Pistons - does anyone care??

[Rick Kirchner]

It is extremely poor form to crap on ANY volunteer.

Wow, that's pretty much giving up your right to bitch about just about anything in club racing. You'd have to be roommates with the Dali Lama to be that content in life.

If someone sucks at their job, they suck. Whether or not they are paid for it makes no difference.

[Bill Bonow]

It is extremely poor form to crap on ANY volunteer.

Greg,

Not too sure about that one. I've seen some German and Japanese videos where this practice is very much accepted.

[Greg Mercurio]

Rick: Didn't say you couldn't or shouldn't, it's still poor form.
Bill: Ummmm...

In the absence of any supportive data, Art Smith's assertions are moot. Getting your panties in a wad about an unproven performance enhancement is just dumb. If you want to fanasize about performance, and you get your information about said enhancements from manufacturers catalogues, then go here:

http://www.jcwhitney.com

Hundreds of pages about performance increases, most just bolt on!

[jivey]

I worked for over a year on the pistons. And worked with 3 different piston co.'s. And had the support of the other engine builders.This piston was the one that ended up meeting all the critieria for the SCCA. Equal power, weight, and configuration. This was something that was needed.
I spent my own time, my own money and jumped through the hoops the SCCA required. Including sending samples and dyno comparison info. I did the same with the alloy head. (FYI) Some of the best engines out there have iron heads. We've sold over 400 sets of pistons. I would imagine most people have them in thier engine by now. So whats the big deal.
The big deal is longer life between rebuilds. And easier on the blocks, and your race budget. Call some of the engine builders and see what they have to say.

See you at the 40th ---- Jay

[reidhazelton]

Jay-

Woud you be able to post a few dyno graphs for us? That would end this with some good data for sure.

-RH

[stonebridge20]

If Jay says that the pistons are equal,.......that should be enough to end this thread!

Thanks for all the hard work Jay. You must have done it for the better of the class because I know it doesn't put extra money in your pocket!

[T644HU05]

Greg,

Not too sure about that one. I've seen some German and Japanese videos where this practice is very much accepted.

Finally, something interesting comes out of this otherwise pointless thread!

[Dave Harmison]

My only issue with the new pistons is that they are only available in sets. I had an engine explosion that left me with two perfectly good pistons that now have no one to play with.

Any chance we'll be able to adopt (buy) single pistons?

[jivey]

Anyone that has called us needing a single - has got one. Just pick-up the phone and call. Ivey Engines

[Daryl DeArman]

Actually Daryl, I hold Art to a higher standard as he is making assertions of the capability of the CRB members to make technical decisions, their collective abilities and their veracity. He has offered no proof, nothing but a lot of BS.

It is extremely poor form to crap on ANY volunteer. It's even worse to allege facts that are not borne out by proof.

If you have any proof to present that support any of the accusations Art has made against the CRB members in the initial post, please present them here, until then I respectfully request that you butt out.

Greg,

Over 40 posts ago, somebody in the know could have responded to Art's questions with something like "Appreciate your concerns about the process Art. Rest assured that Jay Ivey worked with multiple piston companies to find a great replacement. He conducted 'objectively verifiable' tests that were peer reviewed....blah, blah, blah"

When Art asks such questions about the process there is a simple yet effective solution. Answer the questions disproving his assertions. That happens even a few times and most will dismiss these assertions as tilting at windmills. When such easy questions don't get answered by somebody in the know, one can reasonably conclude that the answers must not be favorable.

I don't expect folks like Jay to be monitoring the many forums out there waiting for questions such as these to be asked. However, there should be more than a handful of folks who knew the answers to Art's questions.

Having volunteered many, many hours I find it extremely poor form for ANY volunteer to use his volunteer status as an excuse for poor performance.

Request respectfully denied.

[Larry]

No problem! And my dislike of Enterprises has to do with the politics and the monopoly it has, and not the product or the services they provide. The FE is a fine looking car, and I'm glad to hear that you're getting good reliability. I've criticized FF about engine cost and reliability, so I'm happy to see progress there, too!

I don't know if these new pistons provide more HP or not, but I'm glad that they will improve engine life without driving the costs even higher. Every time I walk by my engine (with its $6K repair), I question my own sanity.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[John LaRue]

You know Larry, I think that is the real heart of it; what makes sense.

The pistons are fine as are all of the other upgrades (in fact necessary), but the problem is that they all come with a healthy price tag and do not offer a reasonable dollar per mile cost as FF once did.

To state the obvious, we need a reliable cost effective alternative but that does not come easy and likely will not at all. That is the good and bad about FF; The rules are stable, but in so being result in a continuing escalation of running/maintenance costs versus newer alternatives (i.e. FE). What I suppose we need to consider and accept is that all of the classes have some type of life expectancy unless the players are willing to accept regular re-incarnations of the regulations.

John

[Roland V. Johnson]

Actually John, the new pistons bring the cost/mile down. Which was the point in the first place.

[John LaRue]

Roland,

I understand that as does the better crankshaft, change from points/condensor, etc...

My point is simply that the cost is still relatively high compared to what it should be. FF started out with a very cost effective and plentiful engine/parts formula that over the course of time has become expensive and scarce primarily due to age.

John

[Stan Clayton]

Over 40 posts ago, somebody in the know could have responded to Art's questions with something like "Appreciate your concerns about the process Art. Rest assured that Jay Ivey worked with multiple piston companies to find a great replacement. He conducted 'objectively verifiable' tests that were peer reviewed....blah, blah, blah".

As the CRB member responsible for this change, I did precisely what you suggest above, Daryl. The only thing is that I did it two years ago in several threads dealing with the 5-over CP pistons. I'm not going to rehash this two-year-old issue again, but you can read the threads yourselves. From the advanced search function above, set the age on a year old or older and seach on 'gapless rings' and 'cp pistons', or just peruse these sample threads:

Gapless Piston Rings

Kent Engine Overbore?

+0.005" oversize pistons

The bottom line is that the pistons save competitors considerable money over resleeving, albeit with a gain of about one-third of a horsepower. If anyone here can exploit a third of a hp, they need to be driving for Ferrari, not a FF. And with quoted hp figures in this thread ranging from 110 hp to 120 hp for a freshly overhauled engine, that miniscule gain drops into invisibility.

For another perspective, consider that Enterprizes rebuilds SRF engines with tightly controlled parts and processes, and then dynos each individual engine, and they still have to accept a window of (IIRC) +/- 1.5 hp to get them out the door to what are as near truly identical cars as exist in the club. Continuing to make a fuss after two years over a third of a hp? You've got to be kidding!?

To the gentleman suggesting 5-under pistons...get together with CP to see if they'll make them for you, and if so, send in a request to crb@scca.com. I am confident the idea will get the same serious consideration as the 5-over ones did. That's not a bad idea for the Regional guy who is more concerned about max bore life between resleevings than peak hp.

[Daryl DeArman]

Stan,

Answering with "these topics and concerns were raised two years ago on this very forum" would enlighten those of us ignorant of such discussions. That doesn't mean you are obligated to respond if the same questions come up tomorrow or a year from now, anymore than you were obligated to respond to this thread. I am only stating that not answering can lead reasonable people to conclude that the answers aren't favorable. If that matters or not to you is only for you to decide.

Thanks for your response, it is appreciated.

[PaulT]

Re-reading the old posts and seeing the same names in those as in this one, makes me wonder what was the purpose or point of the question?

Hey Art, what is your specific beef with the 5 over pistons? The fact that they are 5 over or something else?

Paul

[Greg Mercurio]

Well gosh Daryl, I guess I'll just have to put you in the same bucket as Art. Your statement is just about a slam-dunk:

"Having volunteered many, many hours I find it extremely poor form for ANY volunteer to use his volunteer status as an excuse for poor performance."

Perhaps either you or Art can supply the rest of really stupid unwashed cave dwellers exactly where or what the CRB did that constitutes "Poor Performance"

As to the rest of your post, Jay and Stan are fine gentlemen, I am not. Answering baseless and relatively stupid posts are the domain of grumpy jet-lagged overworked peons like myself.

Time to retire to the garage and finish the last of the punch list before school this weekend.

[Stan Clayton]

Answering with "these topics and concerns were raised two years ago on this very forum" would enlighten those of us ignorant of such discussions.

No problem, Daryl. Unfortunately I don't recall seeing this thread until someone pointed me to it near the end of the second page, so could not weigh in earlier.

In the spirit of the sport...

Stan

[mblanc]

To the gentleman suggesting 5-under pistons...get together with CP to see if they'll make them for you.............. That's not a bad idea for the Regional guy ..................

But that horse is already out of the barn!
(or is that .33 of a horse, or 1 horse, or 2 horses?).

The CP replacement in std ONLY, or in combination with a -5 under would have been a fine answer with NO arguements as to possible performance enhancement. In hindsight, I think it would have been a better way, but it's far too late now. -5 and Std OR Std and +5 would give a guy two rebuilds on one set of sleeves, but is buying 1 set of sleeves and 2 sets of forged slugs and rings actually a cost savings? I would submit any cost savings is actually from using a better quality forged piston, not the fact that it comes in two sizes. Jay did say above "...longer life between rebuilds. And easier on the blocks..."

The real point is, I think it was just a really slippery slope to start down while replacing non oem parts. Using the same logic, why didn't we put .005" more stroke on the crank when it was made? "It's hardly a measurable difference in performance......." and then you could use the same flawed logic to argue that it would save some blocks that had been cut too short already. At what point is it too much? I don't want to resleeve all my +5 bored blocks, so later I'll need a +10 piston approved to save a resleeve? etc. In a few years, "everybody has +5, so lets go +10 and 'we'll all save money".....and "It's hardly a measurable difference in performance......."

I would argue stroke should be left alone, and bore also, and pretty much everything else, especially when replacing an oe based part with an aftermarket performance unit.
How many rules in this class are actually 40 years old? Scratch off bore, after 38 years.

Again, as I stated before:
to me, IT'S NOT ABOUT REHASHING THE PISTON CHANGE!
MY POINT IS, that we need to avoid being opportunistic, and conspicuously and purposely NOT ADD ANY PERFORMANCE (or performance potential) in the rules when we're given the opportunity.

IF the class would ever decide to add performance, we should then do it conspicuously AND significantly.

I appreciated the work done on the pistons, and they are a quality and durable piece, and contribute to the in the class. No, I don't want the +5 size rule revisited at this point.
I just want it kept in mind when making future changes that we should purposely
avoid unnecessary performance creep.

Either way, FF rules are really good overall when this is where the competitors level (or lack) of concern is, especially compared to things going on in other classes.

[Roland V. Johnson]

I guess that the real point is, no one has proved that the 5 over pistons make any more power!!!!!!!!!! The engine builders that I have talked to, have stated that they can see no power difference with the 5 over pistons. By the way we have had "E" grade factory pistons for the uprated ever since I can remember. I think they were 2.5 over. Due to the difference between cast and forged pistons I think you are running about the same bore size with the new 5 over pistons that we ran with the "E" pistons. Now let's go racing and stop the BS.

[NEONFLIGHT]

i think anyone should run whatever pistons they want. everyone is going to end up running the same magic piston anyway.

with the rules and regs... all the cars are pretty much the same as far as performance goes. its the driver that beats the driver. not piston that beats the piston. catch my drift?

[LolaT340]

i think anyone should run whatever pistons they want. everyone is going to end up running the same magic piston anyway.

with the rules and regs... all the cars are pretty much the same as far as performance goes. its the driver that beats the driver. not piston that beats the piston. catch my drift?

That is called Formula Libre.

Formula Ford is about having identical engines, with identical parts, identical carbs etc etc. That is the meaning to the word "Formula" in this sense. (The Ford being that you run a Ford engine, although the pesky American's round these parts now run Japanese engines...how very un-American :P )

Formula Ford has been, and will always be about the driver, without the need to resort to an expensive technology war.

[marty7]

It's not so simple. Factory Ford cast pistons are no longer available. The only cast pistons that are available will be brands like ACL and Mahle. Pin location, ring locations and width as well as combustion bowl volume/location are different.

So what do you do? Do you run modified 1300 pistons (technically against the rules), or you run an aftermarket piston. The factory ford piston is good but being cast and slotted it is a ticking time bomb, as are the aftermarket cast pistons. For historics/vintage reliablity is the key. If SCCA allows a forged copy piston (same combustion volume and weight) then that is sensible. Minor performance gain, but definate reliablity gain. How many FF engines have melted pistons or had the crowns detatched due to the long slots between the crown and skirt.

NZ historics are in no mans land. No one is checking capacity. Our piston issues are capacity and 1300cc High compression pistons being used.

Marty

[NEONFLIGHT]

thanks marty, you actually made my point in a way. everyone is going to end up using the same setup! hence formula, or spec ford.

just hear me out.

i am a vary avid rc crawler guy. meaning i hold a controler and drive a truck over rocks through gates.

there are rules and regulations to wb, width, height, blah blah blah. but no restrictions on motors or speed controls or batteries.

but everyone who competes uses the same setup pretty much! same motors, same esc's they just have a driving style that they are used to.

if a hp limit is regulated then typically your options for power enhancement will be limited.
hence same types of setups for engines will be seen. so as im saying this...

put this into perspective. you can have any color you want, as long as it's black.

oh yeah, i wouldn't even touch a foreign motor unless its in its home, a foreign car.

[Rick Kirchner]

Old thread guys....

[starkejt]

[dc]

I thought it was a spammer posting in a 3-year old thread... LOL. Couldn't figure out why it was brought to the top again. Hasn't been an issue since, well, it was never really an issue until Art posted this thread.




This might have actually been the thread that prompted the design of the black helicopter smiley.

[starkejt]

When did you adopt that custom user title? Just noticed.

[dc]

It's because my time is spent dealing with issues in PM and e-mail and much less posting on the forums these days.

[starkejt]

Setup up a script that autopermabans anyone who PMs you.

[dc]

Setup up a script that autopermabans anyone who PMs you.

LOL, now THAT is an idea!

[starkejt]

I like to think I'm always full of good ideas. Of course, what I call "good ideas," others may call "Cisco wine and pizza rolls."

[dc]

I said it was an IDEA, I didn't say it was a good one.

[starkejt]

Oh. Well, thanks for shattering my confidence. No big deal, though. I'll just go listen to the Cure and cut myself.