Honda vs Ford

[GAC]

Ok, is there consensus that an average Honda is better than the best Ford over a complete lap? Would everyone accept a slight change to the restrictor to 30.3" to make things more equal?

[problemchild]

Ok, is there consensus that an average Honda is better than the best Ford over a complete lap? Would everyone accept a slight change to the restrictor to 30.3" to make things more equal?

No
No
31.3 would probably equalize the avge Honda to the best Ford. We know that.
The 30.5 is a concession to try and get more kents out.

[GAC]

If that is the case, why aren't the Fords kicking the Hondas butts? And, why all the talk on here aobut how the Honda is better than the Ford at the current restrictor size?

[iamuwere]

At M-O, the Ford was basically kicking the Honda butt at the front. The Ford was faster but just couldn't find a way to make a pass for the lead stick.

It was an amazing dice at the front.

[problemchild]

If that is the case, why aren't the Fords kicking the Hondas butts? And, why all the talk on here aobut how the Honda is better than the Ford at the current restrictor size?

I don't see talk from people that are involved in racing top level FF cars. I watched all the MO pro races from the end of the back straight. The Cape's Spectrum is the only Honda powered car on par with the Polestar VD at that part of the track. Virtually every Honda FF is a $30K-$100K race car. If you build a $50K kent-powered car and run it from a top prepshop with a proper budget AND have a world-class driver, comparable to those driving the Honda cars, you will be more than competitive, and will probably have an advantage.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

Just curious, what are the Ford guys looking for?

[Tom Valet]

Just curious, what are the Ford guys looking for?

I imagine the argument goes something like this: before the Honda, if you had an "average" Kent you could be competitive at most every race because you would rarely if ever run into one of the few monster Kents out there, which were squirrelled away and only taken out for big races.

Now with the Honda equal to the monster Kents, you cant be competitive if you have an average Kent, because anyone can buy a Honda cheaply and you will run into Hondas at virtually every race.

So, they want the Honda equalized to the average Kent, putting things back where they were before the Honda was approved.

Note, i dont agree with this point, but i have heard it repeatedly.

[iamuwere]

So that forces anyone wanting to be competitive to go on the hunt for a monster kent.

[bobmelvin]

Just curious, what are the Ford guys looking for?

To the request for a current FF driver.

Here's where I stand. Raced fords from 88-92 CENDIV. Pretty good drivers around then and 40 car Sprints field. Usually had 12-18 per race. Not comparing to today in field numbers but demonstrating I mixed it up a bit back then.

Returned this year in a chassis a few here are familiar with; '93 VD mono-shocker. During the course of this year I ran with almost all Hondas out here (Denver). We had float issues (6,200 max RPM) at the Sprints so I have no opinion there--yet.

I have a fresh Quicksilver coming for the Runoffs. We'll do just a single Rational as a shakedown over Labor Day and then up to RA. I will have a much better opinion with a fresh engine. My impressions this year was that the Honda's combination of ECU and EFI gave a distinct low end torque advantage during trackout. I could not stay with a decent National Honda at all. But I cannot vouch for the hours on the Kent. Important distinction.

So, I'll have a strong opinion after a good test at the finals. In my case, just coming back to the sport, most of my speed is to be found behind the wheel.

For me, my investment, to put $20k into the '93 VD chassis would produce a car that I could never get my investment back from. If I knew I would run this car for at least three years I'd go Honda at this point. I just don't know if I'm worth the investment to create a front running car when the driver's ability might be mid-pack these days.

I believe so many of us love FF so much it is the reason for so much heat in this long-term debate. In Skip Barber where we would be assigned a race car for the weekend, they would take a ton of, "My car sucks, My tires are square" type of crap. So they taught us all a lesson every race and had an instructor start from the pits after the green waived. most races the instructor beat the field.

The difference between a Honda and a Kent is less than a start from the pits.

Bob Melvin

[Daryl DeArman]

So that forces anyone wanting to be competitive to go on the hunt for a monster kent.

Nope. They can buy a Honda, pay for a monster Kent to be built, or hunt for the monster Kent themselves.

If that is the case, why aren't the Fords kicking the Hondas butts? And, why all the talk on here aobut how the Honda is better than the Ford at the current restrictor size?

I haven't seen a whole lot of talk on here about the Honda being "better" beyond being a "better financial decision if you run a bunch and plan on doing so for a bit"

[Jonathan Hirst]

Just curious, what are the Ford guys looking for?

/:sarcasm:ON

The Honda drivers have to "buy" a restrictor from the organizer and they are kept in 3 boxes.
Box 1 has restrictors sized randomly from 29 to 30mm. It costs $3500 to choose from this box.
Box 2 has sizes between 29.5 to 30 mm. $8000
Box 3 has sizes between 30.1 30.5 mm. $12,000
There is a secret 4 th box of 30.6mm restrictors which cost $15000 and you must have made at least 3 purchases from Box 3 in the past 2 years.

You can purchase a new restrictor once a season, or after 15 hours of run time. The parity will not be found on the dyno, but by seeing the Honda drivers having the same uncertainty of end HP, and $ spent for HP, over many seasons as the Kent drivers.

/:sarcasm:: OFF

The Honda is the best hope I have for my kids to one day drive one of these cars in the next 7 to 10 years at the regional level I can run at. The more Hondas made today, Will be creating that
Trickle down I hope to benefit from in the future.

[Purple Frog]

Just to make sure everyone knows Jonathan was joking.

I have personally measured every restrictor raced in the pro Series.

OBTW, none are equal to 30.5. All are a bit smaller.

I have 25 more restrictors in the Series rig if folks want to trade.

You'd be better off trying to figure out how to roll through the corners as fast as Jake.

[BURKY]

What is the HP # on the Monster kent motors???

[Purple Frog]

More than a Honda with a 30.5 restrictor.

Pony up about $12,000 and Steve Knapp will tell you the exact answer.

[BURKY]

The Honda's down here have not been a threat. Thanks to Cricket Farm Motors!

[problemchild]

/:sarcasm:ON

The Honda drivers have to "buy" a restrictor from the organizer and they are kept in 3 boxes.
Box 1 has restrictors sized randomly from 29 to 30mm. It costs $3500 to choose from this box.
Box 2 has sizes between 29.5 to 30 mm. $8000
Box 3 has sizes between 30.1 30.5 mm. $12,000
There is a secret 4 th box of 30.6mm restrictors which cost $15000 and you must have made at least 3 purchases from Box 3 in the past 2 years.

You can purchase a new restrictor once a season, or after 15 hours of run time. The parity will not be found on the dyno, but by seeing the Honda drivers having the same uncertainty of end HP, and $ spent for HP, over many seasons as the Kent drivers.

/:sarcasm:: OFF

The Honda is the best hope I have for my kids to one day drive one of these cars in the next 7 to 10 years at the regional level I can run at. The more Hondas made today, Is creating that
Trickle down I hope to benefit from in the future.

Excellent post!
Very funny Jon!

[BURKY]

I raced against " Treadway's Runoff's motor" last weekend. That thing is a Monster!!!

[Steve Bamford]

If that is the case, why aren't the Fords kicking the Hondas butts? And, why all the talk on here aobut how the Honda is better than the Ford at the current restrictor size?

It is not the Honda that is putting cars at the front, it is a total package. Look at the cars who finish in the front...all run by top level teams pretty much with young shoes driving them.

There are people who have switched from Kents to Honda's & many still are finishing in the same spots they did previously whether it be the pointy end of the grid, mid back or near the back of the field. Some people have improved as well, but HP likely isn't the direct answer to that.

Kent owners who say the Honda has an advantage leaving the corners need to understand there is more to corner exit speed then simply just an engine. How is that some Honda cars seem to exit the corners faster then I do in a Honda? Oh right, it has to do with the driver, car set up, tires & more...how is that I have experience with Kents leaving me behind too? Ah ya I forgot there are other factors that can affect that too.

[racinray]

And btw, just because the engine is a Honda doesn't mean it is producing as much HP as other Hondas. I would venture to say that most of the Hondas in the F1600 series have been blueprinted and the restrictor plate sizes have been determined based on how well those engines are performing (and rightfully so). But my engine is a stock engine that has not been blueprinted so I figure I'm down a few HP. I wish I could say that was the reason why I'm not at the pointy end of the grid but I'm more realstic than that. I have plenty of other things to work on then to worry about the HP right now.

Here is my take on the whole Ford vs Honda at Mid Ohio situation. A very good Ford in a very good car with a very good driver competed fair and square with a very good Honda in a very good car with a very good driver. And look at how many Hondas that Ford beat in the process!! This tells me that if someone who shows up with a good Ford in a good car with a good driver can compete with other good Hondas in good cars with good drivers. There is absolutely no reason for Ford drivers to refrain from showing up to a race just because they might be competing against Hondas. And remember, trying to go just as fast with less HP just forces you to become a better driver.

Ray

[racerdad2]

Perhaps naming the Ford powered cars Formula Ford (I know, revolutionary) & the new Honda powered cars Formula Honda & then racing them 'together' may help ? If I'm FoMoCo, what incentives are there for me to promote racing with something I haven't sold in decades ? If I'm Honda, what's my incentive to promote a class called Formula Ford for decades ? Maybe this class could be named 'FF v FH' ? Might make it a bit more fun like Ford v Chevy in the beginning of Trans Am ? Change is difficult & inevitable... Perhaps remembering the thrill of just being on track & the pure joy of escaping the 'real' world for a few moments would help... I know, everyone wants to win. I've just noticed that in every race, loosers Far out number the winner Just some unsolicited random thoughts....

[problemchild]

You can win with either engine. No need for two classes.
Before, you can win with either engine, you need $50K worth of goodies, with world-class prep and driving. We all know of the occasional older VD or DB1 that runs at a high level, but those over-achieving cars are well-driven and have been developed over time (and are rarely there at the end of the big races).
While it is easy to blame the Honda engine, the high costs of developing and maintaining a competitive FF package, is the prime factor in the decline and/or growth of the class, as it is in so many SCCA classes.

[racerdad2]

I couldn't agree more... my thought is this... In NASCAR there are only 5 or 6 Perhaps 10 driver/ cars that can win on any given day. In F1, 3 to 6 that have a shot of winning. Even in Spec Racing, like Indy Car, 5 or 6 are true contenders. So, do the guys who's chances of winning quit ? If that would be the attitude, we'd be watching 5 or 6 cars race on any given day in any given Series. Maybe, just maybe, a mindset of racing for the joy of racing would be better than the one of racing isn't Everything, it's the Only thing. After all, isn't racing with someone, somewhere, whether it be for First or Fifteenth, better than sitting at home ? Of course, this comes from a guy who has survived engine failures in small planes, broken backs, broken necks, 'terminal' renal failure, 'terminal' cancer & a host of other near death experiences & has decided that his childhood dream of racing in Open Wheel, REAL Race Cars, may not happen, if he doesn't get on with it... call me, grateful.... I've been called worse

[R. Pare]

And btw, just because the engine is a Honda doesn't mean it is producing as much HP as other Hondas. I would venture to say that most of the Hondas in the F1600 series have been blueprinted........
Ray

If I remember correctly, the difference is about 2 HP between stock and blueprinted.

[Raceworks]

If I remember correctly, the difference is about 2 HP between stock and blueprinted.

More like 1. Personally I think the blueprinting is a waste of money.

[KenT]

Its so difficult, if not impossible to say "The Hondas ran away from that Ford last weekend so there needs to be change" and/or "I have been pretty fast in my car through the years, so it wasn't a car/driver thing.

On any given day a driver/car package can be great or not so great. Look at Indycar. On any given day, a driver might be at the front competing for a win, but yet at the next race they could struggle. Why? Setup, driving, they used up their tires early in race and couldn't compete after the yellow let everyone catch up, etc. etc, so forth.

Look at Rosberg in F1. He has won races this year, but on any given day he will struggle at the next track. Sometimes even on a day when Hamilton in the same car run very well. Same with Vettel/Webber and Alonso/Massa. They are all great drivers, but sometimes it just doesn't work out.

That's racing....

[Bob Wright]

A small clarification, Ray: The Honda restrictor is not varied based on tuning; it's fixed at 30.5 mm based on relative performance to the Kent. On the dyno the 31mm matches up to the better Kent's so it doesn't surprise me that LCIII's car did very well last weekend.

[Drivers Services]

Reminds me of a race I was at years ago when a talented national championship winning and professional driver, immediately after having been beaten, came up to the "older" driver who had beaten him to bemoan how he shouldn't have beaten him. The older drivers response was classic "Don't blame me because you bought the wrong car."

Anyway that being said. When I started racing years ago I bought a Crossle. The $7K price including trailer and spares was a lower priced option as far as cost barrier to entry. I bought it knowing full well that the Crossle was an excellent and competitive entry level car but to have any hopes of being competitive when moving up to nationals would require buying a different car. The increased level of competitiveness required you to do so.

I own one of the so called "Monster" Kents. We won the inaugural F1600 Championship with it in 2011. You won't be seeing it at any Regionals. You can argue that the Honda is equal to, greater than or less than a dyno time only Monster Kent ect ect. Doesn't matter. At any F1600 Pro race on any weekend there are a myriad of factors that will decide who wins. Having a excellent motor like the one bolted into the back of LCIII"s Van Diemen or a good 30.5 plate Honda is just one of the many necessary ingredients. The level of competitiveness is several steps above National.

I have driven more vintage, CF and FF's than most. I've driven every level of Ford engine as well as virtually every size plate ever bolted into a Honda. There are currently 8 FF's in my shop and a total of 11 that we support. We support every "level" of driver at DS as well. FF is my favorite class

This debate? I would look at it as what would be best for the class.

The "average" pinto motor powered FF is in some ways similar to the Crossle package I started in. It is a lower priced entry cost option (NOTE> I said entry cost, not running cost ). From a competitive stand point it belongs at Regionals. If you want to run up front at Majors or Pro you'll have to bring something more.

What would I recommend? 2 plates for the Honda. I believe the class would benefit from it. I'm not arguing what's "fair" to each combination just stating what I think would be best for the class.


One for SCCA Pro and Majors


One Slightly smaller for Regionals


It'll never happen.

Yours for the Sport,

Jim Little
Drivers Services

[racerdad2]

A voice of reason.... very practical.... you're right.... it'll never happen

[Chris Elwell]

Perhaps naming the Ford powered cars Formula Ford (I know, revolutionary) & the new Honda powered cars Formula Honda & then racing them 'together' may help ? ....
Maybe this class could be named 'FF v FH' ? .

No. The SCCA desperately needs to consolidate and/or eliminate classes, not create another class that is 98% identical to an existing class. Too many classes is one of the main problems with club racing.

[racerdad2]

I didn't intend to create different classes.Just call them what they are & enjoy the rivalry of racing one against the other. This notion of parity is like mining for unobtainium. It sux that decades of Kent development is being passed over. Kents have had a very long run, it's sad to think they will fade away. But, they will... Everything does...The new generation is not enthusiastic about running old technology. Carb tuning ? In a few years, kids won't know what a carb is. I've got an 'old' Reynard & a Pinto. Why ? 'Cause I'm old & I understand flat tappets, carbs, points, condensers, coils & rocker suspensions. For my son... dreaming Honda Fit, then a Zetec... IF I, myself, don't fade away please keep in mind, these are merely thoughts... my sphere of influence is imperceptible... I just enjoy the debates...