tire expense?

[alangbaker]

I agree that a spec tire that isn't a lot cheaper won't do much good. Why not American Racers? I have heard they are dramatically cheaper, last significantly longer, and the west coast guys seem to like them.
Reid: I love this idea! :"Repave the tracks with rubber and run concrete tires."

Up here in BC, we've decided as a group to run the American Racers.

I've been told that the two sets I've bought ($500 a set) should be enough for my entire season. As the year progresses, I'll try to report back with more about how that works out.

[swiftdrivr]

Please do report back. As mostly I am running alone, I don't need expensive rubber, and I have found the Hoosier 45s are a blast to drive. Harder tires may be more fun?

[racerdad2]

A little slippin' is fun & ez on the car & driver. And to the unknowning spectator, looks very fast

[beachguy12]

Up here in BC, we've decided as a group to run the American Racers.

I've been told that the two sets I've bought ($500 a set) should be enough for my entire season. As the year progresses, I'll try to report back with more about how that works out.

First off, I have a tight budget and run a garage built Kent with 22 hours on it. That said, with 15 heat cycles on my AR's I was running 1:58's at Auto Club Speedway's 2.88 mile 'Roval' placing 11 of 16 on tires I bought in May of 2012.

[CF56]

I enjoy running on the CF spec Hoosier R60's and just bought my first tires of 2013 a week ago.

[problemchild]

As I think about preparing for the Runoffs, I am forced to plan for the use of skinny small rears. Rear tires only good for one session, or less.

If we cannot get a spec tire approved, let's at least get spec tire sizes approved. If people want to change tires every session for the extra .05% of performance, let them, but changing every session because they are worn out, as it is now, is stupid.
This rear tire size charade is not doing anything positive for the class!

[mblanc]

Don't like a small tire? don't run it.........

Didn't seem to slow Treadway down,

FF has NEVER had tire sizes spec'd. See the 1969? rules printed in the FF40th program. Even Europes conservative Classic Formula Ford series runs a 7" rear tire.

The size rule just doesn't make sense, especially when most of the recent National Champs have run varying sizes. A significant percentage of the top 10 the last several years have used varying tire sizes. Trap speed data from Road America Runoffs doesn't seem to show a corelation between tire size and trap speed. And FF history doesn't support this idea.

Why try to exclude the significant number of people that have worked on developing cars around a free tire size.

Why ADD a rule that hasn't been included in FF historically?

Besides, after September this year, the long straights of RA go away, and so too the small tires.......?

Aren't we supposed to be discussing/arguing about alternate engines and spec tires in the winter when the snow is flying like most years? I'll get back to you on this in December

[marshall9]

As I think about preparing for the Runoffs, I am forced to plan for the use of skinny small rears. Rear tires only good for one session, or less.

If we cannot get a spec tire approved, let's at least get spec tire sizes approved. If people want to change tires every session for the extra .05% of performance, let them, but changing every session because they are worn out, as it is now, is stupid.
This rear tire size charade is not doing anything positive for the class!

[problemchild]

Why try to exclude the significant number of people that have worked on developing cars around a free tire size.

The car that won the June Sprints on small rears, is the same car that finished 3rd at a recent Mid-Ohio F1600 Pro race (within 1 sec of winning) on big spec rears. Different track. Different tires. Same tire pressures, same cambers, same toes, same springs, same ARBs, same shock valving (almost same settings), same rear ride height, slightly different front ride height. The small rears are at their best for 1/2 session, usable for a 2nd session (moved to front), then junk. The big rears are at their best for 1 session, really good for 2 more sessions, OK for 2 more, and servicable for a bunch more.

[swiftdrivr]

So, how did the American Racers work out?
Anybody know about the tires used by the pro series out west, that look like intermediates? (i have heard they are really slow, but if everyone is on the same, does it matter?) Fun? Long lasting?

[alangbaker]

So, how did the American Racers work out?
Anybody know about the tires used by the pro series out west, that look like intermediates? (i have heard they are really slow, but if everyone is on the same, does it matter?) Fun? Long lasting?

I ended up running about one half of a full season on one set of my American Racers. In all, about 8 20-25 races with an equal amount of practice and qualifying time. Perhaps a little less than 8 hours total time on slicks with some sessions held in the wet.

And while I can't speak with certainty (because I'm still learning the car and not yet driving it to its full potential), I'd say that in my final race weekend in September on the set I first had mounted back in May the tires still had plenty of grip.

I know that I'll use them for at least one more event next year before I consider shifting to new rubber.

[swiftdrivr]

Hey, thanks for the feedback. I have a friend in the area, and we may run them at our local races, and save money for the races with bigger fields. Anyone know if they require different springs? Setup adjustments?

[Tom Duncan]

In my experience with AR133s on a 'modern' car (98 VD) they really don't like the early/high nose of a Penske shock with a VDP piston setup (or any other valving/piston combo that delivers an initial high resistance to compression). The high nose is designed to quickly heat up the tread of a medium to soft compound. When used with the AR133 the resistance overwhelms the relatively harder compound, the tire sliding before there is enough heat buildup to create grip. The result is a nervous car in corners, bopping about as the compound catches and releases. Fun but not as fast as the car could be. Stick with linear/linear pistons and the AR's work fine.

VDP pistons were tried on a Crossle 30 something and the result was the same so the above is not exclusive to a push-rod or rocker car.

I didn't get past the VDP piston setup so I don't know about springs.

Tom Duncan

[Tom Valet]

So, how did the American Racers work out?
Anybody know about the tires used by the pro series out west, that look like intermediates? (i have heard they are really slow, but if everyone is on the same, does it matter?) Fun? Long lasting?

Jim, the West coast Pro series runs the Toyo Proxes, the same tire used in the Canadian F1600 series. Talking with the Canada guys recently, they love the tires. They run an entire weekend on one set, practice sessions, qualifying sessions and races. And they use the same tires as their rains. So they are able to use one set of tires, and only need to have one set of rims, for an entire race weekend.

Oh, the best part? The tires cost around $650 a set.

A set of Hoosiers now costs $1,000. More for the Pro tires, which will now cost you between $2,500 and $3,000 a weekend just for tires.

Are the toyos slower? Sure. Does it affect the racing? Not a bit. Every FF series in the world except for SCCA runs a treaded tire similar to the Toyo.

People opposed to a spec or treaded tire here in the US are nuts.

[Daryl DeArman]

nuts...or get free tires.

[Tom Valet]

nuts...or get free tires.

Agreed Daryl, but with no competition between manufacturers now that Goodyear has left the scene I doubt anyone is getting free tires.

[swiftdrivr]

Tom, thanks for the info and insite. One set of tires a year sounds really appealing to me. I will see if the SE Region guys will go for it.

[BLS]

One set of tires a year sounds really appealing to me.

They run an entire weekend on one set, practice sessions, qualifying sessions and races.

I read the comment as one set per weekend, not per year. Maybe I missed something...

[Bob Wright]

A little clarification- The F1600 Series has a 6 tire rule for qualifying and both races. While you can spend whatever you want on tires, you can only use 6 once qualifying starts. Many teams use the previous race tires for practice, then stickers for Q1 forward. If the tires are $1000 a set, then it can be as little as $1,500 a weekend, not $2,500 to $3,000 alluded to above.

[problemchild]

I read the comment as one set per weekend, not per year. Maybe I missed something...

We have run about 10 weekends on Toyos and about 15 on F1600 pro tires in 2 years . We got more efficient use of both tire types than Tom's info above, but the net conclusion was about the same. The net cost of the Toyos was about 25-30% of the F1600 tires or about 8-10% of the cost of short 35As on all 4 corners. In all cases, I felt the same drivers and teams would occupy the same places on the grid sheet.

We ran new Toyos back to back with year old scrubbed Toyos with identical performance and wear. We would easily get 2 test days (5 X 35min sessions) and two race weekends on a set at Mosport. It is definitely preferable to have 8 or 10 mounted to keep similar wear tires on the car (rotation) and have deeper ones for certain weather conditions. Other slower tracks would have more wear, but nothing more than a set/weekend. Keep in mind that this was on a top-5 car. Mid-fielders were getting much more life and back-markers more again. I certainly think you could run a front-running car for a bunch of races for a net cost of $3-400 per weekend.

The drivers seem to really like the F1600 tires and they provide a good balance between performance, wear, competitiveness, and cost. Open tires, particularly open tire sizes, contribute absolutely nothing positive to FF racing.

[Bob Wright]

One more point; For the F1600 Pro Series (and F2000 and Atlantic), Hoosier is our great long term partner so there's really no discussion about other options.

[Tom Duncan]

Surprising cutting tire costs by 90% is of little interest.

I can see one point of resistance to the Toyo's being the lap times will put them right into the faster (or maybe even not-so-fast) Club Fords.

Good point about Hoosier, they have been supportive.

Tom

[TimH]

In the EFF group we've found both the Toyos and Yokohamas do go off when the tread has worn almost completely away - it seems there's a harder compound deep into the carcass. Otherwise, the number of heat cycles does not seem to matter.

And, yes, a modern chassis has only a little advantage over the old ones when everyone is under-tired. That's a feature, not a bug.

[swiftdrivr]

Reading too fast while I had a down second at work. Still looks like savings, but not as extreme. Anyone know if you need different springs to run the Toyos? I will use Hoosiers for the Pro race, of course, and maybe the SIC if others won't go for the Toyos, but don't really want to have to change springs each weekend.

[marshall9]

Tim,
You obviously have more experience with the Yokos than I, as I haven't run on them yet.I will this weekend ! I asked Brian today about this very issue today when I paid him for my new ones, and he told me that they will start to go away from heat cycling long before the tread is worn. It's not, according to him a harder compound lower in the tread, it's from heat cycles, just like a slick, but happens after many more cycles than a slick. So, as tread is deeper, you could run x number of heat cycles, distance being of no significance. Say it's, in our case 4 weekends of 12 sessions per weekend. Wouldn't matter if the session length was 1 hour, or 10 minutes, each is a heat cycle, until the tire is to the end of it's ultimate adhesion level. That means that shaving them to 1/10th of remaining tread, thereby creating a "Near" slick, larger contact patch, with 100% adhesion compound left ie: more rubber on the ground would be beneficial. I don't think that any of us would do this, or if the group would allow it, but if they did, we would be back to the same place that those on slicks are, as we would only get maybe 4-6 sessions out of the tires, prior to zero tread life at 730.00 per set.....might as well run soft slicks then, but it would cost 30% less at 1000 per set for Hoosiers, and then, out goes the tire equalizing the cars theory, and those with older cars, and poorer aero wouldn't have a chance....I am not for that, just saying...it is a double edged sword. Shaving should not be allowed, hard to enforce, because you can shave a tire, run it and then not be able to tell if the tire is just used and older by tread depth or if it has one session .. Our series is unique, as we are all wanting tire, legal engines and to some extent gearing parity, and make it a driver's series, but there are ways within our unwritten rules, to gain advantage. As we grow, we may need to put some things on paper, because we are already attracting guys/gals that travel some distance to join us to run in 16-20 FF car fields. When that happens, and fields grow, it won't be long before someone wants it bad enough to cross the line of a handshake, and be able to buy a trophy.
Marshall

[marshall9]

Reading too fast while I had a down second at work. Still looks like savings, but not as extreme. Anyone know if you need different springs to run the Toyos? I will use Hoosiers for the Pro race, of course, and maybe the SIC if others won't go for the Toyos, but don't really want to have to change springs each weekend.

Yes. Carroll Smith suggests that the cars should be balanced with spring rates, rather than ARB adjustments. To run up front, you will need different springs.......IMO

[DaveW]

Marshall9, et al,

Be aware that as the tread wears, or after it has been shaved, the rubber begins to lose its ability to generate heat due to the smaller depth (volume) of rubber being flexed. There is a very definite compromise between getting the tread stiffer and more responsive by shaving and not being able to generate enough temperature to get the compound to grip. That is what you feel when the tire "goes away" after many heat cycles, even if the compound, itself, is not chemically deteriorating. If the compound hardens or loses its volatiles from heat cycling, that makes the deterioration in grip even quicker.

Exactly where in tread depth and age that crossover occurs depends on the tread compound, the carcass construction, the car setup and weight, etc. It is, in practice, IMO, able to be determined only by experimentation.

[marshall9]

Marshall9, et al,

Be aware that as the tread wears, or after it has been shaved, the rubber begins to lose its ability to generate heat due to the smaller depth (volume) of rubber being flexed. There is a very definite compromise between getting the tread stiffer and more responsive by shaving and not being able to generate enough temperature to get the compound to grip. That is what you feel when the tire "goes away" after many heat cycles, even if the compound, itself, is not chemically deteriorating. If the compound hardens or loses its volatiles from heat cycling, that makes the deterioration in grip even quicker.

Exactly where in tread depth and age that crossover occurs depends on the tread compound, the carcass construction, the car setup and weight, etc. It is, in practice, IMO, able to be determined only by experimentation.

Yup, and thanks for chiming in. You are the man. My point is that what I mentioned, and what you added costs money... the guys that have more money can afford to practice more, and the optimum heat/adhesion level comes sooner the faster you are, with higher slip angles, threshold braking, etc., hence the treaded/spec tire solution to the tire cost problem isn't as simple as we debate it to be every winter....Regards to you and yours Dave.

[Tom Valet]

A little clarification- The F1600 Series has a 6 tire rule for qualifying and both races. While you can spend whatever you want on tires, you can only use 6 once qualifying starts. Many teams use the previous race tires for practice, then stickers for Q1 forward. If the tires are $1000 a set, then it can be as little as $1,500 a weekend, not $2,500 to $3,000 alluded to above.

Sure Bob, if you give up some competitiveness, and either run your race tires in practice or skip practice, you could get away with spending only $1,500 per weekend. But to be competitive in the Pro series, when we ran in 2011 we bought 3 sets of tires per weekend, for test days, practice sessions and then the qualies and race. One set of Toyos at half the cost would get you through the same amount of track time.

One more point; For the F1600 Pro Series (and F2000 and Atlantic), Hoosier is our great long term partner so there's really no discussion about other options.

Please dont misunderstand my comments. I love Hoosier and the tires they make and of course we love Mike Rand, Bob Wright and the Pro Series. The Hoosier F1600 tires and the Pro Series are the best thing to happen to FF in decades.

What I HATE WITH CAPITAL LETTERS, is the unnecessary and astronomical cost of tires in a class that is supposed to be entry level and low cost, especially when the cost is for something that gets used up and thrown away in one weekend.

I have had many conversations with Bruce Foss at Hoosier about tire costs. They will make any tire competitors want. There are ways to reduce the cost of FF tires. Get rid of the cantilever and you save something like $40 or $50 a tire in construction costs (i forget exactly what Bruce said the extra cost to make the cantilever is, but it is a lot).

The R60 CF tires sell for $680 a set. Different construction, different materials, but still they can make less expensive tires.

What would a set of Hoosier treaded tires that are similar to the Toyos cost? Why not ask Hoosier to make such a tire?

Tires that cost $1000 a set may deliver great performance, but they are keeping people away from the track. That is the bottom line and it is something that can fairly easily be remedied.

Tom

[TimH]

I asked Brian today about this very issue today when I paid him for my new ones, and he told me that they will start to go away from heat cycling long before the tread is worn. ..
..When that happens, and fields grow, it won't be long before someone wants it bad enough to cross the line of a handshake, and be able to buy a trophy.
Marshall

Well, Brian would probably know. I guess it's just coincidence that several of us heat-cycled out at about the same time the tread went away (say 6-8 weekends/20-30 hours/60-100 cycles). Our tracks are fairly abrasive, so the tread does disappear that quickly (or some may say that slowly). Only at that point does the difference become obvious, though maybe there's something subtle we missed.

As for somebody buying an advantage, I say he's welcome to it. Jens will probably still be faster, Will Tait could always show up to embarrass them both, and Jerod or Ken will still win the season championship on appearance points. I'll have plenty of fun back in the pack. And until Dennis brings out his Merlyn I'm the prettiest.

[marshall9]

Well, Brian would probably know. I guess it's just coincidence that several of us heat-cycled out at about the same time the tread went away (say 6-8 weekends/20-30 hours/60-100 cycles). Our tracks are fairly abrasive, so the tread does disappear that quickly (or some may say that slowly). Only at that point does the difference become obvious, though maybe there's something subtle we missed.

As for somebody buying an advantage, I say he's welcome to it. Jens will probably still be faster, Will Tait could always show up to embarrass them both, and Jerod or Ken will still win the season championship on appearance points. I'll have plenty of fun back in the pack. And until Dennis brings out his Merlyn I'm the prettiest.

Point taken.
Will has plenty of money, and if a theoretical Schumacher junior shows up and beats him often, he will realize that he has a competitor at his driving level, and MAY spend the money to stay up front finding the optimum window of the tires de jour. Will's DB6 is highly developed and a 40K plus car, not that he couldn't beat me if we traded cars, he is good. Treads will not equalize or allow slow guys to run up front, no matter what. Treads do take away technology and aero creep on the short tracks that we run, equipment wise. I'm sure Mario Andretti could lap us with a plug wire disconnected, lol. Treaded tyres cut costs and increase fields, allowing more to be able to campaign their cars more often, and that is what we want.

I agree that you have a beautiful car !

[Tom Valet]

Here is another way to cut tire cost, at least for the Pro Series: reduce the tire rule from 6 tires to 4 tires per weekend. You just cut competitors race tire budgets by 50% with virtually zero effect on performance and no effect on competitiveness.