

If I had the time and $$,$$$ I would love to design a Solo Vee and use all the rules no Vee has exploited fully yet. I love me some VW's. But once a Vee wins Nationals, Im not sure if the rules would change. I'm working on a KM shifter kart now, cheaper thrills. My FF is mothballed until someone makes me an offer I can't refuse.

[kayakanimal]

UPDATE

Well…been running since last spring and have learned some things.

I don’t think I could have any more fun with my clothes on!

The 35 compound front tires push. I have order some 25’s. Should have them in next week. Next race not till January.

I have been less than 1 second off FTD a few times. We have a couple of national racers in good “street” cars so I think these finishes were pretty good. Maybe better when I get the 25 compound front tires.

Engine temp has not really been a problem for the engine with no fan. Had an issue only one time when we had few racers and I had very little cooling time. I have found a fan that I might try…
http://www.spalautomotive.com/eng/pr...=VA32-A101-62A

I will keep the scoops on but will make a way to “swing” the fans in place to cool between runs.

Going to try to make my own seat this weekend before I think about “adjusting” the roll bar.

Putting 13” (diameter) rims on it has lowered the gear…almost too much. Maxes out at about 60mph. I am running either 3rd or 4th gear on all courses.

Will try to put the Weber 44 that came with the car before next race now that it has cooled off. Much nicer working on car when the garage temp is NOT over 100!

During our TLAC (Trans Louisiana Autocross Challenge) I got to race a FF, BS car and another FV. I did well against the FV but the FF got me by almost 2 seconds and the BM…let just say if he had tail lights, that would have been all I would have seen.

Again…I know I have been leaving between ½ and 1 second…maybe more on each course because of the push. Hopefully the 25 compound will help/fix that.

Have been running right at 10PSI front and rear.

[S Lathrop]

If the car pushes now, going to a softer compound at the front will not solve the problem. It may cover over the problem until you kill the front tires. Which you will do.

Get the car in balance. You might try raising the rear ride height 1/8 of an inch. You also might be sure that the front end is not binding or that it has a lot of friction. With the shocks disconnected, the front should move very freely. It should be bouncy when you push it down and release it.

Another trick to help the push would be to limit the droop of the front end. I would start with shocks that are just long enough to stop the droop at the unloaded ride height of the car. That way, when you jack the front up, the wheels do not droop further.

When you say the car pushes, does it push on corner entry, or only when you get to the middle of the corner, or only after you apply power. All three of these conditions have a slightly different solution.

I would go for the rear ride height first in solving your problem it will definitely reduce the push.

[kayakanimal]

The reason I say that is I currently have 25 compound on the rear and it works great. I have 35 on the front and it pushes.

If the car pushes now, going to a softer compound at the front will not solve the problem. It may cover over the problem until you kill the front tires. Which you will do.

Get the car in balance. You might try raising the rear ride height 1/8 of an inch. You also might be sure that the front end is not binding or that it has a lot of friction. With the shocks disconnected, the front should move very freely. It should be bouncy when you push it down and release it.

Another trick to help the push would be to limit the droop of the front end. I would start with shocks that are just long enough to stop the droop at the unloaded ride height of the car. That way, when you jack the front up, the wheels do not droop further.

When you say the car pushes, does it push on corner entry, or only when you get to the middle of the corner, or only after you apply power. All three of these conditions have a slightly different solution.

I would go for the rear ride height first in solving your problem it will definitely reduce the push.

[S Lathrop]

The reason I say that is I currently have 25 compound on the rear and it works great. I have 35 on the front and it pushes.

That would cause a push for sure. Why did you do that tire combination in the first place?

[kayakanimal]

That would cause a push for sure. Why did you do that tire combination in the first place?

When I purchased the tires used last spring that was all they had. Wanted to race on something.

Earlier in this thread I spoke about getting the car.

[jim murphy]

Not familiar with Vees - can they be corner weighed? If so, then the corner weights could be off enough to add to the push problem. BUT, until there are R25's with the same number of runs on all four tires then any further work will be frustrating (need to buy four new R25 tires). I say this because slicks used in solo have so many short runs that they dry out before they have used much tread - just the opposite of RR slicks. Thus, I have been using Formula Vee Traction Tratment (FVTT) to partially replenish the tires between each event. It is good for about 6 runs and helps the life of the slicks - a major cost savings. I have kept my tires for so long that I have been forced to buy more wheels so that I can manage my tires by the amount of tread on them. I use my best tires for NT's and my oldest tires for my local events. I still buy one new set every year for the Lincoln Nationals and then they go into my tire management process from then on. When a tire has almost no tread (thus the FVTT can no longer help) then they get tossed (about three full seasons).
I am 6'3" and have wide shoulders so I moved EVERY single bar in my F Mod F500 that was in the way along with the steering wheel (up and closer to me) and the pedals (ALL the way forward) and lowered the seat after I installed a small 2 gallon fuel tank under it (the solo rules allow basic metal tanks - no need for a BIG bladder, sold it). You MUST read the solo rules to see what you can and cannot do to your car. Like learning how the solo rules are different for the roll bars than RR is.

Jim
Been messing with F500/600's since 1982

[Lynn]

Cars with the z-bar rear suspension can be corner weighted. kayakanimal's cars is a z bar car. Those of us who have zero roll rear suspension cars cannot corner weight them.

[kayakanimal]

Cars with the z-bar rear suspension can be corner weighted. kayakanimal's cars is a z bar car. Those of us who have zero roll rear suspension cars cannot corner weight them.

Never messed with counterweights...
Front or back...about how much?
I have 4 different size ZBars. The largest one is installed now. Would a smaller one help or hurt?

[Lynn]

Not counter weights. Corner weights. Rather than me typing out a long explanation, you can Google corner weighting for articles and a you tube video or three on the subject.

Don't mess with the z bar until you get 4 new tires of the same compound on the car. In general, decreasing the rear roll stiffness will increase the understeer.

[kayakanimal]

Not counter weights. Corner weights. Rather than me typing out a long explanation, you can Google corner weighting for articles and a you tube video or three on the subject.

Don't mess with the z bar until you get 4 new tires of the same compound on the car. In general, decreasing the rear roll stiffness will increase the understeer.

Sorry. Meant corner weights. Damn iPad spell check.
I thought the biggest bar would do best but wasn't sure.
Thanks.

[kayakanimal]

Update…

I got my 7” front 25B tires.

On my first autocross race I was all over the place on the first half of the track. After my brain caught up with what was happening…the rear tires were kicking loose and the front tires were sticking like glue!

I usually have some issue with the rears sticking when it is cold. The temp was about 50ish.

They did better after a few laps. I have another race this Sunday and the forecast is 72 and sunny.

The rear tires may be heat cycled too much…may be time to replace them also. But…THE FRONT DID NOT UNDERSTEER!!! YEA!!! NO push at all!

I got 5th place out of 64 racers. Not too bad I guess.

More to come.

[jim murphy]

Update…

I got my 7” front 25B tires.

On my first autocross race I was all over the place on the first half of the track. After my brain caught up with what was happening…the rear tires were kicking loose and the front tires were sticking like glue!

I usually have some issue with the rears sticking when it is cold. The temp was about 50ish.

They did better after a few laps. I have another race this Sunday and the forecast is 72 and sunny.

The rear tires may be heat cycled too much…may be time to replace them also. But…THE FRONT DID NOT UNDERSTEER!!! YEA!!! NO push at all!

I got 5th place out of 64 racers. Not too bad I guess.

More to come.

For solo, treating the tires with Formula VEE Traction Treatment (FVTT) makes them grippy for about 6 runs then you treat again for the next event. This helps the life of the tires used in solo which dry out due to many heat cycles before 1/2 the tread is gone. The grip is never as good as sticker tires but it grips rather slides out from under you. I manage my tires (with several sets of wheels) as follows - always have stickers for Solo Nationals then they are used the next season for NT's and Divisionals, depending on the # of NT's & Divisionals they may be used as practice tires for the NT's & Divisionals in the next season, THEN they are used only in local events where they have less than 1/2 tread. Once the tread becomes too thin, the FVTT has no more rubber to make gummy, they are tossed. Thus you can get 3+ seasons out of one set of tires IF you manage them.

HTH,
Jim
Been autoxing since 1970.
#56 E Mod Yellow Jeep (400HP/1,600lbs)

[kayakanimal]

I was going to ask about tire softeners. Thanks in advance for the heads up.

For solo, treating the tires with Formula VEE Traction Treatment (FVTT) makes them grippy for about 6 runs then you treat again for the next event. This helps the life of the tires used in solo which dry out due to many heat cycles before 1/2 the tread is gone. The grip is never as good as sticker tires but it grips rather slides out from under you. I manage my tires (with several sets of wheels) as follows - always have stickers for Solo Nationals then they are used the next season for NT's and Divisionals, depending on the # of NT's & Divisionals they may be used as practice tires for the NT's & Divisionals in the next season, THEN they are used only in local events where they have less than 1/2 tread. Once the tread becomes too thin, the FVTT has no more rubber to make gummy, they are tossed. Thus you can get 3+ seasons out of one set of tires IF you manage them.

HTH,
Jim
Been autoxing since 1970.
#56 E Mod Yellow Jeep (400HP/1,600lbs)

[kayakanimal]

I see they sell by the quart and gallon? How much should I buy? I race every month.

For solo, treating the tires with Formula VEE Traction Treatment (FVTT) makes them grippy for about 6 runs then you treat again for the next event. This helps the life of the tires used in solo which dry out due to many heat cycles before 1/2 the tread is gone. The grip is never as good as sticker tires but it grips rather slides out from under you. I manage my tires (with several sets of wheels) as follows - always have stickers for Solo Nationals then they are used the next season for NT's and Divisionals, depending on the # of NT's & Divisionals they may be used as practice tires for the NT's & Divisionals in the next season, THEN they are used only in local events where they have less than 1/2 tread. Once the tread becomes too thin, the FVTT has no more rubber to make gummy, they are tossed. Thus you can get 3+ seasons out of one set of tires IF you manage them.

HTH,
Jim
Been autoxing since 1970.
#56 E Mod Yellow Jeep (400HP/1,600lbs)

[kayakanimal]

Also...how is the smell? I have heard of other products (Goat Piss) that you have to bag the tires because it smells so bad.

[jim murphy]

Also...how is the smell? I have heard of other products (Goat Piss) that you have to bag the tires because it smells so bad.

By the gallon. No smell - I use it regularly in my man cave, the basement garage.
Buy a roller paint pan, pour in less than an 1" depth (where it starts to go up the slant) and a 4" paint brush. This should be sufficient for four tires; pour the leftover back in the gallon jug - it will be black but no worry.
With the car off the floor on jack stands and the tires cleaned of rocks and rubber accumulation (sometimes needs a wire brushing), place the pan next to the tire and dip the brush so that it is full but not flowing off the brush and begin painting at the top of the tire, continue until more is needed and repeat while slowly rotating the tire, the excess will roll down the tread, not the sidewalls. You want a wet coating but not have it dripping like crazy (but as it dries it will drip some so if you are worried about the floor you may want to cover it under each tire). Contiue to paint & rotate until the whole tread is coated. Do all four tires and let dry for 12 hours. Coat in the am and the pm until 6 to 8 applications are done - stays shiny for awhile. It gets absorbed by the rubber. After the last application, let it dry for a minimum of 24 hours before lowering the car. You are now good to go run. What you get on your hands is washable but not so for the clothes so wear old clothing/shoes.

HTH,
Jim

[kayakanimal]

Thanks Jim...like I always said..."what did we do BEFORE the internet?"

By the gallon. No smell - I use it regularly in my man cave, the basement garage.
Buy a roller paint pan, pour in less than an 1" depth (where it starts to go up the slant) and a 4" paint brush. This should be sufficient for four tires; pour the leftover back in the gallon jug - it will be black but no worry.
With the car off the floor on jack stands and the tires cleaned of rocks and rubber accumulation (sometimes needs a wire brushing), place the pan next to the tire and dip the brush so that it is full but not flowing off the brush and begin painting at the top of the tire, continue until more is needed and repeat while slowly rotating the tire, the excess will roll down the tread, not the sidewalls. You want a wet coating but not have it dripping like crazy (but as it dries it will drip some so if you are worried about the floor you may want to cover it under each tire). Contiue to paint & rotate until the whole tread is coated. Do all four tires and let dry for 12 hours. Coat in the am and the pm until 6 to 8 applications are done - stays shiny for awhile. It gets absorbed by the rubber. After the last application, let it dry for a minimum of 24 hours before lowering the car. You are now good to go run. What you get on your hands is washable but not so for the clothes so wear old clothing/shoes.

HTH,
Jim

[jim murphy]

One more concern - NEVER coat a brand new sticker tire, it has a factory coating which must be scrubbed off in your first run.
If my old brain remembers anything else, I will post it here.

Jim

[kayakanimal]

GOOD to know!!!

One more concern - NEVER coat a brand new sticker tire, it has a factory coating which must be scrubbed off in your first run.
If my old brain remembers anything else, I will post it here.

Jim

[kayakanimal]

I ordered some Formula V. Should be in Friday. Not in time for Sundays race. Guess it will have to wait till march 9th race.

[jim murphy]

I ordered some Formula V. Should be in Friday. Not in time for Sundays race. Guess it will have to wait till march 9th race.

Two coatings on Friday is better than nothing.

Jim

[kayakanimal]

Well...the Tire conditioner didn't make it in. Will have to wait till next race.
But...I have been pulling it with a tow dolly...changing tires back and forth at the race. But, no more!

[BLS]

Pretty Car!

[kayakanimal]

And approx how long will the 6-8 applications last?

By the gallon. No smell - I use it regularly in my man cave, the basement garage.
Buy a roller paint pan, pour in less than an 1" depth (where it starts to go up the slant) and a 4" paint brush. This should be sufficient for four tires; pour the leftover back in the gallon jug - it will be black but no worry.
With the car off the floor on jack stands and the tires cleaned of rocks and rubber accumulation (sometimes needs a wire brushing), place the pan next to the tire and dip the brush so that it is full but not flowing off the brush and begin painting at the top of the tire, continue until more is needed and repeat while slowly rotating the tire, the excess will roll down the tread, not the sidewalls. You want a wet coating but not have it dripping like crazy (but as it dries it will drip some so if you are worried about the floor you may want to cover it under each tire). Contiue to paint & rotate until the whole tread is coated. Do all four tires and let dry for 12 hours. Coat in the am and the pm until 6 to 8 applications are done - stays shiny for awhile. It gets absorbed by the rubber. After the last application, let it dry for a minimum of 24 hours before lowering the car. You are now good to go run. What you get on your hands is washable but not so for the clothes so wear old clothing/shoes.

HTH,
Jim

[jim murphy]

And approx how long will the 6-8 applications last?

About 6 runs in one session depending on how much tread there is; it dries out so re-application is a must between events.
Beats the alternative of buying new tires. Only time to buy new is when you go to the Solo Nationals, then they get used the following year at NT's and Divisionals.
Just packed up for our first local event (Atlanta) tomorrow. With my oldest set of tires (and least tread) all treated and ready to go. My best two sets will be for the Dixie NT mid-March (older of the two used for Friday practice and the better ones for competition). Always have spares for out of town events.
Solo/autox is ALL about TIRE GRIP - no grip, you might as well pack up and go home.

Jim

[kayakanimal]

Racing on Sunday...Been sick this week...best laid plans of mice and men...
Just put 1 coat on. Will put another coat on in the morning. Leaves 24 hour drying time.

Does it hurt to put it on like 2-3 weeks before racing?

[jim murphy]

Racing on Sunday...Been sick this week...best laid plans of mice and men...
Just put 1 coat on. Will put another coat on in the morning. Leaves 24 hour drying time.

Does it hurt to put it on like 2-3 weeks before racing?

It does not hurt - it just has to stay in a cool, dark area to minimize evaporation. It is still better to start coating on Monday before a Sunday event. This will happen when the season is in full swing. Remember to clean the fully inflated tires (car on jacks) before coating - the goal is to expose all the rubber to be coated. I just spent an hour picking (a sharp screwdriver works well) the smallest rocks out of my tires. I am coating two sets for the Dixie NT - this week are the Sat/Sun competition tires (my best tires) and on Sunday, I will mount my 2nd best tires for coating for Friday practice. Thus, the competition tires will sit for a week before being loaded into the trailer Thursday afternoon for Friday early am departure and the practice tires stay on the car for Friday practice. Hopefully, you will see why I have so many sets of mounted tires - tire grip management is the prime directive, everything else is secondary.

Jim

[kayakanimal]

Well...with just the 2 coatings it was GREAT! Got 3rd place (to 2 national drivers in FAST cars). Tires were VERY predictable. Can't wait till next race!
Thanks for all the info everybody!