keep in mind when you talk about FC pro series there are actually 3. while its true the F2kCS is the closest to SCCA rules the other 2 are also drawing away young drivers that used to learn their craft competing at SCCA as well as the pro series. I am quite sure Dave W will never forget Arie Jr. and David Pook won the Runoffs for Cape after a pro season with them as well.
Kevin Firlein Autosport,Inc.
Runoffs 1 Gold 3 Silver 3 bronze, 8 Divisional , 6 Regional Champs , 3x Drivers of the year awards
[quote=KevinFirlein;359613]keep in mind when you talk about FC pro series there are actually 3. while its true the F2kCS is the closest to SCCA rules the other 2 are also drawing away young drivers that used to learn their craft competing at SCCA as well as the pro series. quote]
True. The USF2000 series doesn't even use an approved engine for club so that is not trickling down anytime soon. At least not the primary class. I am not familiar with the other series so I don't know about that one.
Ken
In a nutshell
Just for sake of discussion.
Figure 420 pro entries in F2000 per year. And about 240 in F1600 pro per year.
So many things play into this picture.
FV may be popular. How many $65,000 FVs are out there? That is about the cost of an average pro car ready to go (used).
1998 was the heyday. Cars were flipping each season as new models came out from Ralph's factory every year. But a car was probably only $30,000 new. There was not $12,000 worth of DA hanging on it. You could sell last years car for $25,000.
We were all making money on the Dot.Com ramp up. There was no national debt, and the biggest concern was Bill's girlfriend.
By 2000 the Dot.Com deal had crashed, we all thought we had lost 1/2 our retirement savings. Florida was screwing up every election they could. Cars were now costing $42,000 new.
By 2005, some of us had switched to being home builders and "flippers", life was good. $$$ Thus the Morgan Homes entries at the Runons. New pro cars were $65,000. data on the car was costing more than the engine, especially if you hired somebody to read it to you.
Then, as 2007 dawned, we were all hosed. Market crashed, some of us were unemployed, the older set saw their IRAs vanish, You couldn't get a second mortage to buy the $85,000 pro car. Us builders, if we found a bank open, it wasn't about to lend us money to build a house. The only people with money were lawyers and folks dealing real estate in Manhattan.
2012, the serious addicts don't go on family vacations, eat all their meals at Subway, drive 20 year old street cars, don't invest in retirement accounts, and hope kids from South America will rent their cars. That way they can use the used tires on off weekends. The current crop of pro cars are probably $87,000+ with all the DA, and top shelf gear. $110,000 if you need to buy it from Haas to enter Dan's Series.
Mike's acount is excellent.
I would add a comparison to medium family income. In Mike's first example of $30,000 cars, medium family income was about $40,000.
When a new car is selling at about 50% of medium family income as they were in the 1970's, car sales were in the 100 per year for some classed. I think the breaking point is something just over 100%. We have been there for several years.
The only thing that is saving the classes today is that technology is advancing so slowly that good cars remain competitive for decades or longer.
My analysis is for the amature or semi-pro racer. The guy who does this as a hobby on current income.
Originally Posted by RobLav
I think you've hit the nail on the head for all car groups. SCCA used to be the only way for people to go racing and it had a limited number of classes. Now, for someone who wants to drive on the track, they can take their Porsche, Audi, Ferarri, Miata, BMW, Subaru (yes, Subaru) or any other car out with thier car club. Not to mention the other clubs that let everyone in (SCDA, COM, etc). Low car counts are a problem for all of the car clubs, not just SCCA.
I dont see much light in the tunnel either, especially when so many of the young kids would rather sit in a chair with the controller in their hands, as compared to actually racing!!! I sure sound like an old fart!!!
But....I also agree, that the increasing costs have probably had the most to do with it........
Trolling through this thread I have a response and a suggestion to Post #42, my pal Scott Gesford.
1. Race something, a 410 sprinter of your F2000 car, anything, all your girls will love going to the races !
2. Prime time for FC was, in fact, 1970. When I won my National Championship at the inaugural Road Atlanta Runoffs [or American Road Race of Champions as it was called then. Yup, the ARRC, just like Atlanta Regions Regional Class Championships currently held at the same track at the same time of year] in my 1000cc Cosworth SCA engined Brabham BT-21B.
C. Make a doctor appointment, your meds need an adjustment !
Last edited by Michael Rand; 09.10.12 at 9:56 PM.
Livengood has won pro races with a 35k Van Diemen...I offered him my 35k VD to do it again this year but he is understandably committed to RFR for now...
We've all witnessed this year the 87k+ new designs not threatening to outpace the older cars anytime soon; there are some very bright minds collaborating with some very fast drivers to get this done but there hasn't been a lot of progress made to this point... Summit Point qualifying shows Connery in his RFR closest almost 8/10 adrift of La Rocca and Gooden...unless circumstance intervenes and throws it wide open, like the weather @SP that helped a top-shelf driver in a 87k+ new(er) design win...and brand new VD chassis with whizzy, hi-$$$ uprights, calipers, etc. seem to offer no advantage over the veterans.
aaron
Unless the kid is from Greenwich or Caracas, he can't afford a $90,000 car.
The most sought after car on the used market the last 2 years has been the old FM. They are moving to country clubs. The owner can take off early on a Thursday afternoon, drive to the club, raise the door, jump in the car, start it up, back out and go cut some laps with his buddies. Add to that, you can buy a top dog FM for about $25,000 and go win the Runons or race in Bruce's pro series.
If you use a cost/performance index the old Reynards and 93-95 VDs provide a lot of fun for the buck. You can buy a $12,000 car and turn 1:30s at Road Atlanta. But, for the Runons these cars are like taking a knife to a gunfight. And in reality, it costs as much to maintain and race a '89 Reynard as a 2011 RFR. Just the initial cost to get in the program is lower.
It's not just that. Look at the average 22-25 year old, recently out of college. $40,000 - $100,000 in student loans. I had $54k after 4 years at Penn State. And unless they have an engineering degree, chances are they're working at Panera or Starbucks making around $10 an hour and barely scratching the surface of those loans. There's just no spare change to even consider road racing for most young adults.
And SCCA club racing is a pretty horrible product when you look at it. Long weekends, little track time, very different classes on track at the same time (I love lapping sports racers and out qualifying FA in Regionals), poor judgement by officials (sitting on the grid at VIR at 5:30pm on Sunday for 25 mins while they pull a spec wrecker in, which was sitting out there for the last two races. And they had already cut our qualifying short on Saturday because of SM cleanup). It's hard to convince a new person that it's worth it, especially when they can go run an autocross for $30 and no effort at all (except getting up early on a Sunday and cleaning out your street car). Side note, the region where I went to college has a few Saturday night events now, to help the lazy/hungover college crowd show up. Weird concept that, changing something because the paying customer wanted it.
Chris
I thought the appearance of the Metrik would clue people in to why I haven't been racing.
2010 was a lost year for me. Rsport did a lot of crash damage repair, guess who took one for the team and said, don't worry, I'll go later.
2011-2012. Metrik build. What can I say, it took a lot longer than planned.
I will be racing something, somewhere next year on some level, on such surface etc etc
I have no idea what the hell you are talking about for item 2. My meds are fine, everyone says I'm so much nicer now.
Frog,
I still think I have the cost/performance index covered. And before JR chimes in only when I'm not driving.
Jim,
Isn't the newest car you have ever owned 1990 vintage? Somehow I don't think the new car builders are waiting by their mailboxes for your check.
1991, as soon as they can design a faster one I may be in the market
I made the jump from shifter karts to a FC in 2005 at the age of 18 and I started at the club level hoping to move up. After a few years of picking up the skill of the sport and respecting it I wanted to move to SCCA. After attending a few events whether it be a regional, national or run offs and talking to drivers everything sounded chaotic. Its not so much the price tag of attending the events but the car count for the FC class and open wheel classes are just slowly dropping. Take this years run offs for example, 10 cars in the National Championship. I don't even consider this a race, the drivers just over paid for practice and seat time and camping. The way I look at is the local clubs are picking up the guys SCCA pissed off and they are going to benefit from this.
Because racecar...
Frog-Mike-Bob, all you guys have to do is make the Runoffs a double-points event and ... forty-car field, pretty girls, magazine articles, TV coverage on Top Gear ... problem solved!
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Stan;
I agree that the runoffs should be part of the F2000 series. It would be a win/win for the contestants, SCCA and F2000.
Problem is that a driver would have to find enough Club Nationals that did not conflict with other events. The risk of damaging a car appears to be higher at a club event than a pro race. The cost per available lap is better at the pro races than a club race. Most of the F2000 Masters (60% or more of the entries) would rather not do club races any longer (my impression only).
The dumb part is that all the drivers in the F2000 hold SCCA National licenses and are SCCA members.
My suggestion would be that the top 20 of the F2000 get invites and they would qualify if they met the minimum in division participation requirements.
But I see this as a threat to the SCCA's new masters program. So it won't fly.
Actually, starting in 2012, SCCA Pro licences are now required for the F2KCS, and they do not qualify for club racing.
SCCA club licenses, likewise, no longer qualify for the F2KCS.
Dave Weitzenhof
If Steve and Dave correct, and I have no reason to suspect they are not, then this is a classic case of self-inflicted harm...Blazing Saddles style.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Club license
Dave,
Back in the early 70's my friend Tim Evens was the 2 Ltr. Can-Am Champion, yet the following year, SCCA didn't want to give him a SCCA National license, because he had not done the minimum number of Nationals needed for renewal !
So maybe it's been a division between the two licensing groups for a while.
If my fading memory serves, then this Amateur/Pro wall was erected from SCCA Day 1
Through 2011 all I had was an SCCA National license, and running F2KCS was not a problem. We still had to register for the series to run multiple events, but the amateur license was not a barrier.
That probably did not apply to other SCCA pro series (like Trans Am) that were fully sanctioned by the SCCA.
Dave Weitzenhof
An SCCA Pro Racing license is on the list as being OK for Regional events. GCR page 22.
I could not find anything about SCCA Pro in National events.
thought you had to have a SCCA Nat'l to get a SCCA Pro license or special waive from other org......then u wud think it would supercede a Reg'l-Nat'l and going to those events is no problem 1 pro equals 10 Reg'ls for renewal, LOL!!
As per FC count.....FC became popular when the pro FSV series died out and attempts to revive a pro series to replace it at less than pro-Atlantic (FA) came and went.....and came and went (RIP Dan)....and came a.............we and Nat'ls get the spill-off of the cars....and now there are spilloffs of the affordable winged classes....FE no gear changes Nifty, no diffusers nifty (didn't realize I was that lazy), etc for FB pros and cons although at 9K an engine u might as well drive a FC for some Comp!! off the shelf 1000 won't cut it
Last edited by Modo; 10.09.12 at 3:18 PM.
My Pro/Am wall comment was referencing the ancient historic SCCA vs USAC frictions, rather than more recent Pro/Am cross-licensing experiences, of which I have none to offer... No more wall references, I promise.
(In my little old irrelevant and irreverent universe, I would like to see the Pro Club and Amateur Club participants transition to a single, annual SCCA Clubwide Pro/Am Runoffs event. The expansion of the big get together offering the prospect of full fields once more; heat races, if necessary. A Big, Disruptive, Critical Mass Event that is nationally attractive to participants, sponsors, spectators, vendors, and TV Advertisers. That is all.)
Rick
Keith,
I'm pretty sure that now the pro races will qualify to meet the minimum # of events/finishes for getting a National license, but you still need the separate National license to run Nationals, AFAIK.
IMO, it's just another licensing fee the SCCA wants to collect.
Dave Weitzenhof
License
Oh, the separate fee, sounds like the real reason !
Learning how to profit from the airlines.
F-2000 & Runoffs
Frog-Mike-Bob, all you guys have to do is make the Runoffs a double-points event and ... forty-car field, pretty girls, magazine articles, TV coverage on Top Gear ... problem solved!
That's the best idea I have heard in a long time concerning club racing.
I'm very curious what Bob W, Al G, little Al G, Mike & Mike think about this.
Rob Nicholas
Many posts up the thread someone mentioned the good ol' days at Road Atlanta. I have been involved with SCCA since the Runoffs were held there and although I have never raced a Runoffs I know alot of people who do.
At Atlanta it seems that the biggest expense was getting there. At the time I lived in Colorado and couldn't afford to make that trek. Others did and had a good time. From my view of it it seemed like a really well run National, organized by the Atlanta Region and attended by the Club heirarchy in a supervisory role.
When the Runoffs moved to Mid Ohio alot of my friends who went were very disappointed at how things cost so much there. They had never paid for camping at the races. Everything seemed to have a $$ attached. Most that I knew quit going.
Topeka???
Road America, now there you go. A track that has a pedigree (not that M-O didn't) and should be a joy to race on. I bet that they'll get 1000 entries if that many people could qualify. Wait, why did the entries stay roughly the same as Topeka??? Oh, I get it. Now everything costs extra.
All of this seems to be directly related to the amount of money the track pays the ClubHouse for hosting the event. The $$ are going the wrong way, as was posted in the clowns paying the circus comment. What amount of money did Valvoline pay to be the presenting sponsor? How about Kohler? Seems like job 1 should be to get an actual Sponsor for the Runoffs, cut the "ransom" that is charged the track to near nothing and if the ClubHouse needs to make some # of 100's of thousands be honest and add it to the entry fee. At least the racer would then feel like he was paying an entry fee commensurate with the stature of the event, not a bunch of money grab fees to the track.
I know that this plan would never work. The way it really goes is that if the ClubHouse could actually get a sponsor they would bottom-line all of that money, they would then charge the track more "ransom" because now the event has more panache, they would raise the entry fees for the same reason, and the track would raise all of the infrastructure fees to recoup their investment.
Oh well, I never figured that I could afford it at Atlanta.
I read somewhere in the Minutes that HQ is looking at just outright renting a track for the Runoffs and get a sponsor to help pay for it - like the Runoffs at Road Atlanta used to be with the local region doing the renting. Being a very long term Atlanta Region member I remember, somewhat, all of this. Since the track is rented then the Club can say what is to be charged for and we, as members, have more influence. Write your letters . . . . .
Jim
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