Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
In the UK they "know" how to run CLUB RACING...local Racing for the "JOES",after all they have been doing it for many a year at a LOT of local race-tracks,they just get on with itI have lived half my life in the UK and now in Canada.Input/problems are sorted pretty quickly in my experience in the UK and they progress the class..use the internet...JUST look at the vees in The UK/Aussie-Land,forget the engine size for a while,look at the cars
like a GAC for example.LOOK at the tires,look at the wheels,some use Formula Ford chassis etc,VEE is 40 yrs old class..sure looks it in Canada/USA...so who is to blame
.I still love my Mysterian tho
with its 500 yr old 1200 engine."peoplescar"(Volkswagen) parts like a front beam that can destroy a prissy Formula Ford at 12 paces and an exhaust pipe that can spray oil in the visor of a pain in the A--e Formula Libre driver coming up at a rate of knots behind me into corner 5 at Mosport!!!Yes!I love my Car
Originally Posted by jhenn4716
I think we have. Several times we have explained we are a different class and FV needs to do what it needs to do, if anything. As Bill has said though (many times), "good luck". Trying to get a concensus of SCCA members to any change is not likely.
(And no change is ok if that is that is the concensus.)
When asked , we have given you info on certain upgrades, since we investigated and or tested them in FST. But you need to find your own way if FST is not what you want.
1) Why bother with the effort to revisit subjects that are in the archives of this forum or the FV Forum, when we know that you will not be able to change anything. If you have no idea of all the issues 'possibly' facing FV. Do your homework, ask some intelligent questions and we will provide you with the most current analysis.
2) Simply stated, FST is the answer to ALL of FV's future parts availability issues. To be clear this is car issues, not class issues.
3) FST is the the correct answer to the FV future part availability issues. There will ONLY be movement of FV towards FST. There are no compromises of value other than those that accommodate the use of old FV's.
Brian
I don't think anyone is mandating that FV needs to be FST. They are two very different classes with very different motives from their participants. I don't see why we can't have both???
In my opinion I think the Canada guys have the best overall rules package for FV.
Scott
Bill pointed out very early on about doing my homework and I've been doing plenty of reading. The reason to re-ask some of these same questions is about trying to come up with new answers. The detective that pulls out the cold case file is trying to look at it with new eyes. Does it mean the detectives that worked on it originally didn't know they job? Of course not, it's just another crack at the apple.
If FST is the correct answer to the future of FV, then why haven't more people converted their cars to FST? I'm not trying to be difficult with the question, but to understand the process.
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
As for the Mexican use of wings there were winged FV's at the international FV events at Daytona in 1969 and 1970. It semms they did a good job of slowing the cars down but they looked cool. As I am an antique and have had a FV for the last 49 years I enjoy vintage racing with my FV. After leaving the SCCA as a driver for a few years FST was the only thing that brought me back to SCCA racing. I believe the U.S. and Canada are tied together as far as cars are concerned. Europe,Asutralia , Mexico,Brazil,South africa,Ireland etc. have long ago gone in diferent directions. WW tried here in 1969 to move us toward Super vee. Some Vee drivers moved on at that time but most of the U.S. FV guys held the course. Super vee became a class for millionairs and some of the original vee guys came back when super vee surpassed there budgets.(It didn't take long for most of them) There has never been much exchange between U.S and Mexican drivers. The Canadians on the other hand have had many competitors racing on both sides of the border so are more closely tied together as far as rules are concened.One problem FV has had since the mid 1960's is the inconsistency of the 1200 manifolds. If anything has seperated the have's and have nots in the U.S it's been having a great flowing intake manifold. So far I don't know of any rule that has kept these equal.
butch deer
Jeff,
FST is NOT the answer for the future of FV.
I'll repeat, FST is NOT the answer for the future of FV.
It is a separate class that grew out of FV. An FV can be converted to FST just like an FF can be converted to FC. FC (F2000) grew out of FF, but you don't hear anybody saying FC is the future of FF.
FST is a choice, not a destiny.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Then you and I can finally agree upon something, but many seem to think it is the future. Who's right?
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
There are probably several reasons.
1. FV drivers have spares that they have accumulated over the years that will be worthless if FV migrates to FST. In the last few years alone, intake manifold developments have significantly raised the cost of a perceived "must have" item. People that bought a new manifold don't want that to be money wasted. Guys that run at multiple tracks can have two transmissions and a change to FST makes their short box obsolete. In another thread a driver wrote that he liked that concept of FST but he now has a Vee with a spare engine, so he doesn't want to lose the cost of his inventory of parts.
2. For most regional drivers the parts shortage isn't real. They can pick up the phone and call Steve Pastore, Jim Schings, Bob Lybarger, Ron Chuck, Brian McCarthy and a few others and get the parts they need. Autowerks and Noble will still rebuild their engines. Prices may be going up, but the prices of everything are going up.
3. Those parts suppliers do have an investment in the class and don't want to see it go away. A change to FST lessens their monopoly on parts. How many guys thought when they first bought a Vee they could pick up a VW magazine and could just order what they needed from it? I did, but quickly learned that nobody sells parts for FV but the core FV community. The parts for a FST engine can be bought from any number of VW suppliers, so why would the FV suppliers support a concept that upsets their cart?
4. Nobody wants to be the first guy in their region to get a FST. In the races I ran with mine locally I was either 1 of 1 or 1 of 2. People that saw the car were interested, but said they had to wait and see if it took off.
5. The economy tanked. For me personally, my wife retired after my first season which seriously reduced disposable income and made racing too expensive.
I'm sure there are other reasons. Wasting money on racing is a very personal choice.
This simply just isn't true. There are a ton of vintage Vee's running across the US that would love to buy up these parts. I know in So-Cal, VARA will get 10-20 vee's at their race events which is more then we get at a SFR regional FV race.FV drivers have spares that they have accumulated over the years that will be worthless if FV migrates to FST.
Scott
Bob:
I agree with you. One quick question - in point #2 you said "regional drivers". Was the distinction between regional and national intentional? Was the distinction needed to separate regional from some other group? Why did you not just say "drivers"?
Thanks,
Craig
Migrating
We're migrating away from the original question on the post but that's ok. I want to thank everyone who took the time to share their thoughts.
If anyone has some final input to share it's welcome, otherwise I'm back to doing more research.
Thanks everyone, and be safe racing.
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
Original question didn't matter to me - it's way to far of a tow to the UK to even think about racing there.
Just think how much money would get kicked in to the tow fundOriginal question didn't matter to me - it's way to far of a tow to the UK to even think about racing there.
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
Good point! Over the last 5 years my sales growth in FV has been increasing significantly in the Vintage groups. Their fields are getting bigger and bigger. While most of them won't pay for $7000 motors
Of note, They also have embraced tire rules and promotion to grow their class. They have far more of a social atmosphere with comaraderee. It IS a different form of racing, but certainly successful.
Scott,
I absolutely agree with you. When I made the decision to convert a car part of the thought process was to do it while there was still a market for the Vee parts. I rode around the paddock at a regional race and sold the beam and wheels from the back of my truck. However, there is a big difference between five to ten guys a year converting and the wholesale, SCCA-says-change-FV-to-FST flood of the spares market. While I'm sure Jim Schings would love to get some of those parts I seriously doubt that the people with the obsolete Vee parts will like his wholesale "buy" prices.
Craig,
It wasn't really intentional. Thinking about it, I would imagine most national drivers have a larger store of spares, but they still use the same core group of suppliers - there just isn't anywhere else to get the parts.
Last edited by Bob VanDyke; 01.23.12 at 4:23 PM. Reason: left out a word
1) Most FV competitors to not believe there is an issue with car part availability. No motivation to change.
2) Most FV competitors are not concerned with long term part availability issues because they don't expect to race that much longer. This is based on the average age of FV competitors. If they run out of parts they simply stop racing. It is good a reason to stop as any. Again, no motivation to change.
3) If you are trying to equate change with increasing class participation, good luck! That is going to be a very hard sell.
Brian
Conversion has a cost of both time and money. If you are already actively racing a Vee you may not see any change other then time spent. Spare parts you may have become something you have to sell. Though there is a still a market for those spares even if a wholesale change from vee to fst happened it still means you have to spend the time to sell those parts and replace them with fst appropriate spares. If your car is sitting in the garage for some reason then you probably don't have the cash to race it as is let alone change parts around.
Another issues of conversion is depending on your area you would be racing yourself. So it doesn't feel like much of a fix if you go from at least a few competitors a race to just you. FST is working where it is running in large part because it was a group that started it. So they converted their first car to test and then did a few more. Someone has to go first for any new car to happen. I would guess it was no different when the first Formacar was built. The first time he went to the track he was all alone, but went out there and sold his product.
My reasons for choosing FST. Just for background.
1. I had the aircooled VW disease long before I knew what a Vee was
2. I have a VW Thing that currently has 4 wheel drum brakes. I have zero desire to fiddle with adjustment of those after every session.
3. When comparing prices for motors the 1600 is a clear winner. Now as more people enter the field perhaps someone will find the loophole in the engine rules that ends in cost like current Vee manifolds but that currently isn't there.
4. I currently have a complete beater Vee that I autocross. Adjusting ball joints is way less hassle then messing with the link pins. I have no clue if either route is cheaper.
5. As tires go I had no real idea of what Vees were using till this last few weeks with all the threads here. I'm rather jealous of the Canadians with their choice of street tires. I don't look forward to spending 800 plus rims plus mounting for a set of rains that hopefully just turn to bricks in my trailer. I've done some endurance racing and used 8 star specs to get a VW golf through a 24 hour race. On something as light as a vee people could buy those and run forever.
As mentioned before, I think the time has passed to adopt a major conversion in the US or Canada. If people are "required" to do a major change, which usually means major $$$. People are going to give-up or move classes.
Other countries, that adoted major changes, did so, when the economy was good and racing was strong. Now people worry about how much gas they need to get to the track. So to discuss major expenditures at this point in time, might not be the best thing.
I know the conversion $$ is all up front but I can say from 40 years of FV expierence that in the 5 yers I have had a FST I have saved the cost of the average conversion in labor saved by not changing gearboxes,adjusting camber and brakes, and changeing tires.
butch deer
I will not challenge the validity of FST, or the long term benefits.
Trying to make the point, that changes made in other countries, were made some time ago. You could even argue, that most people involved in the original change have moved on.
It's all about how much $$$ now, up front. Major speeding is this day and age is not for everyone. 10 years ago, everyone was riding high, no big deal. Looking at the vee's for sale, it is cheaper buying a second car just for the parts!
Just read this on a different thread about a group of racers trying to introduce FB racing to Australia:
"As we establish this new category we are keen to avoid some of the pitfalls that have complicated Formula Vee such as lack of parts and engines now costing approximately $9-11K from reknowned engine builders."
Hmm.. Don't they use 1600 motors down there? Wasn't that supposed to solve all of our problems?
Tiago,
Yep, they must have some pretty lax rules down in OZ to let their engine costs get that high.
I'll ask Ray about the cost of top notch 1200 and 1600 in Eastern Australia (way more competitive that W.A.). I think those guys have let the rules go a little too crazy for my taste.
Edit: Checked with Ray in NSW. Top shelf motors (both 1200 and 1600) are running in the $10K range in OZ. In reviewing their rules, they are not near as closely scrutineered as FV is in the US.
Loose rules will bite a class in the long run.
Last edited by Bill Bonow; 01.30.12 at 7:58 PM.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
BillTiago,
Yep, they must have some pretty lax rules down in OZ to let their engine costs get that high.
I'll ask Ray about the cost of top notch 1200 and 1600 in Eastern Australia (way more competitive that W.A.). I think those guys have let the rules go a little too crazy for my taste.
Edit: Checked with Ray in NSW. Top shelf motors (both 1200 and 1600) are running in the $10K range in OZ. In reviewing their rules, they are not near as closely scrutineered as FV is in the US.
Loose rules will bite a class in the long run.
Can I add something directly to this thread?
A couple of years ago or so I was told verbally by one top engine builder that one engine he built cost the owner $10K. This was at that time a one-off with more builder time and all the chrome bits, intended to win our State championship. It didn't, so that was one good story about how our rules stopped money winning the trophy.
I haven't gone around getting quotes, but I don't think that $10K - $11K is typical of an engine from a professional. Things are different down here from you because we are much smaller and we actually don't have too many professional builders, so price competition is not a factor and prices are not consistent. Also, I would imagine that our labor costs are higher. But that's not to discount the possibility that a winning builder has been escalating his prices, naturally.
And with our rules, I believe we have lost direction with some specific areas of our engine rules, such as valve lift, but not the whole package, and we have a fair amount of disagreement amongst our experts and non experts about which is the best direction.
So its all a grain of salt with me at the moment. Development improvements were always going to happen since FST started down here in 2002. Where - my opinion -we have lost sight is how the restrictor plate is a simple, quick, and cheap means of better equalising performance, and neutralise expensive engine developments.
In my humble mind, better equalising performance, and a reliable parts supply on a few critical items, are our major issues.
But overall, down here, if we hadn't succeeded with a 1600/ball joint/disc brake/alloy wheel Formula Vee in the late 1900's/early200's, I wouldn't be here posting on this forum.
Ray
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