Las Vegas Debacle
Jon, Oooops! Las Vegas it is. Where did I get the summary? I wrote it myself based on the facts and my own opinions. I know that the IRL is obligated to "investigate" what happened and why. But "what happened and why" is clear as day to anyone who's paying attention.
Unlimited Hydroplanes used to have open cockpits also. After my running buddy Dean Chenoweth died, they were updated to canopies covering full driver protection modules (including breathing supplies).
It's been many years since NHRA mandated rollhoops ahead of the driver's head in Top Fuel.
If they are going to keep driving overpowered IRL cars on small high banked ovals, canopies and/or cages are needed.
Yesterdays WSJ had an article quoting Randy Barnard(back in June) as stating the double file restart this year would increase excitement by creating more carnage.
After this weekend his comment was he must have been taken out of context or perhaps he mispoke.
Obviously nothing to do with restarts, but if that is the underlying motivation and that as a background how can anyone in the current management be allowed to stay?
John, I'm in total agreement with you on the summary. just wasn't sure if it was something from IRL.Originally Posted by John Merriman
Here's my question...other than Indy, why do we even need ovals? They haven't been attracting fans and its the ovals that have been the sights of most the horrific fatal crashes and massive destruction.
Some people say its tradition, but no longer are the majority of drivers coming from USAC and midgets. They're coming from lower level formula car series where road courses are the venues.
I say, keep the Indy 500. It in itself is a tradition and a month long exercise. Other than that make the rest of the season all road courses and improve the road courses for better fan accessibility. More grandstands, more jumbotrons, etc. Leave the ovals to NASCAR and spend the money where the fans are coming to watch the races. Concentrate on making the Indycar Series the best open-wheel road racing series in North America.
It's a much safer environment for the drivers and takes more driver skill to win. A good driver can better overcome a mediocre car on a road course, but on an oval if the car's not perfect, your S**t out of luck.
Just my personal opinion, as I'm just not an oval racing fan.
Last edited by ASRF1000; 10.20.11 at 7:52 AM.
Agreed, there are so many great American road courses that the Indycars don't see. Would be great to see them run races at all of the top American road courses.
LV II
Think LV is unique of the bunch, almost always turning (no drivers relief), high banking (granny (no gender comment of course coloquial english) can go flat out)........Michigan has less banking and separates by skill level....funny skill level would be a safety factor, have to giggle on that one,.....Bristol is similar but a short track and they don't run there........Daytona has long banked turns for bunching, don't run there........not sure about a couple of the newer tracks as compared to LV but if similar, off the list........like what Mario was quoted as saying and that brings to mind a single seater with fenders, hey we already have that in C-Sports although those are aero and would have to be structural.....so what we end up with is a similar car to C-sports with a pilots cockpit running at selected courses, cool, think I saw an artist version of such a thing somewhere!!.........and the inevitable is what someone said and that is that nothing would have protected such a G-Force.....the brain protoplasm (?) would have separated from the electrics to the rest of the body......yuk
That looks very cool, but looks to be very difficult to extract the driver.
USAC was at a crossroads in the late '60s...it was time for them to stop killing a driver a week all summer. Roll cages for sprint cars and midgets were met with howls of protest by "purists" who deemed them ugly, expensive and catalysts for more reckless drivers. But you know what, they stopped killing a driver a week all summer. This is really a crossroads situation for our sport. It's time for formula race cars to protect the driver's head with more than a helmet. Dragster-style roll cages would be the next step.
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
"Some people say its tradition, but no longer are the majority of drivers coming from USAC and midgets. They're coming from lower level formula car series where road courses are the venues. "
This is the problem for Indy Car. The open wheel fan base comes from sprints and midgets. This fan base is many times larger than of all road racing. NASCAR has the same type of fan structure. There is no such fan base in road racing. You just don't have convenient weekly/monthly racing venues in US road racing.
This does not speak to the subject of Indy Car's business model which requires street races and road racing events in other countries.
Brian
Because ovals are a huge part of what Indycar racing should be all about. It takes a different skill set to drive an oval, ovals have provided by far the most exciting and memorable races throughout it's history, and the premier American OW series wouldn't be premier without it.
They're coming from wherever someone will write a $x million dollar check for them. It's the only reason most of the teams exist. This is a series teetering on the edge of collapse. The events at LV didn't help them at all as far as attracting sponsors, fans, quality drivers and teams, future venues, and insurance providers. It's only a minor stretch to say it may be a fatal blow.Some people say its tradition, but no longer are the majority of drivers coming from USAC and midgets. They're coming from lower level formula car series where road courses are venues.
We're only lucky that the economy is so bad that the France family/ISC doesn't have a spare $half-billion on hand to buy the Speedway from the George sisters. Think they would keep the Indy 500 around in it's present form?
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
I beg to differ. The open-wheel fan base doesn't just come from sprints and midgets. Sure there are some, but if you look at all the spectators at Long beach, St. Pete, Toronto, Infineon, Detroit, etc. very few of them have ever been to a sprint or midget race. Ask most of them and they probably wouldn't even be able to tell you what a midget was.
Sure, midget and sprint car fans are fans of open-wheel racing, but that doesn't make up the majority of the fans. Indycar fans are fans that like the excitement of the event, not just the racing. Street races bring the show to the fans, which is one reason they are so popular. Die hard fans travel to road courses. Sure, there aren't weekly venues for going to see road racing, like there are in local stock car, sprint or midget racing. So, it's a bit harder to generate a die-hard fan base for road racing series. But, that's just the nature of road racing in the US.
But that said, if you build up the events to be huge events the fans will come. Maybe the fans at the ovals are more sprint/midget types, as can be seen by the small crowds, but that sure doesn't say much for attracting the larger number of fans seen at road course events.
The wind shield could be omitted for normal entry/exit, if needed due to injury, cut the top off like they do with GT cars.
I made a ERROR in not using the term OVAL open wheel racing.
I have no idea what brings spectators at Long beach, St. Pete, Toronto, Infineon, Detroit, etc. I would not expect it to be their interest in sprints or midgets.
I am not sure at this point if it is possible to run a successful oval "only" open wheel series. But any successful effort will have to draw on small track oval fans.
I think Indy Car's business model assumes 'oval only" is not viable.
Brian
At this point, of the 16 projected events on the 2012 schedule, only 5 are on ovals.
Extraction
It's been done for years. Exploding bolts and ejector seats!
LJS Motorsports
YES BUT!!!!!
These events normally happen in the air!!!! so you may need very good helmets and a steel reinforced spine as you are driven through the tarmac, instead of up into the air!!
It seems to me, that the configuration of the track and numbers on it would have more to do with this accident ( if you wish to call it that) than anything else, there is always going to be a element of danger in what we do, and massive strides have been made in safety have been made in the last 10 to 15 years, and the comments made by drivers in this event gave question to the safety of this race, but none of them had the balls to say NO, its easier to go and race and say it will not happen to me, but it did, and no one can say this was a freak accident, this was going to happen, shades of Dale saying HANS devices were for sissies.
Roger
It's been done for years. Exploding bolts and ejector seats!
What makes the IndyCar series unique is the need to be able to run on flat ovals, high banks, street circuits, and natural road courses. Back in the 60's and 70's the USAC championship trail required you to win in sprints, midgets, stocks, champ dirt, and Indy cars, and all but the indy cars ran on both dirt and pavement.
The diversity is part of the skill level that is unique even from formula 1.
Hair raising
I was just reading my November 2011 issue of Racer Magazine.
The article entitled "Temp Urgency" had a few paragraphs that were incredibly and unfortunately for-telling:
... Contrary to rumors that Bourdais and his wife Claire had decided ovals were too dangerous, "Seabass" insists his Peugeot sports car commitments prevented him from doing a full campaign in 2011. It's something he wishees to remedy in 2012.
"Claire wouldn't be thrilled to see me do the 1.5 mile ovals" he shrugs, "but I'm pretty good at it. I won the Las Vegas Champ Car race twice. Sure, for me, banked ovals don't create good racing. It's dangerous and it doesn't allow good drivers to shine.
All they show is that you're as stupid as anyone else. So, do I like them? No. Am I good at them? Sure - I'm as stupid as anybody else out there".
Oh my, he hit the nail on the head there.
I would also point out that things got silly-stupid in Indycar when the George family ousted Tony (say what you will, he at least raced) and then Joie Chittwood was forced out as well. The people running it had no business running a professional race series.
Tony Stewart's comments.
http://www.racer.com/stewart-indycar...MC-RACER_DAILY
Roland Johnson
San Diego, Ca
Wow. Seabass nailed that one. I always thought he was smart but he was dead on with that one.
Hello Roger and Chip
Let's not forget that Tony G. trashed the top rank of open wheel racing in the US. But your point about "the people running it" now, you are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CORRECT. I think it's also well understood that Penske and Ganassi are major players in the IRL. So how in the world did they agree to let those guys run the show? Incredible.
The people running NASCAR are the same people running it when Earnhardt died, the same people are running F1 when Senna died - It is not always the people, but sometimes it is the sum of the people.
What happened in LV fits my Plane Crash Theory. While you can point to one thing, it is usually a series of events, each by itself not serious, but taken together result in a massive failure - check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
Look at what had to happen:
1. 34 cars - who would have thought in April that they could field more than 20 cars - it was only by good promotion that they got 34 - should they have bad promotion?
2. Dan was not supposed to race - the story all year was that he only had a ride for Indy. It was his win and work with the new car that got his credibility back so that the even offered him the ride. Hildebrand does not crash in turn 4 and do you think 2nd place Wheldon gets the ride?
3. He had to start at the back. He was running by himself minding his own business. If he had started up front and was mixing it up..... who knows?
4. 6 inches either way and he either crashes in to someone's gearbox and breaks his legs or rips off the suspension and does not get launched. I am beginning to believe he instinctively or subconsciously aimed for the tire, which launched him.
5. If the drivers had set a maximum of 25 cars, then they could have run a heat race to knock out 10 guys or so. They do it in qualifying.
6. For someone who is so concerned about 3 abreast starts at Indy and passing lanes on road courses, BB could have said 2 abreast for the first 50 laps or you get black flagged
Change any one of the 6 and you get a different result - but could you have foreseen all 6? And remember Massa's incident in F1 how do you prevent that???
Changes need to and will be made - but constructive, not vindictive.
ChrisZ
IRL goes looking for the obvious
Well, it looks like the IRL "Management" is going to figure it all out with a massive "investigation" and "analysis" of what happened!
The Times reported today that the IRL President said that "The first phase of the investigation will evaluate data from accident recorders in the fifteen cars that were involved."
But coincidentally the answer was reported in the Connecticut Post newspaper on Monday in an article about a multicar accident on crowded Interstate Route 95 near Bridgeport which went something like this:
"On a very crowded section of Route 95 Sunday with cars travelling considerably above the posted speed limit, one car lost control and ran into another car. Twelve cars in the dense traffic behind, then crashed, their drivers clearly unable to react in time to avoid the accident ahead."
Can you imagine Roger Penske upon being asked "what happened?" responding with "Well, I'm not sure. I'm waiting for the data from the accident recorders to be analyzed." ?
Part of the problem has been solved:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96587
------------------
'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
the new car is so slow, no one will be able to get hurt. Good article about the POS that Dallara delivered.
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...lopment-issues
open wheel safety
Every time I strap into my F-1000 I feel exposed wishing for more protection.
Unfortunately as soon as I get on track I forget about safety because I enjoy driving this type of car so much.
How do I rationalize to my family as a recreational racer that keeping the traditional look of a Formula car is more important than safety.
Very early in this thread the idea of a NHRA Top Fuel cage for Formula cars was mentioned.
Has anyone pursued this concept on paper or on their Formula car for our level of racing?
There has to be an esthetic non-traditonal solution.
Herman
Getting rid of Barnhart is the best thing that can be done. Only problem is it is about 12 years too late.
I agree 100%. Two and a half years ago after Ron V's accident, I was determined to find some sort of solution. Turkeys and deer (Da Matta and this year another deer was almost hit by a vee at blackhawk) are especially popular up here in Wisconsin. Being a designer, I wasn't up for the full sprint car look. I started with sexy looking full cage concepts and worked down to a simple cowl splitter. Not every instance can be planned for, but I can still chip away at the problem. This splitter design wont stop Indycar forces, but will give me some odds against a turkey, body panel, suspension arm? It's a start.
Tad
Last edited by lenhart05; 03.26.15 at 1:02 PM.
Tad,
Interesting solutions to the "non-cage" cage. It would be an good project to have a design school to explore (with some practical guidence of course).
Jim
formula car safety
After seeing the photo posted on October 20, 2011 by Dennis Valet on this thread, I found hondoboatsinc.com that makes canopies (safety capsules) for dragboats and more recently for Top Fuel Dragsters.
This web site also mentioned that formula cars could benefit from this technology.
I would not mind my Formula car having the outside drivers compartment appearance that the hondoboatsinc.com dragboat and canopied dragsters have, considering the added benefit of debris and roll over protection.
Peripheral vision and emergency egress would need to be addressed as well as compliance with SCCA rules.
The drag racers were concerned about added weight and so would we.
An earlier post mentioned the use of NHRA Top Fuel style cages.
Those cages do not look very appealing when naked, but when faired with body work as shown on the hondo website the cage is not visable.
Most of the time I race as a Formula S, so I assume these changes would be acceptable in FS as long as the current SCCA roll over structure remains.
I will appreciate any comments on this subject.
Thanks Herman
.
Ff roll cages
Back in 1984 (geez, was it really 28 years ago?), I took this picture of Norm Marx's Crossle 32 with a roll cage, on the pit straight at the long-gone and much lamented BRYAR Motorsport Park. There was a Lola 342 with a similar set-up at about the same time. It was easily removed with heavy pip pins at the two front mounting points and at the top of the main hoop. I recall that an errant tire wacked into the Lola's cage once and it bent it in - thus almost certainly preventing driver injury.
Thanks for posting that pic, John. I remember that car, and Norm. He was a pretty good source of race car parts. That was the name of his company?
Racer Russ
Palm Coast, FL
RACEWARE
Yeah, RACEWARE was Norm's company and he was THE parts and equipment source in the NER. He was also a goldmine of information, advice and encouragement for us Newbies. Hell of a guy. That was before TrueSports or Pegasus - or maybe just when Pegasus started. Norm had a little box trailer at the track and always seemed to have what you needed. Before I went to the school at Bryar in '83 I actually drove down to AUTOWORLD in PA and bought my driver's stuff from the one and only Oscar Kovaleski. Those were simpler times! Hell, the Regional entry fee was $65 and there were only half a dozen race groups!! By the way, that wet race was a Memorial Day "Pro FF" event won by Frank Bernstein who fought it out with Chris Fahan and Dave Weitzenhof.
Norm Marx
I ran into Norm at a booth at some Auto show last winter. I forget now what he was selling.
Ed
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