Malaysian GP Discussion : SPOILER

[a. pettipas]

Excellent! All the greatest drivers, past and present, have had that mindset - winning is the only thing that matters.

I call it having the ability to switch to arsehole-mode as required.

[a. pettipas]

One thing for sure is if Vettel was in my line of business he'd be out of a job or dead. We had a guy just like him and that guy ended up being nothing more than an oil slick, bad thing was is he took an unknowing participant with him.

Selling drugs?

[DaveW]

No question you are correct in that we need more of that kind of good racing. However in this particular case Vettel, Webber and the Red Bull team had an agreement and Vettel broke that agreement and it was not an accident. My Father brought me up to believe that a man is ONLY AS GOOD AS HIS WORD and Vettel's word in now worth nothing.

That seems to be a quality a lot of modern sportsmen have: me first, no one else matters. It seems to pervade all sports.

It seems like this was not nearly as prevalent 40 or 50 years ago.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Agree 100% Dave. I was brought up that how you win was as important as the fact that you won. Doesn't seem to mean much any more.

[Peter Olivola]

No different now than 50 years ago, Dave. My mother was a long distance swimmer. Trained with Gertrude Ederle (first woman to swim the English Channel.) She was a Red Cross Examiner and certified many of the Life Guards on the North Jersey Shore. Her first dating advice to me was never consider an Olympic athlete. They don't have the mind space for anyone else.

My own experience was when I seriously harbored the delusion someone else could be convinced to pay for my racing. That was the low point in my ability to relate to other people (although some would argue not much has changed.)

If it's gotten worse it's just a reflection of society as a whole.

That seems to be a quality a lot of modern sportsmen have: me first, no one else matters. It seems to pervade all sports.

It seems like this was not nearly as prevalent 40 or 50 years ago.

[yellowesty]

A 2-car F1 "team" is really 2 1-car teams. To assure that, the rules prohibit "teammate" drivers from helping one another (e.g., blocking other "teams"). Teamwork in F1 consists of the team sponsor providing cars, coaching, and real-time support for two rather separate efforts to win the race. Each driver's goal is to produce that win for their team (or, if you will, their sub-team). F1's contrived approach to distributing prize money at the end of the season by combining the results of the two 1-car sub-teams to determine the Constructors' Champion creates a linkage between two drivers who, otherwise, would have little common interest. Certainly not enough common interest to cede a race win to another driver.

So what's the surprise here? That Vettel won? Really?

[Neil_Roberts]

F1 hasn't been this interesting in a long time. In that sense, the current drama is good for the sport. It is a grand example of a very simple moral conflict: Victory or Honor?

Are you going to do what you should do, or are you going to do what you want to do? We all make that decision every time the alarm clock goes off. Our decisions in this regard are clear and obvious signals of our current level of maturity.

I don't see this as any different from a driver who takes home the first place trophy because of an oversize engine. Cheating is cheating.

There is another aspect of this drama that I find interesting: Why is it, exactly, that we compete with each other? I have become more interested in why we do things than what or how. For example, what is the real goal for a day at the track? Which one comes closer to attaining that goal, a hollow gold halo or a solid silver symbol of subservience?

[Doug Fisher]

As I mentioned in an earlier post and I paraphrase kinda: Vettel does not represent the best the sport has to offer in my opinion....along with Senna, Schumacher ...

I agree with Dave W. and Roland.

Winning at any cost.....please. It just seems more neurotic than valiant.
I have read a few articles on this past weekends events and several of these article take the position that Vettel is a 'warrior'....born to win....cold and calculating, trained to be ruthless... To me, that sounds more like a person in need of therapy and a broader outlook on life, than it does a Grand Prix 'Champion'.
Vettel acted like a little kid with issues, not a 'warrior', and after all...racing is a sport, not a war. Ask any soldier.

Peter O did make a point when he said "If it's gotten worse it's just a reflection of society as a whole". I would counter with, perhaps...
or maybe its just that racing is much safer and consequence is a smaller value in the equation.... but ! I digress.

[Evl]

Cheating?? Puh-leeze. No way is ignoring a command from the pit wall the same as an oversized engine.

[rickb99]

To find TRUE Formula One champions you have to go back to....

1993 Alian Prost
1992 Nigle Mansell
1990/91 Ayrton Senna

Then if you want REAL quality......

1984 Niki Lauda
1983 Nelson Piquet

And from there on back the quality just continues to go UP and UP.

Until you reach the ultimate CHAMPION.....

1957 Juan Manuel Fangio the one against whom all others must be judged.

He only won FIVE world championships because one day he simply decided he was 'done'. Got out of the car after a race and that was it. And he didn't need a "special car" to do it. He won championships in Maserati's, Ferrari's, Mercedes and Alfa Romeo's.

[grumpyf14d]

Evl,
The cars have the ability to change the size of the engine (horsepower) with a dial on their steering wheel and Weber had his turned down as ordered by the team.

Selling drugs?

Yes Aaron, I do indeed sell drugs and someone once caught me on video doing it, you can see that video here: http://vimeo.com/18769269. I'm the guy with the dark visor on.

[Chuck Skowron]

To find TRUE Formula One champions you have to go back to....

1993 Alian Prost
1992 Nigel Mansell
1990/91 Ayrton Senna

Then if you want REAL quality......

1984 Niki Lauda
1983 Nelson Piquet

And from there on back the quality just continues to go UP and UP.

You could, if you wanted to, find examples of behavior for all 5 of those drivers listed above that would despute the idea at times of them being a "gentleman" and a "sportsman" .

Not so much Lauda and Prost as the other three, but even they exhibited Machiavellian behavior at times to get where they wanted to be.

I won't however, dispute the raw talent and skill shown by those 5 during their careers.

Until you reach the ultimate CHAMPION.....

1957 Juan Manuel Fangio the one against whom all others must be judged.

He only won FIVE world championships because one day he simply decided he was 'done'. Got out of the car after a race and that was it. And he didn't need a "special car" to do it. He won championships in Maserati's, Ferrari's, Mercedes and Alfa Romeo's.

That champion you can't argue about. He really was great in many different respects, not only driving. Although when he raced it goes without saying that it was a very different time in professional racing.


----------

C. Skowron

[a. pettipas]

Yes Aaron, I do indeed sell drugs and someone once caught me on video doing it, you can see that video here: http://vimeo.com/18769269. I'm the guy with the dark visor on.

Wow!... You sure know how to complicate a very simple business.

[Evl]

Evl,
The cars have the ability to change the size of the engine (horsepower) with a dial on their steering wheel and Weber had his turned down as ordered by the team.

The gas pedal does that too. There is no rule that says you have to have the engine map at the setting your team instructs you to, hence it's not cheating.

I'll also point out that we don't know what setting Vettel was using. Or if Webber kept the map in the reduced setting for the two laps he defended.

Did Vettel play "dirty"? Maybe, but did he cheat? No.

[grumpyf14d]

Call it what you want; did Vettel take advantage of an unsuspecting team mate who thought that Vettel would follow team orders and stay behind? Yes he did.

My personal belief is that Vettel had the ability to pass Webber no matter what Webber would do short of crashing both out because he was within the DRS time and he's always been a bit faster coupled with the fact that he was on the softer tire over the last stint while Webber was on the harder tire. But once you put team orders in place a paid driver needs to follow what his team says to do or run the risk of creating a very poor team environment.

Do I agree with team orders, no, but I bet Vettel agreed to them prior to the racing season and that particular race. I'd a have a lot more respect for the guy if he would have come up on the radio and just told the team that he wasn't going to follow team orders, instead he chose to be deceitful and once the incident happened he absolutely lied about why he did it.

From a team principal point of view; I could ill afford to have an employee going against my orders because it sets a very poor precedence and how do I get the gene back in the bottle? I would have made an example out of him and sat him down for the next race. Plenty of guys behind him who would love the chance to drive for RBR.

[Steve Bamford]

From a team principal point of view; I could ill afford to have an employee going against my orders because it sets a very poor precedence and how do I get the gene back in the bottle? I would have made an example out of him and sat him down for the next race. Plenty of guys behind him who would love the chance to drive for RBR.

But do you really think RB would even consider sitting him? Think about it, the reason the team orders were in place was to protect constructor championship points...for the big prize at the end, hundreds of millions of dollars isn't it? With that being the case do you think they would dream of putting a rookie in his seat?

Have a read on how the pie is shared

http://www.hindustantimes.com/motor-...e1-949214.aspx

[grumpyf14d]

But do you really think RB would even consider sitting him? Think about it, the reason the team orders were in place was to protect constructor championship points...for the big prize at the end, hundreds of millions of dollars isn't it? With that being the case do you think they would dream of putting a rookie in his seat?

I absolutely don't expect RBR to sit him but that doesn't mean it isn't the right move to ensure your team remains just that. No need to put a rookie in Seb's place, there are a lot of good drivers that aren't rookies that could take his place, besides rookies don't drive for RBR. Believe me, I've not only thought about it, I've put it in action a few times. I've had to sit a few drivers for the betterment of the team and would do it all over again because it was the right thing to do.

You don't have to go far to see what other teams think of the situation. It's because of the money involved that RBR needs to regain control not only for the sake of RBR but also for the other teams. As we are passing on good articles to read here's one for ya: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106421

Last thing to remember is that F1 is now not just about the driver, it's also about the supporting network. Talented engineers and especially sponsors are as important as a good driver. Which is why good order and discipline are a must.

[TimH]

Depending on what's in his contract, they could withhold his pay for that race.

[zero260]

The best thing about the race besides the race itself was that Bob Varsha was back in place of that mildly hysterical Aussie. Afterwards I tried to watch the IRL race but had to turn it off after about 2 minutes of Diffey's hyper noise.

[Steve Bamford]

I absolutely don't expect RBR to sit him but that doesn't mean it isn't the right move to ensure your team remains just that. No need to put a rookie in Seb's place, there are a lot of good drivers that aren't rookies that could take his place, besides rookies don't drive for RBR. Believe me, I've not only thought about it, I've put it in action a few times. I've had to sit a few drivers for the betterment of the team and would do it all over again because it was the right thing to do.

You don't have to go far to see what other teams think of the situation. It's because of the money involved that RBR needs to regain control not only for the sake of RBR but also for the other teams. As we are passing on good articles to read here's one for ya: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106421

Last thing to remember is that F1 is now not just about the driver, it's also about the supporting network. Talented engineers and especially sponsors are as important as a good driver. Which is why good order and discipline are a must.

I didn't say it wasn't the right thing to do based on ethics, team, etc...I just said it likely won't happen. I agree that in many cases that needs to be done, it just won't happen here.

In another post I did say that it was a team sport requiring not only a great driver, but a great team to win. The team is extremely important.

I don't believe Webber was ambushed, Vettel nearly made it out in front of him in the pits. That was very close. Webber didn't need to be hit over the head that Vettel was trying to pass him from turn one on. I did miss why with DRS he didn't pass him on the front straight though or why he was unable to.

[problemchild]

I think RBR is delighted with the way it all played out.

Their number one driver scored max points toward the Drivers Championship. The team scored maximum points toward the Manufacturers Championship.

While all us old fogies worry about honor and sportsmanship, the Red Bull target market takes great delight at the outrage their young hero is creating with the establishment.

Why does Monster sponsor Paul Tracy and the Busch brothers? Offending traditionalistss and old fogies is part of the master plan. Even Roger Penske is employing obnoxious brats these days!

[Rolling Stone]

I lived in a certain country twice....brilliant engineers,very disciplined,always are and always will be "Arrogant "tho..the "we are the best" attitude and it shows..amazing Road car builders and F1 drivers...doesnt make it right tho ,Vettel is in a TEAM.There again, youth and a brilliant driver its hard taking orders sometimes :>) ask Schumacher too ;>)....just my 2 duetchmarks worth

[Blah]

Vettel is the big bosses (read owner) blue eyed boy, my 5 cents says nothing will b done. Hence the topcover comment from Weber. Revenge is a dish best served cold, could be an nteresting season.

[rickb99]

......Yes Aaron, I do indeed sell drugs and someone once caught me on video doing it, you can see that video here: http://vimeo.com/18769269. I'm the guy with the dark visor on.

MAN! That is the ultimate Navy aviation video! Makes me wish I was back at Yankee Station chasing the Ranger or the Ticonderoga on plane guard duty.

The F4 pilots used to give us a real show on occasion.

[Offcamber1]

Vettel acted like a little kid with issues, not a 'warrior', and after all...racing is a sport, not a war. Ask any soldier.

Professional racing is a business, not a sport. In my opinion it ceased being a sport long ago and I would put pinpoint the exact date as April 7, 1968.

But Doug's point about it not being a war is well taken.

YMMV

Kip

[gcoffin]

72 starts ....33 poles....... 25 wins........two world championships ........and winner of the 500

[DanW]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/21967790

[Jnovak]

72 starts ....33 poles....... 25 wins........two world championships ........and winner of the 500

I doubt that anyone will ever achieve a similar record, ever. Amazing to say the least.

[gcoffin]

I saw Clark's 500 winning car on display at the Oregon State Fair in 1968........at 12 years old it was the moment I knew I would race.

[grumpyf14d]

52..........29...........24............5 world championships in 8 years with 4 different manufacturers. Him and Clark were a class act, something I can't say Seb will ever be.

Rick, as Bill Murray once said "it's the stories...that one time with the cow..." We'd love to have you once again hanging out in the wake soking up some JP5. There have been quite a few nights where the comfort of being able to see the PG meant a slider and my rack was less than a minute away. Thanks for being there for us!

[DanW]

http://www.yallaf1.com/2013/04/01/re...or-chinese-gp/

[rickb99]

HOPE that's true but my guess is it's an APRIL 1 thing

[TimH]

HOPE that's true but my guess is it's an APRIL 1 thing

No question about that, but it sure is well written.

A little too niche for The Onion.

[Jnovak]

52..........29...........24............5 world championships in 8 years with 4 different manufacturers. Him and Clark were a class act, something I can't say Seb will ever be.

Rick, as Bill Murray once said "it's the stories...that one time with the cow..." We'd love to have you once again hanging out in the wake soking up some JP5. There have been quite a few nights where the comfort of being able to see the PG meant a slider and my rack was less than a minute away. Thanks for being there for us!

No doubt that Fangio was the best.
Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeQ_j...yer_detailpage

[problemchild]

http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/86...Goading-Vettel-

[Steve Bamford]

http://www.planetf1.com/editorial/86...Goading-Vettel-

Greg just to be clear, I am ignoring all team orders next week at VIR as usual.

[problemchild]

Greg just to be clear, I am ignoring all team orders next week at VIR as usual.

That will make 5 of us.