Cockpit Opening

[Rick Ross]

Anything is possible as Bill said "how much money do you want to spend." I will post photos of an updated tub as soon as I dump some older ones that are preventing me from doing so.

Eric

Eric,

Please post the photos when you are able......I would love to see them. Thanks.

[Steve Davis]

How do the minimum cockpit opening measurements account for the use of the removable U shape head rest/helmet bolster systems? Would the bolster system be removed before measurements are made for the cockpit opening.

Brian

Brian,
I'm sure you're aware that any sort of 'head surround' is prohibited in FV. Driver MUST be able to enter and exit the car "without manipulation of any part or panel". Of course, that rule MIGHT get changed due to all the new safety concerns, but for the moment, even the easily removable head bolsters (a la FE) are illegal in the class.

Steve, FV80

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

I've seen cars (FC?) with head bolsters mounted on hinges to the bodywork. Technically the bolsters are not removed but they rotate up to allow the driver to get in and out of the cockpit.

If there's one chassis FV rule modification I'd like to see it would be to allow head bolsters as seen and used in most formula cars.

Jean

Brian,
I'm sure you're aware that any sort of 'head surround' is prohibited in FV. Driver MUST be able to enter and exit the car "without manipulation of any part or panel". Of course, that rule MIGHT get changed due to all the new safety concerns, but for the moment, even the easily removable head bolsters (a la FE) are illegal in the class.

Steve, FV80

[quartzracer]

Ross,

Tried down loading, keep getting the "invalid format." I will have to wait for Jr. to come over.

Eric

[Daryl DeArman]

...Not much room for movement of my head so any impact between my helmet and the tubing would have very little velocity but I also don't have any room for padding either.

I would put some padding on the rollbar next to your head. I went off in the Buss-stop at The Glen, going sideways thru the gravel furrows. My head bounced off the padding each time I hit the next groove, and I had quite a sore neck afterwards.

Eric Medlen

[Purple Frog]

The Eric Medlen Project

[Lotus7]

from another thread posted today .....

[R. Pare]

It scares me to see DW still does not use a surround like was made for LaRue and others.

Back in the first half of the '90's, Race Car Engineering published an article on the head surround research done by McLaren at a crash test facility. Eye opening results, to say the least.

Long story short, they tested the current car with no side padding at all, and then with progressively thicker padding until it almost touched the helmet. The tests were 30mph side slappers into a solid barrier.

Results: 160+ G's to the head with no padding - instant death. Progressively less G's with progressively thicker padding with about 60 G's with it about an inch away from the helmet - would give you a hell of a headache, but you would most likely survive.

The HANS is nice, but will do little to decrease the loading to the head in a side slapper of that sort.

Moral of the story : It's worth whatever you have to spend if you value your brain functions.

FF/FC rules finally allowed head surrounds (and steering wheels) to be removable in the 2010 rewrite. It is about time that other classes followed suit.

[Purple Frog]

It might be said that LaRue's setup is safer. And... unfortunately now fully tested.

[nulrich]

I've been designing to 2014 Formula 1 safety standards recently, and it has been an eye opening experience. The head surround is required to be a minimum of 100 mm (4 inches) thick on the sides and back and filled with a particular energy-absorbing foam (one of two densities, depending on temperature). The surround must extend up the side of the helmet a minimum amount. And you can add additional padding as well.

Although FF/FC cars don't need that much protection, two inches of energy-absorbing foam is a very good idea.

In my opinion, the rules should allow and even encourage enhanced safety features, not preclude them.

Nathan

[Jean-Sebastien Stoezel]

Side impact absorption in the helmet area is as important as side penetration protection. This is an onboard from our last local event:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUrcw2x0rPs

In this instance I'm fortunate the Lazer FV has tall side bodywork. Lucky too that his tire hit the rollbar, not 2" forward.

Jean

[Lotus7]

current GP3

[R. Pare]

Yes - the temperature response of the impact-absorbing material is of great importance. On many, if not most, of the available materials, they get much stiffer at lower temperatures, and much softer at higher temperatures - either of which can make the material perform very much substandard. The first time I saw what cooling did to Confor foam, I was shocked - it became as hard as a brick at 40 degrees!

[Rick Kean]

Confor foam is still the head restraint spec material, isn't it?

[a. pettipas]

In my opinion, the rules should allow and even encourage enhanced safety features, not preclude them.

Nathan

Yeah, you're all about the safety for sure...the way Peter sits in the car is unsafe with the most obvious issue being the close relationship that the top of his helmet has with the top of the roll hoop, same with Jimmy Hanrahan and Matt McDonough...and it appears, in this particular shot at least, that your super head surround is not being used at all which - correct me if I'm wrong - intrinsically precludes it's importance in an accident?...I know Peter is a pretty big guy but the car can be modified to suit him safely, no?...this whole thing brings to mind an old expression about the forest and some trees...how does that go again?

This photo shows me following Peter in my crude, claptrap Van Diemen, note the nice helmet/roll hoop relationship that should prevent my head from plowing a furrow if I'm inverted, the use of a full, hard-mounted head surround (not removable - I squeeze down in between the side bolsters) and seating position that situates me low enough in the car that the surround would be a safety asset in a side impact.

Most of your drivers do not fit the formula car jockey archetype, your car should better accommodate them.

[a. pettipas]

I will give credit where credit is due though...I use the Radon front wing package, the components are beautifully crafted.

[nulrich]

Yes, Confor foam of two different specs (pink and blue, depending on temperature) is required. There is a European manufacturer who makes a material that meets the same FIA standard, I believe.

Nathan

[Wren]

This thread keeps getting funnier.

The only way it could get better would be Dr. Radon acknowledging the wing compliment and ignoring the blatant safety issue.

[nulrich]

Some drivers are used to older cars and a more upright seating position and aren't comfortable sitting lower in the car. I would rather they sit with the sides of the cockpit up alongside their helmets, but they do meet the rules in the position they prefer.

There is plenty of space (I'm 6'5", 210 and easily meet the roll hoop rules in a Radon). Fabio is four inches below the top of the roll hoop and two inches below the "broomstick" on chassis 001.

That said, chassis 006 through 010 have a substantially higher roll hoop and we've offered to raise the roll hoop on the first five chassis. No takers yet, maybe over the winter.

[nulrich]

Back to the original subject. We have been using the expanded polypropylene (EPP) foam used by Indycar for head surrounds. From the studies I've seen it does an excellent job absorbing impact, and has a nice linear progression in compression.

The big issue is that you need to replace it after any impact, while Confor foam is "reusable."

What are other drivers using in their head surrounds? The properties of the material are important, you don't want it too stiff or too soft, and you definitely don't want it to rebound.

Nathan

[a. pettipas]

Some drivers are used to older cars and a more upright seating position and aren't comfortable sitting lower in the car. I would rather they sit with the sides of the cockpit up alongside their helmets, but they do meet the rules in the position they prefer.

There is plenty of space (I'm 6'5", 210 and easily meet the roll hoop rules in a Radon). Fabio is four inches below the top of the roll hoop and two inches below the "broomstick" on chassis 001.

That said, chassis 006 through 010 have a substantially higher roll hoop and we've offered to raise the roll hoop on the first five chassis. No takers yet, maybe over the winter.

No one deflects criticism like you dude...glad you did the smart thing and raised the hoop that was just fine in the first place, for the hell of it I guess?

[Josh Pitt]

The head surround is a safety item. It is optional but you should seriously consider using one. I put it almost equal to a good foot box.

can you, or someone, make one for a crossle 32, i would be intestest in buying one.

[R. Pare]

Making one for an older car that does not already have chassis tubes up high enough and the prerequisite bodywork to go with it would be a multi-thousand $$ proposition if you are paying some to do it for you.

You would need to get a bunch of 32 owners to buy in to the project to get the price anywhere reasonable compared to a one-off.

[R. Pare]

What are other drivers using in their head surrounds?

I would guess either expanded or extruded polystyrene since it is readily available, cheap, and is what is used for bead seats (the expanded type, at least).

Just how well it compares to EPP, I have no clue since I've never looked up the data, but in any case it has to be a lot better than nothing. If you have a link to any data that compares the 2, I'd bet a lot of guys here would like to read about it.

[starkejt]

I have learned a lot from this thread. I had no idea there were drivers out there with heads worth protecting.

[Offcamber1]

I have learned a lot from this thread. I had no idea there were drivers out there with heads worth protecting.

Least of all, Grosjean.

[wake74]

Interesting thread. On my old Reynard, I've got additional tubes running from the main roll bar to the front one that end up running right next to my helmet (not a head surround, I understand that). I've currently just got the SFI 45.1 roll bar padding on it, assuming it was the correct material. Is that the wrong material for this application?

[quartzracer]

Here's the father of the HANS answer to head protection on an Ralt RT-40 based CSR. As for the four inches of material required per FIA 2014 rules, it sure is a stark difference from the cockpit surround out of Danica Patrick's (don't ask) old Panoz.

[dereklola]

Thx for the picture, Eric (how are you?)
How would those tubes be integrated into the CF tub?
Maybe a hole drilled and then the tube ends epoxed in?
Richard?

By the way anyone know how Jim is these days - has he recovered from his inversion - is he racing again?

[quartzracer]

Hello Derek, I am good how are the U2L Can Am projects going! you have a great car hope all is well. Not sure about Jim racing but sooner then latter I hope. I have other pics to post but all from my blackberry and the wrong format. Ross hold tight as soon as I can send them to you I will, i can text them to a cell, sorry I am challenged when it comes to these things.

[a. pettipas]

Let's hope they're not considering anti-car-launching pods behind the rear wheels that don't really work (IndyCar) also...

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...it-protection/