Potential Rule Impact on FC

[rickb99]

The comp board is proposing an exit speed requirement in FS and AS classes. If allowed to go through without challenge, it could eventually come to all formula and sports racer classes.

In an emergency, could you get out of your FC in 5 seconds? I doubt it. Here are two posts from the D/SR forum. If you're concerned, write the Competition Board now!

POSTED by Ted James:
The November Fast Track has some rule changes for FS and ASR that require exit times from the car. 5 seconds for FS and 7 seconds for ASR. This does not apply directly to DSR/CSR but if it is implimented for FS and ASR can we be far behind.

We sent the following to the comp board. " In the november fast track for the FS and ASR classes you have included exit times as part of the rules, 5 seconds for formula and 7 seconds for sports racers. I feel that this is a bad president so set for club racing for the following reasons. Given the diverse age and physical conditions of the drivers it would make the car legal or not based on the age and physical condition of the driver and not the vehicle.

Could I use a 13 year old gymnast to pass the exit time then have the 70+ year old driver that won FA at the runoff's a short time ago drive the car? How about this I fell off my mountain bike and sprained my ankle and now can not get out as quick as the last time I was tested? I can see this kind of rule in F1, CART, IRL where the drivers are in constant training. This proposed rule goes to the condition of the driver in CLUB RACING and not the techinical condition/design of the car. Minimum cockpit opening sizes should be used.

FROM A REPLY COMMENT:
I'd say going at top speed, it would probably take me 2.5 to 3 seconds to exit my Lincoln Continental with consumer seat belt on. That assumes I'm primed to start with hands on the wheel and haven't been slapped silly alongside the head a few times.

Best trained drag racer speed reactions say it's going to take .5 seconds for me to make the first twitch. No steering wheel to disconnect and dispose of. No racing harness to work my way out of. No need to feel around for brace points to lift myself out of the car. No need to wiggle and squirm my legs over any humps. No need to crawl through a window or get a jammed door open. Yes, okay doors open. But with intrusion bars you might as well be going through the window.

Just came home from the last race of the season in Seattle for the ICSCC/IRDC. Two incidents on the front straight.

One, major oil line separation on a sports racer and driver got out quick because it could have flamed. I'd say about 15 seconds after the car stopped.

Second, FF spin, slide, smoke and car stopped in a somewhat dangerous place. Driver exited car in about 20 seconds.

Finally, barring fire, what's the rush? Better to wait a few more seconds to be sure you're not getting banged into by another car. Better to still be strapped in then half out and hit.

Again, barring fire, it's also wise to take a few seconds and check for injuries that could be aggrivated by exiting the car too quickly.

There's a court case for you. The SCCA TOLD me I HAD to be out of the car in 7 seconds. I did, and was more seriously injured. Gimme money.

This proposed RULE makes no sense, may not be good sense and probably puts the driver at higher risk.

If you guys don't want to be tested during tech to see if you can exit your car in 5 SECONDS with full gear on, write the comp board now and get this stopped before it gets started.

[size="1"][ October 07, 2002, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: rickb99 ][/size]

[Jtovo]

Remember that really bad movie, DRIVEN? They had some stupid part like this in the movie. Why a time limit? I could see the need to be sure that a driver could exit his car on his own power and without assistance, but a limit? You will need clauses incase the driver is severly injured and cannot exit or if the driver is not concious and cannot exit.
I am trying to figure out the logic to putting a time limit on this.

[BrooksHall]

To be honest I don't really have a problem with a rule like this. I think 7 sec is to short 10-12 would be more realistic. Go back and read "My hottest lap" and you can see the need to exit your car quickly and safely. Common sense would say that the SCCA doesn't expect us to get out of our cars when injured, that's what our highly competent corner workers are for.

After reading "My hottest lap" I went the garage got into all my gear and practiced untill I could get out of my car blindfolded. I don't know how fast I do it but I'd bet it's close to 10sec.

[rickb99]

Actually, I just re-read the proposed rule.

7 seconds apply's to closed cockpit cars. If imposed on SCCA formula and sports racers in general, the criteria would in all likelyhood be the open cockpit time of 5 seconds.

[dc]

I think you should be prepared to get out of your car as fast as possible in the event of fuel leak, accident, fire, etc. Now, I realize that the rule is to make sure that there aren't 300 pound guys trying to squeeze themselves into Vees, but mandating a time limit? How about making sure that the driver can reasonably and safely get out of their car in an emergency? Fine, but how can this be accomplished?

What are they going to do, test every driver in full gear during tech? That seems real efficient. There is no way that I can get out in 5-7 seconds, and I am thin and in relatively good shape. Knot in a driver with arm restraints, sub-belts and the rest of a harness, radio gear and then add in things like a HANS device and a removable steering wheel, and there isn't a chance in hell that I can get out of the car to safety in 5-7 seconds. Where do they get these numbers?

[Bullitt]

Wild guess,

FSAE has an exit rule and SCCA has been operating/sanctioning FSAE in most of the U.S.
Someone on the board probably thought the rule was good and is trying to transfer it over.

My take/experience is the concept is good, the rule is not -- most of the reasons have been mentioned by others above. BTW, there is no way to make it out unaided and quickly with the upper body crash pads used for oval racing.

"Safety" is a balance -- optimizing for fire protection/driver egress likely will detract from driver protection against impacts. Which problem is more common?

What is going on at SCCA (administration)? Do we have a new bunch of committee chairpeople/members trying to exert their ego/perception/whatever to differentiate the product from the immediate past regime? Many silly things happen just after a change of regime. Of course many good things happen also.
But, I think we may be straying some distance over the line at the moment.

Bob Layman

[D. Ferguson]

If items like a radio are preventing you from exiting the car, you might consider not using them. My radio setup is such that if I forget to unhook it, it will natually disconnect -- likewise arm restraints should naturally fall away when the main harness is unbuckled.

I will be testing my exit time next weekend, but I think 5 is achievable, with a little practice.

[dc]

David, if you can get out in 5 seconds, while being calm and focused, I'll be impressed, and I'll eat my words.

Do it when you are panicked and on fire with raw fuel in your lap, and I'll really be impressed.

[Matt M.]

I think the rule (of 5 sec) is intended for a "controlled" enviroment. Exiting the car should not be complicated by anything - I think this rule is designed to demonstrate (to tech inspection) that the driver can exit without getting caught on the seatbelts, intrusion protection, the church key hanging off of the bias adjuster etc.... If you do - then tech will make sure you clean up whatever is in the way.....

The Fire bottle is designed to dump 90% of its contents in 10 seconds (FIA requirment) - Maybe 1/2 that is a good starting point for a controlled exit - maybe not... I usually take 5-10 seconds to figure out where to put the steering wheel - so as not to scratch anything or leave the radio button on.... I think 7 seconds is more realistic - but maybe 5 is what it should be..

[rickb99]

Dave F.,

I suspect you can make it out of your S2 in around 5 to 6 seconds with a little forethought and planning.

Try it in your Stohr with the narrower cockpit.

[Bullitt]

Note about egress testing: Last time I Tech'ed at FSAE, we had several bruises and one very sore ankle from drivers diving/jumping out of the cockpit to make the 5 second rule. We also gave three attempts since that was the first time for enforcement of the rule. One team had to change drivers as their primary driver just could not exit their car in the required time.

If you can undo your belts with one hand while simultaneously removing the steering wheel with the other, then you should be able to make a 5 second egress from a FC without diving. This assumes no "oval" pads at the top of the cockpit. Bruises and/or a sprained ankle still are possible (very) injuries from the test.

I remain quite skeptical about the need for the requirement/test.

Bob Layman

[Daniel]

I don't see the need for this (proposed) rule to apply to FC either. We already have minimum cockpit opening sizes which I assume are to ensure we can get out of the car in an emergency. I had someone time me getting out in full gear back when I got the car (to make my wife happy, not the SCCA) and I could do it in 4.2 seconds without falling down, about three seconds if I dove and rolled.

I can see the need for a rule like this for GT cars and closed sports racers. I climbed in one of those Diasio-D962 DSR cars and it was a chore to get in or out. It would probably take me 20-25 seconds to climb out in a panic. I also saw a tube-frame 3rd generation RX-7 being built a few years back and the window opening was so small I asked (in all seriousness) if it would have a roof hatch for the driver to get in and out.

[Dave Harmison]

I take exception to the "300 pounder in FV" comment. I am 6'9" and 240 lbs. and drive a Reynard FC I modified so I can curl up and drive it. Am I not allow to drive formula cars just because I am oversize? I can't come close to minnimum weight and now I'm going to get regulated out of my sport of choice? Hey, I want Americans with Disabilites Act protection from this!

[dc]

Hey Dave, no offense, but if you have ever seen a larger guy get in and out of a FV, you know it is almost painful to watch.

Two years ago, we watched a 6'5" guy absolutely PEEL himself out of his car after a session, while his crew almost used a shoe-horn to get him out, taking bodywork and everything else off in the process. In all seriousness, if this guy was in an accident, there is NO WAY he could get out in a reasonable amount of time.

This is a safety concern that I can understand. I'm sorry, but if you have this type of difficulty getting out of your car, you just may be in the wrong car. Personally, wouldn't want to be in a car that I had that much trouble getting in and out of a vehicle. I'd find a larger car to race.

After thinking about this issue over the last couple of days, I realize that it is indeed about this type of problem. Someone on a corner somewhere had an issue, probably with a guy like the one in that Vee, and said, "this is REALLY dangerous." Rules don't usually materialize out of thin air. [img]smile.gif[/img]

-doug

[Purple Frog]

Sort of the same vein.
This month's Road and Track (I still read it even though they refuse to publish SEDIV CFC reports...) has an big article on Dan Gurney's '67 Eagle that won at Spa....

No seat belts. Dan was quoted as saying that in those days with no fuel cells and monocoupes built out of magnesium he perferred his chances to be throw out....

I think soon after they mandate the Hans, we may also follow F1 and have to have seats that can be used as body boards to lift us out of the car in one piece.

[rickb99]

Okay, I'll look at this from the other side.

Doug,
I really hadn't pondered the 'problem' of the larger driver in a too small car. That is a genuine problem.

I think the SCCA rules tried to address this issue by specifying minimum cockpit openings.

The trouble is, the average club racer has gotten larger as time goes on. In addition to girth Americans have become considerably taller. I'm old and about 5'10 3/16" which was pretty typical for my age group. 20 year olds today have got to be averaging around 6'1" and 6'3" isn't uncommon. My son is 6'2" and I haven't seen a friend of his under 6' since he was in junior high. Getting him into any formula car or newer generation sports races is a tight fit.

Although the statistics could negate my opinion, I think most of the highest level drivers in F1 and CART are below these typicals (saves weight and take up less room).

Almost all formula and open cockpit cars are built close to these minimums for aero reasons.

The cockpit opening rules that apply at that level are about the same as the SCCA's. So, many club racers have to fold and bend in odd places to fit the car. Legs cramped, knees together shoulders squeezed by frame tubing (not seat restraints), can't slip belts off while fully seated without twisting body, etc. My gosh, look at how many people are racing with NO seat just to get down in the car.

Okay, so people have to be able to get out of their car in a 'reasonable' amount of time.

Interestingly, some of the same people who say having a rule and being tested is okay, also say it probably shouldn't and wouldn't happen in real world situations. Then why be tested for compliance with something that isn't reality? Somewhere there's a balance between what the rule should be and carrying it too far for amateur club racing.

Maybe minimum cockpit openings should be changed? I've seen dozens of older FV's that have been modified because today's size drivers cannot even enter let alone exit the car. FC's and single seat sports racers aren't a whole lot bigger in cockpit size.

I guess the question is, should weekend club racers meet the same standards in this regard as professionals who sit in a custom fitted race car virtually every day of their life?

RE BELOW: You want to be held to the same standards but, you want twice the amount of time. That sounds reasonable to me too.

[size="1"][ October 11, 2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: rickb99 ][/size]

[BrooksHall]

"I guess the question is, should weekend club racers meet the same standards in this regard as professionals who sit in a custom fitted race car virtually every day of their life?"

Actually I think we should be held to these standards because we are club racers. We are in cars that for the most part are less safe than a modern F1 or CART car. I think this rule is a great idea, although I believe the time should be closer to 10-12 sec. Because I drive an older FC and I am laying on top of my fuel cell I practiced my exit untill I could do it in my sleep. I also, regardless of the weather, wear a 3 layer suit and underwear. My safety is paramount and I think it both prudent and reasonable for the SCCA to expect that a driver could exit his car quickly and safely.

[size="1"][ October 10, 2002, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

[Dave Harmison]

How about this: If the average driver is getting bigger, how about making minnimum dimensions for cars bigger? I can't afford a newer Van Diemen, but I understand the 2000's or 1999's were TINY inside. If we regulate car size then more club members, more racers, better all around. I was bigger the Christiano DeMatta in 3rd grade! Granted, I'm an outlier, but Mark Davison and Ron Thomas here in CenDiv ain't little either.

[Matt Conrad]

Everyone driving these cars should take responsibility and understand the implications of not being able to get out of their car quickly in an emergency. If you can't get out quickly then you should think about driving something else.

Having been on fire once, I know that the situation will dictate how fast I can move to get out of the car. Rules on how fast someone can get out of a car are ridiculous and should be left to movies where drama is required to set up the next scene. To borrow a phrase from Dennis Miller "that's just my opinion...I could be wrong".

[Mark C. Ritter]

David,

I have an '84 Reynard and am 6'2" and 210 pounds. I curious what mods you did to get into your car. I moved my pedals out all the way and moved the headrest back and this helped a lot, but I would like just a bit more legroom. Could you detail what you did?

[Purple Frog]

Mark,
When A.J. bought Todd Bowman's '84, he had the same problem. A.J. being about 6'2".

A.J. had Comprent move the crossbrace that is over the fuel cell back about 2". That made it possible for A.J. to be farther back in the car. A.J. also sat on the floor/underpan.

[Chester Carter]

I will preface this reply by admitting to weighing between 240/245 lbs before putting on the drivers suit and helmet. I have a leg that weighs more than some of my competitors. A rule such as this is more than likely written by someone who never discovered his ass on fire in the cockpit as I and I'm sure several others have. I am here to tell you that when this situation arises, exiting in a timely manner is not a problem. You don't care if you crack the windscreen or body or whatever under these circumstances. Hell I don't even have a removable wheel and my piano leg stumps came right out. It seems that every time they screw in a new lightbulb upstairs they have to make some new rule to mark their territory. just my humble opinion Chester Carter SF region

[D.T. Benner]

AMEN,Chester! Like a dog finding a new tree!!