start question?

[mark defer]

okay, okay, i'll admit that my latest gcr is from '94. but i have a rules question concerning what happened at the runoffs preceding the start.
when tim minor pulled into the pits before the start, everyone in the outside [left] row moved up a row [2 positions]well before the green [actually, they moved up before the field had reached the keyhole]. is this legal?
my old gcr has 2 sections which would indicate it is not. 7.3.3 says "a false start shall occur when a driver under the starter's orders moves forward from his or her prescribed position before the start". in section 7.5 it states "a car may not improve it's position in the field once it comes under the starter's orders, regardless of circumstances". so does a more up to date gcr say anything different?
as i said before, i sucked in the race and it wouldn't have changed the outcome for me. but i remember thinking as we came through the keyhole that we just went through 3 days of qualifing and all those suckers in the left lane got a 2 position gift. is it legal......or not?

mark d

[PK]

Being one who benefited from the situation, I'm not sure I want to know the answer. I sure had a bunch of thoughts flash through my head, but I quickly concluded I didn't conclusively know what the rules say about such a situation, so I just went with the flow and moved forward.

I'll pull out my current GCR tonight and see what I can find.

[GR]

Current GCR reads the same.

I will add 7.5.11 "A car that improves its position is guilty of a false start and will be penalized as provided in 7.3.3, False Start"

7.3.3 places the the determination of a False Start up to the Chief Steward

7.5.9 Also places responsibility on the Starter to determine the field is in "good order" and that "some drivers have (not) improved their positions or by passing prior to the waving of the green flag..."

In this case I would say it depends on who saw what, and who, if anyone, files a protest. My bet is the starter missed the car pulling out of line and he only saw the pack "bunching up" to take the start.

Of course, we know that there are no drivers who would ever take advantage of a situation , and that all drivers know their GCR , and that every infraction of our rules is observed by someone with the capacity to know what they just saw and know what to do ..............

Aw, h*ll. It looks like a rule was busted and it was missed, or overlooked.

[mark defer]

to add more confusion to the situation, imediately after the race, we asked an scca official [who will go un-named] about the legality of what happened. he told us that it was perfectly legal for the left side of the grid to move up and fill the void.


mark d

[kea]

Once again it, this shows how little those that run SCCA's races, really know of it's rules.
But it also means that the racers should read those same rules, point them out if neccessary and use this knowledge.
Keith

[mark defer]

keith,
does that mean i should buy a new gcr?

mark d

[Purple Frog]

No Mark,
You should buy a better official. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img]

and... such a deal I have for you... I'll sell you a 2003 GCR for half price. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[DaveW]

One of the problems here was that the pace car pulls off at the pits (prior to corner one). The pole car then leads the pack around to the main straight, where we get the green. While going up to the keyhole, cars lined up two-by-two. Until then, drivers were still warming their tires, meaning most cars were still in single file when Tim pulled off. This made the incorrect alignment more difficult to spot. However, I don't think it was legal to move up, and the entire left row behind where Tim was could have been penalized if the officials had realized what happened.

[Chas Shaffer]

In retrospect this is actually more confusing than you think. I'm not exactly sure what happened. Tim was on the right side not the left side. What I think happened is Russ moved from 6th place (left side of track) to 5th (right side of track) to fill the hole left by Tim. As we formed up I stayed along side Mark on the left side in 8th. As we went into the keyhole I closed up on the car in front of me. I was thinking the right side would get moved up since Tim dropped out so it never occured to me that our side had an advantage. The left side should not have had an advantage. Very, very confusing.

[mark defer]

gee chas, your right. i forgot that tim was supposed to be on the right and russ on the left. the empty gap should have been in front of me! now i'm even more upset! hey, it was nice to meet you, and nice drive btw.

mark d

[Matt M.]

This happened to me at a Pro race this year....
And I stood to gain from it - I ran through the whole thing in my mind as we warmed up tires. I knew there would be a space in front of me - but I also knew I couldn't "pass" the car in front before the green. I elected to leave about 5-6 feet behind the car in front - This left a "space" where the car in front should have been and I wasn't in danger of passing before the flag. I was about 2 feet back from being nose to nose with the car in that row...I'm sure everybody behind stacked up half a car length in front on their row Advantage: yes Breaking the rules: NO!

If a penalty gets assesed I think it should be for the car (and only the car) that moves the line up - IF they immediatly pass the car on the next row. Sitting back 1 foot from thier nose should be perfectly legal - until the green drops.

BTW - I guess this would only be "legal" for one side.....???

[size="1"][ September 25, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Matt M. ][/size]

[Purple Frog]

See Mark...

You should have moved up to Russ' left side...after he had moved into Tim's old spot.

[mark defer]

yeh frog, i'm sure THAT would have gone un-noticed. moving to the left AND up a row.

mark

[Purple Frog]

You'd have to do it before the Keyhole...

We come to realize that the starter at most tracks only sees the field for a few seconds before she/he makes a decision, and he/she has no idea what order the field should be in other than two-by-two.

OBTW, I got to say if there was a space in front of me, I'm pretty sure I would fill it up. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[size="1"][ September 25, 2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Purple Frog ][/size]

[Chas Shaffer]

It was nice to meet you as well Mark. Thanks for coming by and introducing yourself and thanks for the kind words although I now feel like my finish is somewhat tarnished.

I'm very sorry that the start was controversial. I agree if anyone should have benefitted from Tim's misfortune the right side should have. As Dave indicated we were single file when Tim pulled off so when we formed up I just pulled beside you and as with any start then closed the gap to the car in front of me not knowing it wasn't who it was suppose to be.

Technically speaking I'm still not sure what I should have done but I'm glad you didn't come to the left otherwise I would have had to go right and Rick left and so on and so forth...... That would have been a mess!

[mark defer]

chas,
tarnished? hell no!!! you da man!! well, after mike and dave anyway.
i didn't bring this subject up to cast doubt on anyone's finish. you did a great job and deserve the accolades.
i was truly befudled though by the differences in what the gcr said and what we were told by the officials. i just wanted to initiate a conversation and see what everyone's opinion was.
as it was happening i had a feeling that it was questionable. but i agree with the frog. if it had been on my side, i would have taken the gift as well.
mark

[size="1"][ September 25, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: mark defer ][/size]

[Purple Frog]

Semi-serious... well, maybe not...
But, why not put the "splitter" out in the track about 250 yards before the starting line, instead of at grid out?

Notice that standing starts don't have this problem. [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img]

[D.T. Benner]

OK frog,you want to be the splitter?

[Purple Frog]

I'm working on a skyhook design... I'll get back to you. [img]smile.gif[/img] Hum... at Road Atlanta I'll hang from the bridge. [img]redface.gif[/img]

[Rick Silver]

Chas, the results are a done deal and your finish is not tarnished in any way. You had a great drive with several key passes of tough competitors to finish on the podium.

If anyone is tarnished here, it is the starting officials, although as Dave W. says things were single file when Tim pulled off making it difficult. When he pulled off, I have to say, my thought was that our row should have been the one pulling up. In retrospect, I did not know if it was legal or not.

After reading the rule book, I am now convinced that it is not legal to move up and that Matt M. is correct in what one can do.

The rule book says in 7.5 "a car may not improve its position in the field once under the starters orders, regardless of circumstances. A car that fails to start .....relinquishes its grid position. A car that improves his position is guilty of a false start .....7.3.3." and in 7.3.3 "a false start shall occur when a driver under the starters orders moves forward of his prescribed position before the start. For a rolling start, ..shall refer to improving the drivers position in relation to the moving field by moving out of line or passing."

The GCR also indicates that we are under the starters orders at either the 1 minute or 5 minute board as there are specific references to the "starter or grid marshall" at the 1 minute board sequence. Chas in no way is your finish tarnished. This discussion is useful though so that in future circumstances everyone (including the "starter") is clear on the rules.

Congratulations to Mike, Dave and Chas on a job well done.

[PK]

I agree with the general consensus on the rule interpretation. I have a practical question, though.

In this case, the starter threw the green on a seemingly properly aligned field. That suggests to me that he/she was not expecting there to be a hole. What are the chances that if there had been a hole in the third row, the start would have been waved off because the starter interpreted the hole as someone hanging back? And if so, how would you get the message to the field, after the wave-off, about what they need to do to get properly aligned?

Coincidentally, last night I was watching a video recap of the 1988 Runoffs, and in one of those races, the engine of the pole-sitter died on the pace lap, and the race was green flagged with an obvious hole.

[R. Pare]

Actually, Mark, the GCR states that any time that there is a question, any St. Clair drivers must drop BACK 2 places!