Does it ever stop raining ?you guys do have it good !
Re: SCCA driver licensing is no simple task
Does it ever stop raining ?
"An analog man living in a digital world"
There have been 13 Icscc races this year over 18 days and I believe there have only been two half days of rain, 1 at orp and one at Portland iirc. Some years there are more but this is about typical for the summer months. We own rain tires but they've never been on the car.
Re: SCCA driver licensing is no simple task
That's awesome ! I've got a lot of towing ahead of me in Mn. Seriously considering relocating to feed my addiction
"An analog man living in a digital world"
If the old method is not working (and I instructed at Lime Rock just a few years ago...) then we might have to look at something else.
With many indoor karting facilities (and outdoor also) I am sure that they would be willing to host an SCCA beginners night - you can learn about flags, race etiquette etc in a night. As far as getting out on the track, you could run schools with time trial events, even races if needed. If we need to run "schools" on normal track open practice days (working with the tracks - they normally require a license, but that used to be the point of an open practice day to learn how to drive.....)
By the time most drivers come to a school, they have done time trials, virtual racing, karting, etc.
BTW - On track in Wallingford CT now has an outdoor track - Summit is advertising their 70 mph karts, Endurance Karting runs at Lime Rock on the autocross track - there has got to be some way we can work this into a school...
With a new track at Thompson next year - that should open up some competition on track prices. The only thing better would be a true club owned track.
ChrisZ
Russ,
I instructed at LRP in June 2009 in the Citation FB. There were only about 4-5 students in the group. I think that was the last open wheel LRP school that NER put on. The last time I instructed was in 2010 at NHMS with a group of about 6-7 I think... Doug Hertz came out of that group, and he has come a long way in his FM and is now joining FB. So successes are there, but lately few and far between.
if you are near the border just start out with the CASC
Rain used to be a big deal in the Northwest. But over the past 20 years it has slowed down a lot. The comment above is about right.. very rare that it actually rains for a race.Originally Posted by racerdad2
Does it ever stop raining ?
In three years we had rains on our FC car ONCE...LOL in Jeff's first race as a novice. Really had to convince him that racing in the rain wasn't a terrible thing.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Re: SCCA driver licensing is no simple task
Amazing how pre-conceived notions can stick in one's mind...
Back on topic... We are fortunate to have a great SCCA school at BHF each Spring in April, IF it ain't snowing
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Perspective from a noob novice FV
As a noob and a novice(I spent this past summer flagging and crewing to decide what class I want to run) I am faced with the task of deciding which club to run in my new FV. After working races with three clubs here in Seattle (SCCA, SOVREN, IRDC) I found it easiest to get on the track with SCCA at a PDX event and club trials - using my closed wheel street car. But I've always known I was going OW, and decided on FV for various reasons, not all financial, because fun and just driving is a big part of my equation, and I have much, much to learn about driving.
Next I spent time talking and researching to understand which club to do driver's school/novice racing with and it appears my best choice is IRDC because that is the club with the best description of the process (including a detailed Novice handbook and log). All three clubs have FV packs running with some intermix between the clubs.
The best info I've received so far was from attending IRDC club meetings and from another FV novice (last year) who just went through the process and has tried to herd us three new FV novices that will be going through the same process next spring. (So that's four new FV drivers total since this past season in the PNW)
SOVREN novice process looks very straightforward, but I did not choose vintage FV, so that's out. They also have a decent pack of FV's that would be great fun to learn from and were very accomodating as I asked many questions trying to understand/decide.
SCCA new driver process appears to be canted a bit towards closed wheel up here, but I shall have to discuss with their licensing director to get a proper understanding of the OW program, if any.
In the meantime, I have plenty of time to decide and prepare, but from where I sit now, IRDC (a division of ICSCC) has made it the easiest (perhaps least expensive?) to understand and plan for.
Jim
I think you hit the nail on the head Jim. I think the ICSCC license does take a little bit more effort to get but is cheaper, however since you have already been manning flagging stations your part way there already. All but one of the the open wheel novices this year I believe have been FV's so there should be a decent amount running next year, plus FV runs with Novice open wheel anyway so you should have some good fun. There are probably more FV's in the area then any other formula class but getting them to all show up at the same time is a different story (CF and FC are also well populated, and generally a bunch show up at the ICSCC races). The bright side of the ICSCC license is that it is accepted at SCCA events as well, and ICSCC race experience can be used to meet licensing requirements from just about every other sanctioning body (I don't know of any that don't accept). Bonus: ICSCC is the only sanctioning body in the area that runs at all the currently operating tracks and entry fees are almost always cheaper (exception being mission? not sure, very reasonable either way). If you play your cards right and upgrade to an area license at Spokane, or have your first upgrade race there it is dirt cheap, something like under $200 bucks for 3 quali and 3 races. Feel free to stop by at any of the events next year to pick any open-wheelers brain, our doors are always open.
Re: SCCA driver licensing is no simple task
ICSCC ROCKS ! Getting started in racing is the ez part. It's the quitting that's hard...
"An analog man living in a digital world"
Huhhh??
Jim, no doubt SOVREN is a great club to race with up here if you're in to vintage. Those guys race as hard as any club. BUT, they only run at Pacific, Portland and for the first time last year, Spokane. Very limited venues and very limited number of races per year. They are more of a charity activity then really hard core racers. I do love them though
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Trailer doors...
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
Indeed, a very friendly bunch of vintage FV racers in SOVREN who spent a lot of time answering my questions; also quite a few of the guys racing SCCA were tolerant of my hanging around.Huhhh??
Jim, no doubt SOVREN is a great club to race with up here if you're in to vintage. Those guys race as hard as any club. BUT, they only run at Pacific, Portland and for the first time last year, Spokane. Very limited venues and very limited number of races per year. They are more of a charity activity then really hard core racers. I do love them though
I guess for me, it was so much easier to see the path to the OW track with ICSCC than the others, I'm sure looking back it will all be obvious, however from a novice, wannabe perspective, the process is much more clear in the ICSCC program.
I won't abandon my friends at the SCCA - guys like David Conover got me headed towards PDX so I could whet my appetite and get to know the track just a bit. Like racerdad says, quitting will be hard!
One of the problems with flagging is that by the time we get off the track, most of the drivers are gone, leaving only time at lunch to hang around and bug them with noob questions. But a turn station can be the best seat in the house!
Jim
First off, great thread Mark. I've been following it since it started. I don’t usually post on Apex or any other forum for that matter because threads like this usually end up in a pissing contest but it appears everyone so far is in agreement.
It’s ridiculous to have to pay $650 for an SCCA school and I understand the cost of a track rental is the main reason. Maybe it’s time to think outside the box. Do new driver’s need to go to school? Maybe, maybe not. My son who is now racing a Vee starting racing karts at age 7. The requirements for racing karts are to learn the flags. He knew them and was sent out to practice, qualify, and race. He stayed out of the way, was watched closely, and was given advice after each session and did just fine. He raced karts until he jumped into his Vee. By the way, most kart tracks now allow kids to race starting at age 5.
Driver’s school format hasn't changed since I went to school back in the 70’s. Look what’s happening. Hoping things will get better won’t work anymore. Racers are out there but they are looking for the best value for their buck and SCCA isn't the best value so it’s no surprise there are only 4 or 5 new drivers per school.
I had a boss that used to say “If you come to me with a complaint make sure you have a solution” so I have 2 ideas/solutions.
1. No Driver’s School scenario.
• Do a driver’s license background check. Friday night classroom or online school before hitting the track. Allow the new driver to participate in a regional race. Let them participate in all sessions but do not allow passing, and stay out of the way. Have an instructor or instructors watching each session and bring them in for additional classroom time. For anyone with prior racing experience this should be easy.
2. Drivers School scenario
• Integrate PDX and Driver’s Schools together. By this I mean alternate on track sessions. My son attended his school in NJMP which was put on by Northern and Southern NJ regions and this is how it was done. Other than the freezing cold it went perfectly. Or participate in a PDX, finish is good standing and have count as a school. Remember, think outside the box. PDX’s are very popular and always sell out. Pretty easy way to help pay the track fee.
I feel bad for Steve10 who has a post or 2 here. He spent a whole race weekend at NH, did his homework, and bought a car. Now he can’t race it, and on top of that needs to rent a closed wheel car if he wants to get through the Glen school. Ridiculous. Time for change.
I have my asbestos undies on so naysayers may flame away.
Dave Reynolds
Last edited by Dave33; 09.13.13 at 8:47 PM.
Re: SCCA driver licensing is no simple task
Karting experience is a great way to transition into open wheel.
"An analog man living in a digital world"
+1 to Chris' earlier comment that close observation of students' performance in traffic at one of those little indoor kart tracks might be as good a way to evaluate them as the current school system.
Caldwell D9B - Sold
Crossle' 30/32/45 Mongrel - Sold
RF94 Monoshock - here goes nothin'
I think it's important to pass some type of class with a test about general knowledge of flags and racing, some people have no experience at all and have always just had a dream to be a racer and I'm sure they would welcome some guidance before jumping on track. I also think its a good idea for the student to be observed in the car the will be racing. Being belted in with a HANs, arm restraints and all the gear is a huge difference than Karts. I raced shifter karts and its a much different feeling than a formula car it's very restrictive compared to a kart or any other type of car which is why I think it's a good idea to view someone in the car.
I think having the classroom stuff online will be great and this alternative school thing we did in August worked well. It all depends on the driver and the process needs to adjust so we can make it easier to get people on track safety.
Mark Filip
Re: SCCA driver licensing is no simple task
I agree. Take the school in the car you're going to race. Tin tops are totally different to race than open wheeled formula cars. Perhaps 'check rides' like pilots go thru ? Get your license in 'whatever'. Be on 'restriction' when racing another 'type' for a race or two ? Exiting a Spec Miata is tricky for big guys, even tougher to get out of a formula car. Practice getting out of your car quickly... easier to do in a real 'situation' if you've rehearsed regularly.
"An analog man living in a digital world"
My experience at an SCCA "school" isn't exactly confidence inspiring anyway. They are more test day than driving school.
I've taken SCCA schools at New Hampshire and Lime Rock in a rented Spec Miata. At New Hampshire, we had about 3 instructors for a group of 20+ drivers, and one of the instructors actually hit a student on track (and it was the instructor's fault, I was right behind him).
At Lime Rock, there were a few more instructors, but my instructor was an E production driver who did nothing but tell me where to brake, even though my car had a much different braking point than his car. I can't recall a single lap that day spent following an instructor or learning how to drive. It was simply a test day for me to get used to the track before a race (a great value for a test day at that).
Something needs to change. Not only are there not enough schools, but to make matters worse the schools are simply a ceremonial hurdle to jump before you get a piece of paper that pretends you are a safe driver ready to go door to door with other cars. Maybe it's time to start combining schools with HPDE (track days for street cars). People love to spend money on track days, which would help with spreading the cost around.
THAT is part of why ICSCC wants you to do drivers school in a street car. Every single student has an ALL DAY instructor assigned to them and the instructor rides along on every single session except the end-of-day mock start.
Notice I said mock start NOT mock race. They come around in formation and take the green flag (if properly formed up). Then, 'race' to turn one where a yellow flag is flying.
They are well prepared for their first novice only race at that point during any ICSCC race weekend. In case you're wondering, we have a pretty steady flow of novices working toward their senior licenses. Any given novice race has 14 to 20 or so drivers in it.
Open wheel novice races are different. As there's only 5 to 8 drivers through the whole year, they will race with their 'real' run group of senior drivers who are truly gentlemen racers when around the novices and observe and talk to them after the race.
After your novice races a novice is required to seek out a senior driver who they were near and have him comment in his novice log book. That's in addition to being observed around the track by a group of senior drivers.
Hands on training hands on observation.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
The problem here is that a novice planning to race an open-wheel car doesn't get any sort of experience in driving an open-wheel car prior to showing up for a "live" race weekend. Those of us who've been driving these cars for a while tend to forget that the first time in one is a VERY different experience from driving a street car. Visibility, sound, gearbox (how many people have ever driven a dogring, straight-cut gearbox?), cornering, size, fit (this one's critical - there are things you don't know about how you fit in one of these until you go turn some laps on track at speed), etc.
Sorry, but if I'm racing against a new driver, I want him/her to have proven him/herself in a similar car on track at speed. Turning 9/10ths laps in a Miata is no substitute for real seat time in a FC/FM/FE/FB/FA - not even FF/F5/FV.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
Marshall,
In drivers school we don't want novices trying to show they are capable of 9/10ths driving in ANY car. They are there to be evaluated. There are a 'fair number' that do not get approved for their novice license with out trying 2 or even 3 times. Or just give up before they hurt themselves.
We don't have the biggest group of open wheel drivers in the country but we have a fair share. My son was a novice a few years ago and did drivers school in a rental Toyota. Although he had some HIGH speed time on a motorcycle, he had never driven any race car let alone a open wheel with a dog ring, straight-cut gearbox. He had NO TROUBLE from his 1st race on and was highly regarded right out of the box by the senior drivers (actually sorta shocked me). And I think the 90 Reynard's ease of handling and setup was a big help with his success.
All of our other open wheel novices have done extremely well with the program. Matter of fact, one of our newer guys purchased Nicholas Belling's old FC (he's a member here, a Firman dealer and now races FB's) and the guy set a new course lap record at Mission Raceway last weekend. Not bad for a beginner! :0)
Guys who just don't cut it in their novice races are encouraged to find a different hobby and they DO NOT get their senior licenses. It isn't a walk in the park. But if you have some skill and ability it's an easy and safe path to the track that gives you a chance to get started 8 out of 12 months of the year.
Last edited by rickb99; 09.16.13 at 7:28 PM.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Lots of Canadians go through their driver shool experience in street cars and seem to be able to produce very competant formula car drivers. We have our drivers racing 2 weeks later and doing full seasons their first year.
I have heard many complaints from those who came from the SCCA system ..... trying to keep a new race car running through a race school all but destroyed the race driver training process. Driving street cars is supposed to let the students focus on learning to race.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
By the time someone goes to a SCCA driving school, they should have years of karting, autocross, time trials etc. Today you add virtual racing.
A school is a place for a new driver to learn how to go fast and be comfortable with their car. As was said before - there is no guarantee to pass an SCCA school.
And it is a test of car and driver, intended to give a reasonable experience of racing. Which is why you need more school days, so there is less pressure to give someone a license.
There is no reason why schools can't be muffled, on off days, combined with time trials (solo 2 or PDX events, or partially held at alternate sites like kart tracks.
Every person who drives a formula car needed to switch from sedans at some point. Some take to it well, others know right away if it is for them. I think motorcycles are a great training found for formula cars - most riders I have seen tend to adapt very quickly to 4 open wheels.
It seems like we have discovered a weak point in SCCA racing - now we have to fix it to get the club growing.
ChrisZ
If you're from the area, Midwestern Council has two drivers schools a year at Blackhawk Farms. We include open wheel cars at them all, and the local SCCA Regions accept our graduates.
Jack Bartelt
Lola T540 CFF
Other than a little time in a spitfire in autocross, I have always been in formula cars. Why sedans?
come on, be honest
We all started in sedans, usually our father's. If our parents had any true idea of the stunts we pulled in the family grocery getter we'd still be grounded!
Personal confession time: I spun the family Renault R-10 in our Livonia subdivision. Learned at age 16 not to back off the gas in the middle of a corner in a rear engined car.
As for the discussion at hand, it would appear the quick and easy way to get your SCCA license would be to rent an IT car for a school or two, then break out the FV, F500, or FF. Those regions without a open wheel school might find some willing blokes to rent their IT car.
Simple really, it is just as it always has been: If you really want to do it, you'll find a way.
Lola: When four springs just aren't enough.
I don't think this is true. All of my kids raced go-karts before ever sitting in a driver's seat of a street car, and I believe that the majority of younger racers on open wheel are coming from karts, not autocross - I rode minibikes long before ever driving a car.
Heck, it might make more sense to say that everyone who wants to race sedans should really do their driver's school in a shifter kart - the logic is the same.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
I know back when I started, was young, without much money. I owned a formula car and that was with what I was going to go SCCA racing. There's no way I would have had the extra money to rent someone else's race car (twice, for two schools). That would have been a show stopper for sure.
If you're going to your very first SCCA race in a formula car, you are going to be in MUCH better position if you've already been driving it on a race track in the schools. Like mentioned above, for most people, racing a formula car is a totally foreign experience at first. Not something you want to dive into W2W racing the first time.
Sure, there are some talented kids that can pull it off, but we're not just talking about them.
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
Re: SCCA driver licensing is no simple task
I know I'm biased. At 60, I'm still loving karts. They beat the heck out of ya. The racing is nose to tail. It's extraordinarily intense. The competition is relentless. It looks ridiculously insane to the casual observer. My favorite race is the 100 lapper at Shawano. You can spend an hour, non-stop, racing.... climbing out of my kart & into the FC is like stepping out of a bar brawl & sitting in a recliner
"An analog man living in a digital world"
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote