Vintage Supervee Racing

[ianashdown]

I have been watching the Vintage Supervee scene for a while as I hope to out racing one sometime soon and I have a few observations and several questions that I would like to put out there.

To my way of thinking Supervees on the late 70’s, early 80’s are quite nice little cars. They have quite good performance without being too scary for the older hobby driver, and running one can be reasonably inexpensive. If one goes for an 1800cc engine they can be tuned to make about the same power as a 1600 but at a lot lower stress levels resulting in a reasonably long service interval and therefore more reasonable cost. The tires, being fairly small ought not to be too expensive; the brakes are VW so again shouldn’t be too expensive either.

It seems to me that the performance to cost ratio is quite favorable. So why then are Supervees regarded like the ‘red-headed-stepchildren’ of vintage racing? At one time these cars were the pathway to Indy Cars and were driven but many of the great drivers.

So what is holding back Vintage Supervee racing?

I’m sure there are more cars out there that haven’t seen the track in many years; what will it take to get more cars out on to the track? The Vintage Formula Atlantics are getting to be well respected and have races at premium historic events, what can we do to elevate Supervee Racing to a similar level?

Is the lack of a coordinated and enthusiastic community part of it? The lack of
an individual identity or the lack of a specific class championship with actual prize money etc perhaps? Is there a need for cars to be available without the commitment of ownership? What is missing that might get this class rolling again?

I’m prepared to put in some effort in to trying to elevate this class if there is sufficient interest from other like minded owners and or drivers. There obviously has to be some level of self motivation as I’m not looking to get in to a cat-herding exercise! I’d be prepared to try and round up some industry product sponsorships and may even be able to justify a small prize fund. Could we utilize new media outlets and the easily available in-car footage to produce some ‘exposure’ for participants?

I’d be very interested to hear comments and suggestions from anyone who has an interest in seeing Supervee elevated on the vintage scene.

Ian Ashdown
San Clemente, CA

[Paddy O'Brien]

The problem with supervee was always the same thing, the motor. The aircooled motors had a well deserved reputation as hand grenades and the water cooled motors had problems too. Bertils has retired so how many shops know how to build them properly? And frankly, the small tires,while cheaper, just are not as sexy as big fat Atlantic tires, yet the cost of running a SV is just as much as an Atlantic. Otherwise neat cars.

[ianashdown]

My understanding is that the water cooled motors at 1800cc tuned to make about 200 HP are good for a season of racing, no longer the grenades that the 1600cc race engines were back in the early 80's. and much less to rebuild than a BDA or 4AGE. There are several places on the west coast that build/rebuild aircooled VW motors.

Mk9's are a lot cheaper to maintain than LD200's.

I feel the cost should be significantly lower than Atlantic and with the smaller tires driving near the limit should be at more reasonable speeds for the vintage driver - car that is not driver - or maybe both!

Ian

[TED K.]

My understanding is that the water cooled motors at 1800cc tuned to make about 200 HP are good for a season of racing, no longer the grenades that the 1600cc race engines were back in the early 80's. and much less to rebuild than a BDA or 4AGE. There are several places on the west coast that build/rebuild aircooled VW motors.

Mk9's are a lot cheaper to maintain than LD200's.

I feel the cost should be significantly lower than Atlantic and with the smaller tires driving near the limit should be at more reasonable speeds for the vintage driver - car that is not driver - or maybe both!

Ian

Supervees like any race car are Not cheap. When you break one, the Parts are NOT easy to find. They are also Not slow-the record for a FSV at Texas World Speedway[ ??] held by Danny O. in a 1970 Wheeler was 170 mph. Mine, geared for a hill[ Would cross the finish line at 138 to 140mph.

[ianashdown]

I completely agree, these are not toy cars, but real racing machines and definitely quick. Not as quick as an Atlantic car who's tires are almost 50% bigger and have 40 more BHP.

If we are comparing vintage SV to vintage FAtl, parts for neither are easy to find, much the same for both. The cost for car parts is probably much the same whichever you choose. Gears and brakes definitely more for an Atlantic car.

My belief is that an SV car has a good level of performance at less cost that Atlantic, which for me has just a bit too much performance, grip etc for my comfort.

Ian

[Rick Kirchner]

Ian - when are you going to come out with VARA or HSR-west (now SVRA)? We had a pretty healthy group of RT5s with the occasional flat-bottom Lola, an 80's March, a Martini, an Anson, and a couple of air-cooled cars. If you want to discuss running costs then Richard Wilkinson or Vince Tjmeland at Sabina would be a good source of data. Fields are down significantly from three years ago though.

IMHO, the problem with SVs being represented lies in that part of the vintage crowd that believes life stopped in 1972. to them, a FC has a 1000cc Cossie with that wacky single barrel weber conversion - and damn the cost.

Most folks do the "vintage thing" and throw out those dumb-a$$ SCCA engine rules and build something of the appropriate power using the best parts they can find/afford. Doing more will just result in a gearbox full of junk. What people told me is that a stock 1800 head looks like a race-prepped 1600 but a lot stronger. VARA changed the rules to allow 2L air cooled motors which are a lot more plentiful (finding a 1700 crank is tough - the off-road and hot rod crowd turned most 1700s into 2L by offset grinding the crank) in hopes of bringing those cars out to be more competitive with the flat-bottomed water cooled cars. In reality though, there just aren't a lot of air-cooled cars around anymore, and not very many flat-bottom water-cooled cars either.

I had a gorgeous air-cooled SV, a royale RP-14 serno 1, ex-bill scott, that I spent 14 years restoring and is now a basket case again (my retirement project). That was the result of a very light impact that shortened the tub 1" to the left. The early cars leave you pretty exposed. the royale's front hoop was held on with just 40 rivits or so.

Tires for the early 6" wheels are pretty much unavailable so either FF tires (my car didn't seem to like the cantilevered rears) or dunlop VFF treads. cars with 6s and 8s use FC tires. I guess with the loss of GY only hoosiers will be available now.

I'd think the costs between a SV and Atlantic are hardly comparable. Motor costs are probably 3-4x for the atlantic, tires are more expensive, and the respective gearboxes are about the same - most of the time when I see SVs DNF or parked it's usually due to ignition problems (hard to find obsolete Bosch stuff), EFI problems, and gearbox issues.

[Brett Lane]

I had an '83 RT-5, which was converted to a C sport with a Beasley body in the '90's. I later sold the car to a guy in Ecuador.

Hindsight tells me I should have left it in it's original state. I remember trying to reassemble the head, only to send it to Bertils. He was the only person in the country who really knew how to build these engines, AFAICR. Kinsler had the fuel injection parts, but I don't know if they still do. With Bertils retired, I just don't know how to maintain these engines- other Ralt parts, I'm sure they are still out there though...

[Rick Kirchner]

thereare still guys who run VWs in GT, so somebody builds 'em

[SEComposites]

There must be plenty of 2ltr Toyota motors around - convert them to F3 cars!

[Jim Gustafson]

I ran a watercooled Super Vee for years in SCCA, until 2004, with good success. For vintage racing, the watercooled 1800 should go quite a long time between rebuilds.

VW retained the same block dimensions, and bolt pattern at the back of the engine, so if one were so inclined, you could drop a newer VW engine in and go for thousands of miles.
www.eurospecsport.com is a source for all things race related for these newer engines.

My '87 RT-5 had 8 & 10' wheels and looked pretty racey, and used the same brake calipers as an FA. The Mark 8 box is inexpensive to maintain. A very potent package for a very reasonable price.

Jim Gustafson

[Daryl DeArman]

I ran a watercooled Super Vee for years in SCCA, until 2004, with good success. For vintage racing, the watercooled 1800 should go quite a long time between rebuilds.

Something different about the specs of the WC1800 in SCCA v. Vintage trim? Or are you referring to the vintage environment where they are more high-speed parade like vs. vintage clubs that actually race?

I've always kept one eye on vintage FSV, I love the early AC non-wing cars. I've seen more than one Ralt RT-5 being offered at a great price but the frequent expensive rebuilds keep me from going that route. I'd think that any of the top shelf FV builders could assemble a great quality AC motor if the correct parts where obtainable.

[Jim Gustafson]

When I mentioned the WC 1.8 going quite awhile in vintage racing, it's because the sessions/races are often only half the length of an SCCA race, and do you really care if you shift at say 7500 rpm, vs redline, like you might be inclined to do at a SCCA National?

If you are interested in cars with the air cooled engine, there are many suppliers and tuners available. The engines are used in many different types of race cars, sand rails, dune buggies, off road vehicles etc. Google VW race engines and see what comes up. There are alot of really neat SV chassis sitting around that can be had cheap.

Jim Gustafson

[Daryl DeArman]

When I mentioned the WC 1.8 going quite awhile in vintage racing, it's because the sessions/races are often only half the length of an SCCA race, and do you really care if you shift at say 7500 rpm, vs redline, like you might be inclined to do at a SCCA National?

If you are interested in cars with the air cooled engine, there are many suppliers and tuners available. The engines are used in many different types of race cars, sand rails, dune buggies, off road vehicles etc. Google VW race engines and see what comes up. There are alot of really neat SV chassis sitting around that can be had cheap.

Jim Gustafson

Thanks for the response Jim. I was thinking perhaps different parts were permitted increasing longevity in hours, not weekends. As to track hours seems it would be highly dependent on the vintage organization as some offer more track time than a typical National, some less.

I'm not sure if your question was rhetorical regarding shift point; my shift point as a percentage of redline would be directly proportional to the proximity of my nearest competitor, sanctioning body is irrelevant.

[Amon]

Jim,

Didn't you use to race a late 70's March SV in vintage?

Mark

[Jim Gustafson]

Mark I owned a March 83v, one of only three made. I raced this in SCCA from 1987 thru 1996, and I then raced a Ralt RT-5 thru 2004. So I raced Super Vee's for nearly 20 years, but never in Vintage. I raced a Swift FA from 2005 thru the SCCA Run-Offs in 2009. I took this car with me into vintage racing, finally in 2010.

Cheers,
Jim Gustafson

[ianashdown]

Hi,

I heard today about a group who are putting together some races for Vintage Supervees. I believe it may be a west coast group, but I'm not sure.

Does anyone know anything about this, and maybe have a contact?

Many thanks,

Ian

[Robert J. Alder]

Probably Ed Swart at HSR-West, now SVRA-West or maybe VARA

http://www.hsrwestrace.com/
http://www.vararacing.com/

[Tom Fraelich]

Ian:
I can't pretend to speak with any authority about the vintage super vee scene on the west coast. I think you've had several responses from folks knowledgeable about the cars and drivers in VARA and the Pacific northwest.
I can, however, speak from some experience about SV racing here in the East. I've actively raced a '79 March SV since the late 90's. I've run with HSR, SVRA, VARAC, Lime Rock Vintage Festival. etc. at tracks from Mt. Tremblant to West Palm Beach.
I bought my car originally as an entry into the Monoposto F70 series. Monoposto rules used 1979 as a cut-off date for the F70 cars and that continues to be the case to this day.
They also mandate that water cooled super vees run the 1600cc engines. In reality, the 1800cc engine was a concession given to the cars when SCCA moved them into Formula Atlantic.
For many years most of the eastern groups (SVRA) deferred to Monoposto for their formula car rules and eligibility. If you asked the answer was "see Monoposto rules". What this meant was only a very few water cooled Super Vees were (and are currently) legal Monoposto cars since 1979 was the first full year for the water cooled cars (and the last year of F70 eligibility). This remained a limiting factor for many years as the influence of Monoposto was dominant here in the East. Again, I have no idea how things were evolving out west.
We had a small core group of SV drivers with legitimate F70 cars and we ran often and successfully with the flat bottom Atlantics and F2 cars in good sized fields. We were never the dominant class by any means but we had an appropriate place to run and good competition.
In 2001 our late friend Domenick Billera worked tirelessly to organize a 30 year reunion for ALL Super Vees at Watlins Glen in assosciation with SVRA. We had what was and remains the largest gathering of SV's since the Gold Cup, over two dozen SV's from the early Beach air-cooled car to current Atlantic spec RT5's. It was a glorious event and a tribute to the herculean effort put forth by Dom. And it was the last time we've seen any significant number of cars. Why?
As Monoposto's influence waned and scantioning bodies started to allow more modern cars to participate the entire F70 group fell apart, not just Super Vee. We were just the collateral damage. We no longer saw full grids of F70 cars but instead RT4's then RT41's soon to be followed by Indy Lites and current Swift Atlantic cars. You may think vintage racing is not competitive but no one I race with wants to drive their ass off in a $150,00 vintage F2 car just to end up 10th behind 9 Indy Lites cars. The F70 cars have become an insignificant side show and our Super Vees are just one of the victims.
There are exceptions of course. The Lime Rock Festival abides by the Monoposto rules and we get full grids of wonderful F70 cars and great racing. You can't bring your Indy Lites car or your 016 Swift so we get good, fair competition and see cars we otherwise don't get to see. Proof positive that the cars are out there and people will run them if the format makes sense.
So what can you do? What we've all done. Get your car out there, run it as often as you can with whoever will have you. Have as much fun as you possibly can. Don't worry about prize funds or corporate sponsors, put that effort into running a car and show others how much fun it can be. Oh and by the way, take my word for it 1600 or 1800, big tires or little tires, MK9 or LD200.........it ain't CHEAP. Thomas Fraelich Monoposto Super Vee Director.

[S Lathrop]

Ian;

I built cars for both the air cooled and water cooled versions of FSV. I built the car that won the last air cooled championship. There is a lot to that story.

If I was looking at an early FSV, I would consider doing an air cooled car. There was a serious weakness in those engines but I know of a very simple fix for that problem. Parts for those engines are still available if you go to the larger displacement that was the stock size. You are looking at using a Porsche 914 engine.

The air cooled cars were very easy to setup because they have a very low CG and minimal mass behind the driver. All the other chassis parts were mostly VW parts that can still be had in the street car market.

Tires are the current FC offerings. The spec tire for the F2000 pro series is giving 300 miles of good performance with a FC. With a FSV the tires should be good for 400 miles. Trick is to get a good shock valving/spring package.

This package would be the least expensive to build and maintain. Infact, an air cooled car would not be all that expensive to build new if you wanted to go to that trouble.

If I wanted to do something other than one of my cars, I would look for an air cooled Tui. That was a beauty.

[Rick Kirchner]

yeah there was a red Tui cigar car that was in Utah and bastardized as an autocrosser - monster tires and a T1 midget style (SCAT) motor and it is a beaut.

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/oth...51557941la.htm

A lot of SVs got hacked up into autocross specials.

[Merak]

yeah there was a red Tui cigar car that was in Utah and bastardized as an autocrosser - monster tires and a T1 midget style (SCAT) motor and it is a beaut.

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/oth...51557941la.htm

A lot of SVs got hacked up into autocross specials.

Hi Rick, That used to be my car and yes I did get it from Utah. Apart from the fat tires and the 2 liter engine it was a relatively unmolested car. I sold it back to Utah (strangely enough) about 4 years ago. I do not know if the car has seen the light of day since. Mike.

[Rick Kirchner]

All it would take to make that car vintage again is a new set of wheels and a 1600 type III - I think that is a pre-TY-IV car. If I didn't have the royale to fix and a 84 VD FF to build I'd hunt it down and make an offer the owner couldn't refuse.

the Zinks also had a beautiful oval tub. They make my royale look positively crude in comparison.

[fletch]

so i've run my 1979 March F/SV for the last six seasons with the Monoposto group, primarily in the mid west.
it's a 1600 cc water cooled motor with Bosch/kugelfischer mechanical FI. i've had very good performance and reliability with the package and at most tracks (including Road America), i can beat most of the true 1600 cc atlantics.
now granted it's not built with the same parts as the rules required back in the SCCA pro series days and i rebuild the engine every 16 to 20 hours, but it's worked for me.
i also run F 2000 tires, which i get used form the Pro or SCCA guys.
my past SCCA expierence was with F/V and FF's and i believe the cost of running this March is closer to the FF world than the atlantic world.
it is frustating that there aren't more F/SV competing, because i know they are out there.
i plan on running 3 or 4 weekends again this season and would sure love to see some more F/SV's as i believe it really is very good value for the $$.

fletch
1979 March F/SV

[Mike McHugh]

Ian,
I raced an Anson SV in Pro races, and in Reg/Nat races till the late '90's.
As an FA in Club Racing, I had the absolute lap record at Laguna for most of the '90's.
So....plenty fast, and a better fun/$ ratio than a true FA.

Parts availability is great, as I bought the entire Anson company, and have it near San Francisco.

If I sell the Anson SA-6 that I'm autocrossing now, I will restore my Zink Z-14 SV.

Don't let anyone talk you out of a Super Vee.

Mike McHugh
650-594-1309
593-5040

[La Scuderia Raggi]

So Mike if you restore your Z14 does that mean I have to find my old Z14 and shadow you around like we did in the '80's?

[Mike McHugh]

Why, yes, Chuck, you do...Colleena says.
That was great fun, and comradery.
Mike

[La Scuderia Raggi]

I'm just about to get this (new to me) VanDiemen back on track next Friday. Give me a year or two. Hey wait, I just got back into FC! I've either come full circle, or dementia has set in!
Head on out to a Regional (that's all there is in SFR) some weekend and we can catch up.
Saw Colleena on TV a couple of weeks ago, she looks much better with her helmet off!

[Dee]

I co- drive the penske/davy jones ralt rt-5 with john morton, these cars in the right hands are every bit as fast as an atlantic. More and more cars are coming out on the west coast. Al arciero is currently restoring one of his cars to race. We may get an invite to monterey soon (cross your fingers) as a last note the 1800 cc motors are good for 25 hours with a redline of 8100 rpms. Bearings,rings,and head rebuild and your good to go again.
all the best,
dee

[Rick Kirchner]

Monterey??? I guess I'll have to get going on that tub.....

[Ikeda]

There are currently four RT5's and one Anson SA4 racing in the Northwest. This summer we hope to have another SA4 running. I currently race the SA4 and I am on my fourth season on the bottom end and I check the head each season. We can be competitive with the RT4's and with DB4's depending on the tune of the engine and the driver.

Monterey would be cool.

Tim Bland
84 Anson SA4