Fuel cell mods? '95 VD

[Barry Ott]

I'm getting started on converting my '95 FC VD to a FF/Honda and I'm trying to figure out what I need to do with the fuel cell. In looking at the pictures in the HPD instructions, those fuel cells have at least one bolt-in plate to enable installation of the fuel pump and regulator inside the cell and to add the new hole for the wiring connector. On the other hand, my cell has two openings: an AN fitting "bonded" into the center/rear of the cell for fuel out and a filler neck "molded" into the top edge. i.e. I don't have a bolt-in plate to work with.

How have you modified your fuel cells to allow installation of the pump/regulator and extra holes?

TIA,
Barry Ott

[RussMcB]

Barry, I wonder if you're the first person to convert an early '90's VD to Fit power. You may need to figure out some stuff on your own. But that shouldn't be too bad. You're going to be happy with your car when done.

I think you're right about the plate mounts. In my Swift conversion, the HPD filter/pickup/regulator/pump "hangs" from the top plate. I'm not sure if 98+ VD's are the same.

A possible option: Use your original VD pickup, have an external, low pressure (Facet) pump feeding a separate small reservoir which feeds the high pressure pump. You'll need an external regulator (which may be better than the HPD method) and a return line to the cell.

Personally, I like the external parts described above, but there are valid cons. Finding room, plumbing and packaging could be a challenge, but I was able to do it in my RF-94 F1000 conversion.

Good luck. I look forward to watching your progress and the finished product.

[SOseth]

Barry;

If access to the inside of your cell is not practical, go with an external fuel pump. It sounds like your main issue will be how to fit the return line to your cell. I fitted mine to my filler neck but it's made of aluminum.

SteveO

[Barry Ott]

I reallly like the idea of an external pump/regulator assembly, I think I can find enough room. My cell has an aluminum assembly for the filler cap so I'm sure I can mod that to facilitate a return line.

RussMcB, any chance you can list the parts used on your F1000 conversion, and a picture or two would be awesome!!!

Thanks guys!

Barry Ott

[RussMcB]

I'll be happy to, but my F1000 system was kinda unique because I used a stock Kawasaki bike's in-tank fuel pump and made my small reservoir tank emulate the bike's tank. I assume you'll use he HPD pump or something similar.

I'd find a place where you can put the tank. It can be small and any shape. A tall cyl is probably best. It needs three fittings: inlet from low pressure pump, outlet (at the bottom) to high pressure pump and an overflow at the top back to the fuel cell. Like SteveO, I used the cell's fuel filler neck for the return line (a weld-on AN bung).

I think, basically, you just need to figure out where all the parts will fit in your chassis. Yours will be different than mine also because the bike engine is so different than the Fit.

Nice things about the external reservoir is you can get almost every drop of gas before the HP pump sucks air, and it's nice to have easier access to the parts (as opposed to inside the cell).

on edit: I suppose your external reservoir could use the HPD pump inside it.

[Barry Ott]

Good advice, thanks Russ!!

Barry

[Rick Kean]

...my cell has two openings: an AN fitting "bonded" into the center/rear of the cell for fuel out and a filler neck "molded" into the top edge. i.e. I don't have a bolt-in plate to work with...

TIA,
Barry Ott

Hi Barry,

Wasn't fuel cell foam a part of the 1995 cell design from Van Diemen?

Rick Kean

[EYERACE]

Very important........how old is the cell you'll be using?

[Barry Ott]

Rick, it feels like there's foam in the cell, I'm not following your question??? My situation is that HPD recommends mounting the fuel pump/regulator inside the cell but my cell doesnt have any removable plate to allow for that.

Eye, it's the original fuel cell. I'm pretty sure it's "structurally" sound. The first time I drove the car I found out that the vent line has a valve in it that doesn't allow for any pressure relieve so as the car sat in the sun, the tank expanded like a ballon (and wouldn't let me fit in my seat). The cell certainly handled way more stress than it should ever have to, but I wondered if it was also stressed and *caused* a potential problem????? I'm very open to guidence!

On a related note, what's the deal with fuel cell venting? My car has a hose attached to a filler neck to vent the tank, it has a one-way valve that *was* preventing any flow out of the tank, which caused the cell to expand as described above. I reversed it, but I'm really unclear how it's *supposed* to be. I thought there was supposed to be a valve to prevent fuel spilling if the car is inverted, but doesn't it have to allow some pressure relieve????

Barry

[Dick R.]

Barry,

When Eagle checked my original 85 VD cell and replaced the foam they also added a filler plate for access. It seemed like this was a routine practice. Also I think someone on Apex did this himself recently . . . and others had before him.

Dick
CM 85
85 VD FF 1600

[Barry Ott]

Barry,

When Eagle checked my original 85 VD cell and replaced the foam they also added a filler plate for access. It seemed like this was a routine practice. Also I think someone on Apex did this himself recently . . . and others had before him.

Dick
CM 85
85 VD FF 1600

I left my original question open because I didn't want to lead the answer, but I was wondering if adding an access plate was a simple, economical answer or if I needed to get a new cell. I didn't even think of an external pump. I like the idea of following HPD's instructions, but I also like the access that an external pump provides. Mostly, I'm going on a business trip for 7 weeks and if the cell needed to be modified, I wanted to get it shipped off for before I leave.

Does Eagle work on ATL cells?

Thanks Dick, great help as always!
Barry

[Dick R.]

Does Eagle work on ATL cells?

Barry

It didn't come up since my 85 VD cell was made by Premier as I recall.

You are welcome. Have a good trip.

Dick

[Purple Frog]

Since Langbien converted a old Crossle to Fit, first thing that came to my mind would be to call him. She may have the secret decoder ring.

[racinray]

Barry,

I'm tackling the same challenge with my 97VD. I'm going to use an external pump mounted very low in the frame and an external adjustable fuel regulator with a line back to the filler neck. Eric L. is going to weld a tube and fitting up for me. I spent a lot of time thinking about where I would locate things over the weekend and ordered a bunch of stuff so that I could get it done. I will be documenting the process in my blog if you want to follow along, http://rayphillips.blogspot.com.

Ray

[SOseth]

I left my original question open because I didn't want to lead the answer, but I was wondering if adding an access plate was a simple, economical answer or if I needed to get a new cell. I didn't even think of an external pump. I like the idea of following HPD's instructions, but I also like the access that an external pump provides. Mostly, I'm going on a business trip for 7 weeks and if the cell needed to be modified, I wanted to get it shipped off for before I leave.

Does Eagle work on ATL cells?

Thanks Dick, great help as always!
Barry

Yes they do and I for one would highly rate their services. The original fuel cell in my 94 Citation needed to be replaced last year. I sent it to Eagle and they duplicated it perfectly.

Frankly hadn't thought of this until Dick R's post. Why not see if Eagle can modify your cell, but you might be money ahead to replace it considering it's age.

SteveO

[Rick Kirchner]

I think the top edge of the 90-97 cell is too narrow for any of the standard closure rings and plates. Fuel safe has one that almost fits and has the plates you are looking for CB-301, but the crosstube in front of the cell would have to be moved and the enclosure re-worked. the top edge of the VD cells is 3" wide and it looks like 3.5" is needed to make the closure plates fit.

You could have a bladder made to stock dimensions but with two of the "rubber duckey" fill tubes, one on each side and a big closure plate in the center of the front face. Use one of the tubes for fill, and weld the feed, return, and electrical fittings onto the fill cap on the other side. Put the pump in from the front, feed the hoses and wires in through the duckey, and you're done.

[Barry Ott]

I talked to John at Eagle today, super nice guy. Considering that the cell is the original item that came with the car, it makes sense to me to make sure it's ok, so I'll send it to them to test it. Similar to Dick R., if it's ok, I'll have them replace the foam, which means they'll need to add an access hole/plate assembly. I'll specify where I want the plate to be with the hope that I can attach the HPD regulator and pump to it, so my assembly will be similar to HPD's recommendation. If I can't fit the pump/regulator in it, then I'll go the external route with a known good cell. ....unless somebody tells me I'm doing something stupid :-)

Barry

[cgscgs]

"On a related note, what's the deal with fuel cell venting? My car has a hose attached to a filler neck to vent the tank, it has a one-way valve that *was* preventing any flow out of the tank, which caused the cell to expand as described above. I reversed it, but I'm really unclear how it's *supposed* to be. I thought there was supposed to be a valve to prevent fuel spilling if the car is inverted, but doesn't it have to allow some pressure relieve????"

Regarding your vent, my setup is like yours but the hose is mounted so the valve is only one-way when the car is upside down, to prevent spillage. When right-side-up, the sealing ball (or whatever it is inside there) falls into a position to allow air to flow both ways, preventing vacuum or the balloon effect you describe. Check your valve.

[Barry Ott]

Check your valve.

I will, thank you!

[RussMcB]

Barry, take a look at this thread: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38539

Post #22 has a picture of a new Eagle cell for my RF-94. They may have a pattern to make a cell for you.

Another thought: My Swift cell isn't super sturdy, so I'm not confident that the pickup is exactly where it should be (very close to the floor, but not "resting" the weight on the bottom of the cell). I think I saw (on apexspeed?) someone was clever and used something that did not hang the weight of the pump, regulator, etc. on the non-rigid cell top.

Hope that makes sense.

[Barry Ott]

Thanks Russ, That panel looks pretty close to what I'm thinking. I marked the chassis tube locations on the cell with a sharpy so they could position the panel as best they can to avoid the tubes. I'll search around to see if I can find the pump mounting you saw, maybe I can make some kind of thing that attaches to the pump and sits on the bottom of the cell to keep everything in the right place. If I figure something out I'll post it.

Thanks to everyone for all the help! Winter has it's advantages, more folks are hanging out on Apexspeed and giving great help :-)

Barry

[Dick R.]

Barry,

FYI when I sent my original cell to Eagle they did two things:

1) Copied the original Premier cell to make a new cell (with an access plate).
2) Inspected the original and since it was healthy added the access plate.

Since for autocrossing I run street gas most of the time, ethanol compatibility was important to me.

Both cells and the current foam use materials which are supposed to withstand current levels of ethanol in both street pump gas and several unleaded Sunoco race gas versions which are street legal and contain substantial ethanol (i.e. comparable to street gas).

Dick

[Barry Ott]

I'm a little concerned about shipping my cell. I drained all the old fuel out, and it's sat for several days with both openings, ahh, open, but there's still a distinct odor of fuel, even now that it's in the box I *hope* to ship it in. I covered the openings, but maybe not well enough??? For those that shipped used cells, did you do anything special before shipping it???? I guess I can take it to FedEx, tell them what it is and see what they say, but I'm not too optimistic that they'll ship it for me.

[Dick R.]

I'm a little concerned about shipping my cell. I drained all the old fuel out, and it's sat for several days with both openings, ahh, open, but there's still a distinct odor of fuel, even now that it's in the box I *hope* to ship it in. I covered the openings, but maybe not well enough??? For those that shipped used cells, did you do anything special before shipping it???? I guess I can take it to FedEx, tell them what it is and see what they say, but I'm not too optimistic that they'll ship it for me.

I had the same concern. Aired it well and then sealed it well in one or two plastic bags. Shipped either UPS or FedEx with no problem. No "declaration", etc. to the shipper. Check with Eagle regarding which shipper they use. One knows them well but I forget which one.

[Brad Smith]

I just sent mine to Hartwig via UPS ground. I sealed the openings, then put it into a double garbage bag with a little kitty litter for odour absorption. After putting it in a box, I clear taped the entire box to seal it, too. No odour and no questions from UPS. I would not send it via air, if it ever was involved in a plane crash, it might come back to haunt you!

[Barry Ott]

Cool, I'll try a little harder to seal it up before I take it to FedEx.

Thanks for the help.

Barry

[Rick Kirchner]

Flush with hot water for a while. The heat will unlock the VOCs and the water will carry them away. They're going to put an access plate in it anyway, so it will be dry with new foam when you get it back.

A little detergent wouldn't hurt either.

[ericlangbein]

Here's what a fuel filler neck looks like after being modified to accept a fuel return. The tube inside the filler neck turns down 90 deg so the fuel goes down into the cell rather than spraying around the filler cap or the vent. I did this for a car that has a non-access-port fuel cell with a fuel outlet neck at the bottom of the cell (important because many fuel pumps aren't designed to lift fuel) and have had no problems. This car is running an external Walbro GSL-393 fuel pump and an off the shelf adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

Why, however, aren't folks using Honda's stock fuel pressure regulator? It doesn't require a return, which would simplify conversions on cars without an access-ported fuel cell- is there an issue with the Honda regulator other than it being non-adjustable? I haven't used it because I only just learned about it.
Thanks,
Eric

[racinray]

Why, however, aren't folks using Honda's stock fuel pressure regulator? It doesn't require a return, which would simplify conversions on cars without an access-ported fuel cell- is there an issue with the Honda regulator other than it being non-adjustable? I haven't used it because I only just learned about it.
Thanks,
Eric

The main reason that I'm not using it is because you have to insert the actual regulator into a housing and I couldn't get it assembled. When I used a little more force, I bent the regulator.

Ray

[RussMcB]

Why, however, aren't folks using Honda's stock fuel pressure regulator?

I had a couple of problems with mine, was not able to easily resolve them after two attempts so I went with the external regulator. They may have improved them by now, though. If used, they should be bench tested before final installation.

[Barry Ott]

.....back to the shipping. I unpacked everything, added more tape & plastic to the filler neck, verified the fuel port was still sealed, put it in two 3 mil garbage bags with folded and taped openings, boxed it all back up (it *still* had a slight smell of fuel!!) and UPS took it, it was delivered yesterday. We came clean with UPS, told the lady it was a fuel cell that had been drained but has foam in it that retains a little and that it's sealed and wrapped up in two garbage bags. She was fine with it, said she smelled a little wd-40, no problem. I'm not sure she understood what "fuel cell" meant, but my conscience is clear and it got delivered :-)

Barry