One thing to mention again, the Vees can run much wider tires than we can in CM. If they're have the same power, more torque and weigh about the same, that would be the concern, for me...particularly on concrete
This whole thing feels more contrived the more I think about it...I can't see any reason to try to pound this square peg in a round hole.
edit: posting at the same time as TedV, just said the same basic thing.
Last edited by mwood; 06.22.12 at 9:13 PM.
Can anyone explain briefly how the Solo V and Formula First differ? If the Solo Vee can fit within the FST GCR allowances, then the non GCR complaint goes away. As a non Vee expert, a lot of the allowances sound the same to me.
If you realy like getting beat, drive a SRF in CM. I support the new GCR FV class idea, and I would move the SRF there. But I don't see them adding a new Mod class unless a ton of candidate cars started showing up at National events and lobbied hard for a new class (and even them they might get it by having 2 other Mod classes get combined).
A Formula First weighs 100 pounds more than a Solo Vee, but makes up for it by having a bit more than half the horsepower, totally unfavorable gearing, and has to run the hardest Hoosier tire compound in FF sizes. The First will be slower than than a GCR legal FV for autocross since the FV is lighter, can use the short box, and very soft, if narrow, tires.
There will be no new Modified classes. And that is not just because the FV and First guys don't want to autocross. The SEB and MAC have told us "no new Modified classes" many, many times.
Personally, I don't care which class Solo Vees are in. We will never be competitive.
the tire compound rules for road race do not follow to solo classes. SRF or formula first could run any tire and compound that fits their rims and body.
GCR legal Vee, SFR and Legends cars with some limit on tire/wheel size all seem like they could play nicely in GP without too much monkeying around.
A GCR Fst has a 1585cc with a single barrel 34mm carb with a restrictor plate.
A solo vee is allowed a 1915cc engine with any single carb or the 1585 engine with dual carbs.
The suspension changes from GCR Vee to Fst have already been added to the solo vee rules so there would be no change in that area.
A GCR legal Vee or Fst has a rather large power to weight deficit to any other mod class it could be paired with. CMod is 4 seconds slower for first place last year so it is a better pairing but I don't see that as suddenly getting a bunch of dusty Vees out of barns since they certainly can't compete with anything else in GCR trim.
If the point of having mod classes for road race cars is to get them doing something other then collecting dust then the only answer for Vees looks to be VMod class where you have just the vees and Fst and add a tick more weight to the FSTs to equalize.
Mark Swick
Okay so im a newb and very new to the sport but correct me if im wrong (try so hold back the insults if this is a dumb question) but this means i can run my Vee thats set up for autox(9 slicks) and road race it? With a new tranny of course.
Nope - they've effectively made "Solo Vees" and "Club Racing Vees" entirely different cars. Depending on what changes you've made to your car (from it's old club racing days), you're either giving up a lot of improvements you're allowed for autox, or you're a long way from being club racing legal.Originally Posted by FVEE90
Bummerwell i guess ill just stick with the autox for a year or so then maybe go to super vee or something a bit competition oriented. Thanks for the response!
also, just bought this car for $2400 its a 1915 solo autox FM (i think?) motor only has 2 events on it. Think i got a good deal???
Im sure some people on here may recognize the car, i bought it off a gentleman in LA. It has a very close ratio trans with stock 1st and tops out at about 80mph, but gets there pretty quick. Oh and Nitrogen suspension all around.
You can always run in Formula S. And you can always talk to a Formula First guy about the car and what might need to be changed to make it FST legal.
Not with an attitude like that.
It is not possible to make a Solo Vee competitive in either F or C Modified. It doesn't matter if you think I have an attitude or not. It is a simple fact. It can't be done and have anything that resembles a Solo Vee as they are now. In some countries, Formula Vees use the same chassis as they use for Formula Ford. Give us a modern chassis and the Solo Vees could be competitive. But it will be cheaper just to buy an FF switch to CM.
I was looking at buying that also. You got a good price for the mods done to the motor. Is it running well?Bummer
also, just bought this car for $2400 its a 1915 solo autox FM (i think?) motor only has 2 events on it. Think i got a good deal???
runs like a top, needs some cleaning up and paint. my wife suggested buying this instead of dumping 10k into my s4, sooo of course im gonna buy another fun car....then build up my s4 after i buy her another purseHe included spare parts and 12 harder slicks, the r25b's that are on it now are shot so that seems to be the only thing i need to get it racing.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...-sept-solo.pdf
Solo Vees to CM.
Someone 'splain the possible upside?
I don't see it as a competitive issue, but it certainly compromises a simple and effective class structure...simply to appease a very small number of competitors who, understandably, didn't want to run with the two smoke/CVT crowd.
Verbage...
WTF! 18 letters sent in which OPPOSED this move and it was still APPROVED?! Again, W.T.F...MODIFIED
- In response to member input, the MAC has provided the following amended version of its previously-published proposal package regarding Solo Vees:
- Move subsection B in its entirety from under Modified Class F into Modified Class C.
- Move subsections C, D, and E from under Modified Class F into Modified Class C.
- Remove the "Solo Vee" under subsection F under Modified Class F, and create a corresponding item under the Solo Vee rules as moved into Modified Class C.
Comment: The MAC neither intends nor expects the competitive position of the FF platform to change with this move. (#8586, 8593, 8595, 8602, 8622, 8626, 8628, 8629, 8632, 8637, 8652, 8655, 8661, 8680, 8681, 8698, 8704, 8745[FONT=Arial])[/FONT]
Yea, writing letters to the SEB does a whole lot of good...
Chris Pruett
Swift DB1
The way I see it, the idea is to give the few, remaining Vees a place to play where they aren't subject to the "evil" F500 cars. With no additional mods allowed, they shouldn't be a threat to the FF's in CM, theoretically, but it solves the FM problem for those very few who care.
While I have empathy for the Vee folks, I can't make any type of logical upside/downside argument to support this move.
Seems likely that some of the Vee folks have good relationships with the MAC and the SEB doesn't really care, based on the idea that the Vees won't be competitive...no harm, no foul.
I'm not that angry or upset, but it does seem like a dumb idea to quiet a small, but very squeaky, wheel or two...
18 letters doesn't mean 18 "opposed" letters. Mine is one of those listed, and I wouldn't consider it an "opposed" letter.WTF! 18 letters sent in which OPPOSED this move and it was still APPROVED?! Again, W.T.F...
Yea, writing letters to the SEB does a whole lot of good...
Note, this is a revised proposal...so, write your letters (again), one way or another.
Pretty clear, the MAC is really wanting to help out the vocal Vee folks who want to be clear of F500's and amending the first proposal to drop the additional mods is kind of the compromise that they came up with...still, I'm against, based on benefit (minimal) vs risk (wrecking the class' integrity and basic value proposition). Sorry if I offend any of my FV friends...or those that I haven't had the pleasure to meet, yet.
Last edited by mwood; 08.21.12 at 12:50 AM.
I stand corrected...
Thanks for the clarifications. I stand corrected.
Like Mr. Wood, I fail to see the long term benefit of the original or revised proposal. If the MAC/SEB wants to help the Vee folks, I still feel my original counter-proposal offers a better longer term solution :
FV1200 / FST1600 Proposal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Finally, I would like to add my voice to those who ask the MAC consider re-classing both the Formula Vee (FV1200) and the Formula First (FST1600). That is, moving these CGR-compliant cars from F Modified (FM) to a class in which they are better suited. Please note that, as part of the FV1200 and FST1600 relocations, I am NOT advocating any changes that would make these cars non-GCR-complaint.
Chris Pruett
Swift DB1
There is no better class for GCR legal Vees and Firsts than FM, unless it is CM. In either class, GCR legal VW based cars will get their asses blown away.
I know of exactly one person who used to run his GCR legal FV at the occasional Solo. He no longer does so. I have never heard of single First participating in a Solo.
You are wasting your time, the SEBs time, and the MACs time making such a request.
CM is a lot closer dimension and weight wise, thus reducing the course dependency currently present in FM.
Not like it matters for 3-4 entries a year.
There will not be any entries at Nationals for GCR legal Vees or Firsts.
I am pleased that the MAC altered the proposal to keep the Vees where they are mod wise. But I still don't like having a non-gcr compliant car in the class. In other words a car with allowances. Allowances have a way of changing, and it is seldom a takeaway. While this proposal is certainly superior in my mind to the original, I am still against it. Further I don't see the need for it. Why move the Solo Vee's at all? I don't get it. New letter going in.
[FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana][FONT=ArialMT][FONT=ArialMT]m) May use any primary or final drive gears of any origin. This [/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]does not allow the use of alternate transaxles. A reverse gear [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=ArialMT][FONT=ArialMT]is not required.[/FONT][/FONT]
s) Aftermarket shift forks/shift rod/mounting parts and alterations
[/FONT][/FONT]required for their installation is permitted with the intent of facilitating reliable H-pattern shifting. This allowance does not include sequential shifting (push button or single axis lever [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][FONT=Verdana]movement) mechanisms or electric/gas assist. Cable/hydraulic [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]actuating mechanisms are allowed. A device for locking-out reverse [/FONT][FONT=Verdana]gear may be used.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][FONT=Monaco]Since a Hewland Mk9 uses a VW case, the rule listed there seem to argue there isn't a gearing issue with a solo vee.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]Can anyone show me a Solo Vee that is built to the limit of the rules today?[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]
[FONT=Arial]"Comment: The MAC neither intends nor expects the competitive position of the FF platform to change with this move. (#8586, 8593, 8595, 8602, 8622, 8626, 8628, 8629, 8632, 8637, 8652, 8655, 8661, 8680, 8681, 8698, 8704, 8745[FONT=Arial])[/FONT] "
Then why move a car from one class to another class if the intent is keep it uncompetitive? If the reply is SoloV has a better chance to be competitive in CM than FM than that is a statement full of POO.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Does the MAC have to do something just to say they did something? If so, give the SoloV a better way to keep their valve covers sealed. It's like the SEB gets graded on the number of letters they can stir up.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Last edited by TedV; 08.21.12 at 12:55 PM. Reason: post formatting is all screwed up, grrr
For some people the main attraction of C-mod is GCR compliance.
What greater good is being served by throwing that away?
I just don't understand.
Does bringing solo vees into the CM class suddenly make your Formula F car non-compliant?
No it doesn't. But it is not the greatest mix. It can be the beginning of of "give them allowances to make them equal". The creates a very different landscape than currently exists.
Welcome to my class. As said before, there's a big difference between a 55" wide car that weighs 800 lbs without proper suspension and a solo vee. At least compared to a CM car, the vee's performance should vary less course to course than it does now.
Making them equal will be a problem. In spite of the fact that there isn't a 100% fully prepped vee out there, the three drivers are convinced that they need more allowances.
There are several fully prepped Solo Vees. Most are not currently run at the National level. For a some people that is because of personal financial or job requirements.
Some of the allowances don't contribute to increased performance such as the ball joint front beam. It is wider and heavier than a link pin beam and requires modifying the frame mounts to use. There is a lot of debate about whether a limited slip differential will be worth the money. My prep shop says not, but one of the cars at Nationals has one.
Earlier I wrote that I don't care about whether Solo Vees are in FM or CM. I have changed my mind. I would prefer to stay in FM.
We had GCR legal Formula Vees run in D/Mod years ago. Lots of cars came out. Someone had a dumb idea to modify the GCR Formula Vee and it has been a never ending process. I would run my GCR legal FV if I had a class I could fit in and had a chance to win.
Lynn,
This year my car has every mod (plus) except the ball joint front. The limited slip does help. Bob and I are running within fractions of a second of each other. Without the mods that were proposed at first, we will be at the bottom of the list in Cmod. But both cars will be more equal when it comes to this ^--^--^--^--^--^--^. I like watching the Cmods run more than the 500s. And guys, the oil problem is not a problem now, we bolt on the valve covers so they won't leak. I know that it can be a problem with leaking oil, so I watch for any signs of that. Most of us are carefull of not spraying the course, it hurts everyones runs.
So move the GCR compliant F500 to CM. That makes a lot more sense than moving the the SoloV/FV from a class where it is non competitive to another (& theoretically faster) class where it will still be uncompetitive.
And move the SRF to FM and allow any wheel & tire and we can be non GCR and much more competitive with the Solo Vees.
It makes sense on paper, but will piss off a lot of FF & F500 drivers who like the status quo. It won't attract many SRF as they are busy road racing. Are their enough idle Vee's around that would be attracted to make it a net gain? I think not, but I am not a Vee guy.
So, here's another question (follow on to the question above):
Why make a potentially disruptive move for an unknown level of interest? We don't usually do that...usually, you have to have some evidence of interest, i.e. provisional class, filling grid in an existing class or an experimental class (like RT, which Howard basically said was a put up or shut up challenge to the street tire in stock guys).
I get that it is no fun to run the cars against the F5's, but if there is really any significant interest in SV's, I'd have to believe getting cars out in numbers, with a classing objective being the incentive, would have to be doable. If it proves out, then figure out where they play, not the reverse...give a place to play and hope it proves out.
How about the F5s to Kart and return FM to FVs? Isn't that where the "problem" came from, adding the F500s to FM?
Actually, I would say that the problem is the current SV drivers are not developing their cars at the rate F5 is, and the fully developed SV's are no longer raced. Which I guess is not a problem. If I were racing a car that is underprepared, I would not be complaining about it, and certainly not asking for new allowances when I haven't fully taken advantage of the ones I've already been given.
It shouldn't be a matter of whether you find it to be worth the money or not, it's whether there is any performance to be gained. If the answer is yes, than you should have one, period. If you chose not to, you should not be complaining that your car is uncompetitive. If your goal is to win, or be competitive, you should be racing in a class you can afford , with a car you can afford. No one is forcing you to drive your SV. F5's are cheap to buy, and cheap to operateThere is a lot of debate about whether a limited slip differential will be worth the money. My prep shop says not, but one of the cars at Nationals has one.
October Fastrack is out. Solo Vees are moving to CM, effective 1/1/2013.
F#*!
Still do not understand the reasoning behind this move...
Chris Pruett
Swift DB1
Nor do I...and I asked enough folks involved...something about "they look more like FF's than they do F500's". That, to me, was not exactly a compelling argument to screw with a successful class' integrity.Still do not understand the reasoning behind this move...
I think there must be compromising pictures involving farm animals involved...
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