Formula Atlantic

[Brett Lane]

There are 11 Atlantics registered at PBIR. More than any other open wheel class by a long shot.

Merry Christmas everyone!

[Fred Michael]

The F and K series engines are almost the same size.

[allof6]

The F series engine is taller than the K series for these applications the engine builders prefer the K series with the shorter block deck height to help control the piston speed and the rod angles. This is why you see the K series favored.

[Stan Clayton]

The F and K series engines are almost the same size.

I thought the only significant difference is that the F-series is for FWD cars, while the K-series is for RWD cars. Not so?

[Jnovak]

Will these fit in existing chassises such as the 014 & 016 with modifications?

I do not know Stan, I am sure some of them can be made to fit. I would do it if we had access to a top chassis.

Here are some more. All produce around 350 hp at fairly low rpm. Admittedly on alcohol but even with gas the would be about 10% less.

Chevy. http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...der_heads.html

Toyota
http://www.edpink.com
Ed Pink Racing Engines

Toyota Standard Specification*
Max Engine Speed - 8,600 rpm
Full Round Piston, DLC Pins, Standard Rings
Proven EPR Valve Spring
MSD Midget Ignition
Barnes Gear Type Oil Pump
KSE HPD Water Pump
Dan Olsen Oil Pan
XRP SS Hoses
Kinsler Standard HS Valve
No Oil and Fuel Filters
No Engine Harness
Fabricated Valve Cover
No Oil Pump Belt Cover
PRICE: $31,999


Chrysler
http://www.gaerteengines.com

Chevy
http://www.fontana-automotive.com

Ford, basically 2.3 to 2.6 l engines with purpose castings.
http://www.esslingeracing.com

http://www.esslingeracing.com/catalog/page32.pdf

"I know anyone can buy a CORR Esslinger Ford for $20,500 off the dyno ready to race carbs to ignitiion. That seems somewhat reasonable and this is why most privateer racers will choose this package over the Nissan or Toyota. That said the Nissan's of Sly, Pink, and the toyotas of Kincaid, Brandt, Federico and a few others have shown to be very competitive."
But most buy the Ford because the parts are readily available and there are more than a handfull of builders capable of building them.

I know there are still more. It seems to me that the midget engine rules are capable of putting out well over 300hp for reasonable $$$. Why reinvent the rules when there is a mature technology that works.

I will try to find some additional solid details for several motors.

[Fred Michael]

I thought the only significant difference is that the F-series is for FWD cars, while the K-series is for RWD cars. Not so?

Essentially yes at least in physical size.

[jstowe]

Last time I checked, most midget engines were made from bespoke castings. Midget engines are sort of "one half of a cup motor". They tend to have pretty large bores. I believe that crossflow is about 2.7 liters, and noncrossflow is 3.0 displacement. Although they are pushrod, they often have quite good porting. Alcohol-based fuel injection is less fussy than gas. Many of them are designed for layover installation, and I would guess they are somewhat longer than 2-liter OHC.

[Jnovak]

Yes, most of them have purpose built castings. However the total costs range between $20K and $30K. The overhead cam 4 valve motors are max 2400cc and others are generally 2700cc. Some sanctioning bodies allow larger displacements. Lots of power for the $$.

[allof6]

Up untill recently the formula for the midget engine was
DOHC =120 cubic inch
SOHC=was around 140cubic inch
Pushrod engine= 166cubici inch

Now you could run the cast iron Block with Aluminum head for an increase in cubic inches as well as all cast iron like the Chevy II.

Examples of the engines were:
DOHC=Cosworth
SOHC=Esslinger /pinto engine
Pushrod= Chevy, Toyota, Ford, Later Pontiac, Buick, Mopar, Fontana etc. These were typically a V8 head on a purpose built Block. Now the VW/Autocraft aircooled morphed into a 166ci air cooled pancake and was successful on the short tracks but lacked what was needed on the medium and up tracks.

Now USAC has allowed some CI inch increase on some recent engines including the Honda but I have not read the rules in a couple years to see what the stipulations are for this increase.

Gearte was the builder of choice for many years then Ed Pink got involved with the Yates/ Ford and Toyota as well as Brayton and you soon saw engine cost well into to 40k plus and we even saw hp numbers well over 375 and some claimed 390. Now the with the popularity of Midget racing with ESPN Thursday night Thunder and the increased TV coverage contributed to the escalating costs and the demise of what was some fabulous racing.

On a side note Honda has one of if not the strongest production block and crank assembly in the industry and require no special replacement parts in this area. There are a few companies that specialize in race prepping these blocks for a very reasonable price. You could build a K20 race ready for under 17K at 275 to 300 hp and not rev the snot out of it.

[Jnovak]

Up untill recently the formula for the midget engine was
DOHC =120 cubic inch
SOHC=was around 140cubic inch
Pushrod engine= 166cubici inch

Now you could run the cast iron Block with Aluminum head for an increase in cubic inches as well as all cast iron like the Chevy II.

Examples of the engines were:
DOHC=Cosworth
SOHC=Esslinger /pinto engine
Pushrod= Chevy, Toyota, Ford, Later Pontiac, Buick, Mopar, Fontana etc. These were typically a V8 head on a purpose built Block. Now the VW/Autocraft aircooled morphed into a 166ci air cooled pancake and was successful on the short tracks but lacked what was needed on the medium and up tracks.

Now USAC has allowed some CI inch increase on some recent engines including the Honda but I have not read the rules in a couple years to see what the stipulations are for this increase.

Gearte was the builder of choice for many years then Ed Pink got involved with the Yates/ Ford and Toyota as well as Brayton and you soon saw engine cost well into to 40k plus and we even saw hp numbers well over 375 and some claimed 390. Now the with the popularity of Midget racing with ESPN Thursday night Thunder and the increased TV coverage contributed to the escalating costs and the demise of what was some fabulous racing.

On a side note Honda has one of if not the strongest production block and crank assembly in the industry and require no special replacement parts in this area. There are a few companies that specialize in race prepping these blocks for a very reasonable price. You could build a K20 race ready for under 17K at 275 to 300 hp and not rev the snot out of it.

Exactly. If our target is 300+hp then the top midget motors will be detuned to make the target. Thus the costs will go down as well as providing an increase in longevity.
On another note. These engines weigh 210 lbs to 230 lbs.

[allof6]

So I just got done reading the updated engine rules for Atlantic and all the restrictions related to the K20 engine and I am amazed by those rules and the lack of any ingenuity in motorsports we have now days.

[Jnovak]

So I just got done reading the updated engine rules for Atlantic and all the restrictions related to the K20 engine and I am amazed by those rules and the lack of any ingenuity in motorsports we have now days.

Of course if the direction of Atlantic is ever going to change there will have to be some rather big changes to the rules. IMO the chassis rules could be very similar so that existing cars could continue to race. There is a very big need to change the engine rules if the FA class is to ever regain its former position in the racing world.

I think that engine reliability and hp need to improve while reducing the costs to compete.

Perhaps a target might be something like 320hp and 1280lbs min weight.

5 speed gearboxes with 250 ft-lbs torque will get the job done.

We would need at least 3 different engine manufacturers to keep costs low. I am even ok with alcohol as fuel because the fuel costs with be cut by over 50% from the current required race fuels.

Certainly not an easy task but surely it is doable if the FA community is ready for change.

[Jimmy Simpson]

Exactly. If our target is 300+hp then the top midget motors will be detuned to make the target. Thus the costs will go down as well as providing an increase in longevity.
On another note. These engines weigh 210 lbs to 230 lbs.

The midget engines may be too robust for these 300 horsepower goals. Even detuned they are still true racing engines vs. the current Atlantic street car engine variations. The midget cranks seem to weigh almost double that of the 4AG cranks and have very bad harmonics. None of the midget engines like sustained high RPM. We ran the bigger Esslinger (SOHC) for years and currently run the big Fontana (pushrod) and every trip to Iowa or Milwaukee was a hope and prayer that the pistons would stay in the block. Those engines aren't made to be on the throttle for long periods of time and blow up far more often than Atlantic engines even on the little 1/4 mile tracks at low RPM. The argument of "smaller cam with less compression" could be made, but even the most mild midget engines are still far larger and more aggressive than the current Atlantic engines. The valves,ports, and cams are massive, much heavier valve springs, 2.7 to over 3 liters, and they idle like a dragster. The midget engines were such a nightmare that we bought an Atlantic haha!

[jstowe]

It is worth making a point here: for any given level of power-to-displacement, the more that is gained through better design and architecture, the less mechanical stress will be involved. This is one reason I have been advocating purpose-designed heads for the class.

One potential way to resolve the dilemma for Toyota-based engines would be to design a first-class head to relace the existing one. Such a design would include an advanced porting system, generous water jackets, improved stiffnes between cylinders, additional material where needed around valve seats, etc.

Bore and stroke are already free, and it is possible to go to 92 mm with a well- reinforced head. While this sounds insignificant, A little investigation will reveal just how much can be gained by 3mm less stroke: the rod ratio gets better, the safe limit goes up about 500 RPM, the journal overlap area increases by more than a third. Specifically-designed replacement blocks would weigh much less and be considerably stiffer than the originals, especially if the sump pan is designed as a matched component. A requirement would be that the head, pan, and block would have to use the same basic bolt and flange dimensions as the orignials for the major interfaces, so that they could be substituted individually as replacement parts. Builders could then upgrade components as appropriate during rebuilds. This protects the investment of the current competitors, but also allows for a substantial upgrade in power and reliability over time, enough so that this "Toyota-Plus" engine becomes a good going-forward package that new chassis could be designed around.

Done well, very-driveable 300+ bhp motors with good rebuild intervals could be developed. While this is obviously not as much as a two liter, or even a purpose designed short-stroke 1600, it would get the job done, and still preserve the special character of the class.

Although it is a bit aged, the 4AGE is a fairly compact unit. Its wide valve angle does spread out the head a bit, but this enhances its stiffness at its mounting points to the chassis. A really good combustion chamber and piston crown design can overcome the problems that wide included valve angles entail at modern compression ratios.

Obviously, since I am in the business of doing this kind of work, the reader should take that into account, but I think the major points stated here are valid.

[jstowe]

Obviously, you can't get 92 mm from a 4AGE: I meant 83mm! This gives a bore and stroke of 83 by 74. The rest is accurate.