Better brakes

[nulrich]

150 mph? How about 200 mph?

The offerings from Alcon, AP, and PFC will all improve brake feel because they are stiffer (aluminum makes that easier) and have modern piston/seal designs. An argument that one caliper has less "drag" than the other is a red herring: none of these calipers have measurable drag if properly installed and serviced. (Simple physics will allow you to quickly determine that if they did, pads wouldn't last long and we'd have problems with boiling fluid.)

Brakes get more important as the difference between straightaway and corner speed grows, downforce increases, and cars get heavier. In FF/FC/FB we don't slow much for most corners, don't make much downforce, and don't weigh very much. These cars just don't spend much time braking.

On the other hand, unsprung weight is important in braking, cornering, and acceleration. We spend a lot more time doing that! In fact, the only place where you could argue that unsprung weight isn't important is on the last part of the straightaway.

I believe that all else being equal, unsprung weight is the most important characteristic of a caliper for these cars. Every race car designer I know agrees.

Just for reference, a modern F1 caliper weighs...get this...3.5 lbs! And they are made from aluminum, not some exotic MMC material. A modern four-piston F3 caliper weighs just 2.6 lbs. If they were legal, we'd be running our four-piston caliper design that runs 2.2 lbs.

For what it's worth.

Nathan

[tonyave]

What Mario is refering to is that the brakes serve a much greater purpose than just slowing the car down, they are used to balance the car in subtle ways while applying and releasing them. Granted in a FB car the brakes tend to be less of a factor than say one of our Trans Am cars, but only in as much as you don't need to stop as often/much.

As to the drag, Nathan you are simply wrong when it comes to thinking drag on the pads would show excessive heat. I suggest you take part in 10 percent of the restrictor plate stock car testing I have done in this area. Im not saying its apples to apples, but Im telling you the assumption you make there is laughable to those of us who have actually spent a lot of time/money working this stuff out for people who pay whatever it takes cause there is huge money on the line for them. No offense but you all are merely dabbling by comparison (as am I when I don't have their money to spend). Theories are one thing, proof by practice is what wins the day however. Don't feel bad, plenty of 'experts' see the lack of difference in rotor temps at Talladega and claim there is nothing to gain by pushing the pads back. Yet its worth lap time EVERY time.

I am actually posting only as a source of information, one huge benefit we see with the PFC calipers on the bigger cars is that they last a lot longer before they get 'soft'. In fact I have yet to see one degrade to the point that the Alcon, AP, and in particular Brembo stuff does. Now, you may not see that with the limited amount of racing you all do, but when you run a lot, like we do, it makes a difference.

Lastly, Im continually amazed at how much bench racing BS goes on with these message boards. I do see a few names here that also win (Coop), but there seems to be a lot of wasted time talking about 'theory', yet those theories are rarely moved past the damn website. How many pages of BS was there about the Radon side panels? To here them, and others, talk about that thing you would think it was the 'car to end all cars". Has it actually even won a race yet?

Tony Ave

[nulrich]

As to the drag, Nathan you are simply wrong when it comes to thinking drag on the pads would show excessive heat. I suggest you take part in 10 percent of the restrictor plate stock car testing I have done in this area. Im not saying its apples to apples, but Im telling you the assumption you make there is laughable to those of us who have actually spent a lot of time/money working this stuff out for people who pay whatever it takes cause there is huge money on the line for them. No offense but you all are merely dabbling by comparison. Theories are one thing, proof by practice is what wins the day however. Don't feel bad, plenty of 'experts' see the lack of difference in rotor temps at Talladega and claim there is nothing to gain by pushing the pads back. Yet its worth lap time EVERY time.

You clearly don't understand. Do the math. Comparing a 3500 lb 800 hp car at Talladega at, what, 200+ mph that rarely uses the brakes to an F2000 car on a road circuit is a huge stretch.

Just a wild guess, but are you sponsored by PFC? If the PFC calipers are a must have why does Tony Stewart use AP calipers? And Kyle Busch use Alcon? (Yeah, I know, I'm falling into the PFC marketing trap by saying that, sorry!)

No offense to you, I don't know you or your background, but I will trust the expertise of the Alcon engineers, with years of winning F1 and F3 experience, over your anecdotes about a totally different sport. And over the marketing claims of someone who doesn't understand basic physics.

How many pages of BS was there about the Radon side panels? To here them, and others, talk about that thing you would think it was the 'car to end all cars". HAs it actually even won a race yet?

I'm sorry it was "BS" to you, but to many it was an important discussion about a type of racing we love. There were some irrelevant postings, but in general it was a good opportunity to air both sides of an issue. I learned a lot. You didn't have to read it!

No, the Radon Rn.10 has not won a race yet. I'm sure it's because we don't use PFC calipers.

Nathan

[tonyave]

So what was the net result of the panel discussion anyway? You had the whole world of FC up in arms. (I was a little envious) lol.

Say hi to Phil Stubbs for me....

[tonyave]

Oh and by the way, I do understand. Let me explain;

The cars at Daytona/Talladega make about 400 RWHP. Not 800 HP. And to qualify its a real trick to get up to speed in two laps. Your point still doesnt cover the fact you claim any measureable drag would show a lot of heat, in my experience it does not. In fact measureable drag on a supposed 800 HP 3500 pound car would HAVE TO show more heat than a FB car, to follow your earlier theory. Again, it does not.

As to using the brakes at those tracks......here again I'm not trying to argue, just inputing info to the discussion that you do not have. Those guys RIDE the brakes, a lot, to the point that we had to go away from the 'blade' type rotors and start running beefier stuff cause the rotors would warp. When your leading, you ride it some to keep from pulling away from the car behind you, when behind you ride them to keep from getting a run at the wrong time, or causing a wreck. (The current two car push on it like crazy situation notwithstanding). The ability of the caliper to 'pull away' the pads is everything there. The contraptions tried and retried are too numerous to mention. Think what you want, but more effort has gone into that subject at those two tracks than anywhere.

I have won Trans Am races over the last two years with Alcon TA6 calipers, Brembo Calipers, and PFC stuff. All of it can be made to work. In my opinion, and its based on my experiences both in sports car racing as well as single seaters, sprint cars, etc., is the latest PFC calipers are great long term performers, and frankly we sell all brands so there is no reason outside of performance for me to say that. However as I see you sell Alcons, I understand why you prefer to push those.

[Chris Livengood]

No offense but you all are merely dabbling by comparison (as am I when I don't have their money to spend). Theories are one thing, proof by practice is what wins the day however. Don't feel bad, plenty of 'experts' see the lack of difference in rotor temps at Talladega and claim there is nothing to gain by pushing the pads back. Yet its worth lap time EVERY time.

Offense taken. Leading an offensive statement with the words "no offense" does not, I assure you, make the statement any less offensive.


And I know that you are "actually posting only as a source of information" but I fail to see any empirical evidence on your part. I'd think that "when you run a lot, like we [you] do" you could produce some.

[tonyave]

See the post above yours, merely stating my experience with a variety of companies parts, for the last 20 years or so. Don't get so sensitive,

BTW, I have watched the FB stuff closely (or at least as close as I can) and while all this techie stuff is interesting, the class is still at a point where the driver makes the biggest difference, Brandon hauls the mail in that thing, and would win with whatever brakes he puts on it. As others come to grips with how to get around the racetrack like he does, these little things will become more important.

Tony

[nulrich]

Tony:

You are misunderstanding how we (and Alcon) measure brake drag. Certainly not anything as crude as measuring maximum temperature or seeing if the brakes fade! My point was that if the existing calipers exhibited as much drag as Darrick claims, we would see clear evidence of it without specific data collection. There is no measurable drag with an Alcon caliper, using sophisticated methods both on the brake dyno and on the track, so it's not possible for the PFC calipers to be better (unless they somehow provide motive power, which might be the next marketing claim ).

Again, I know little about you, but I think you are greatly underestimating this community. The F2000 Championship Series, where Chris Livengood finished second in 2011, is the most competitive road racing series in the country. By far. 30+ competitors on most weekends, pole position decided by thousands of a second, the top ten covered by fractions of a second.

Teams regularly log and analyze many hundreds of MB of data in a weekend. Budgets are often small, but that doesn't prevent all kinds of ingenious ideas. The competitors, in general, are careful about where they spend their money, but if there was a measurable advantage to be gained from something like brake calipers most would have them.

FB cars are some of the most sophisticated in the world. I think Brandon will be the first to tell you that, although he is a good driver, he's not the best driver in FB. He makes up the difference in other ways.

I've worked at all levels of motorsport, including IndyCar and F1, and I know a fair bit about the technology (or lack of technology) in NASCAR. Many of my friends work or have worked in the Sprint Cup series. I don't follow it, and I apologize for my ignorance of horsepower levels on the superspeedways, or how brakes are used, but it's completely irrelevant to this discussion in my opinion.

When I designed the Radon Rn.10 I had a completely clean sheet of paper. I could have used any caliper from any manufacturer. I reviewed the available options, including the PFC calipers, but decided to use Alcon. I then had an opportunity to work with Phil Stubbs (I will tell him hello for you) and the Alcon engineering staff in the UK, and that reinforced my decision. By the way, although we do sell Alcon calipers to F2000 series competitors (because we already carry them for our cars) we make very little money on them. We just think they are the best available parts.

Nathan

[tonyave]

Fair enough. I read it as though you felt there would be some large amount of heat shown by the rotor and brake system if there were to be gains made by reducing drag. And in my experience (including the Toyota Atlantic series event at Nazareth speedway that I won in 2001) you could retract the pads and gain speed, but see no difference in temperature.

I ran LMP 900 cars for Riley Technologies and spent countless days testing every imaginable thing you could think of, and repeated the experience with their Indycar. The thing that stands out is how the data doesn't always mean what you think. You still have to see how it relates to the stopwatch. BTW, we were running a $250K megaline no lift autoblip paddleshift system then (02). If you would have told me then that a system like the geartronics would be available for such a low cost I wouldn't have believed it. Progress....


As to the F2000 series, I am good friends with Mike Rand, we will be doing a little co-promoting in the near future, and I am very impressed with the series, especially the car count. What is most refreshing is the total lack of 'spec' racing, which in my opinion has sucked the life out of single seater racing for over a decade. I competed in Pro Atlantic during the mid-late 90's, we had 40 plus cars at Homestead, I won 25,000 that day with a used car a friend of mine bought, we were one of the smallest budgeted teams in the field. Long Beach and Montreal were 40 plus cars as well. 1998 came around and the Swift was introduced, costs went through the roof, the cars were really sorry pieces that first year, you werent allowed to make your own parts, hence we just didn't have the funds and I took a ride in the Central American GT series, winning my first of several titles there. Really missed the Atlantics though....hopefully Mike Rand's new series can do for it what he has done for f2000.

[S Lathrop]

What is most refreshing is the total lack of 'spec' racing, which in my opinion has sucked the life out of single seater racing for over a decade.

You can't say that enough.

I have been trying to eigineer cars for kids that have come out of spec series.

What you say about spec cars is absolutely true.

When a kid gets to Indy Lights, I can't teach him anything about setups in a car that goes 190 mph. He has to bring that skill with him from lower classes.

[glenn cooper]

Gary,

I'm going with the Alcons.

I too am looking for better brakes for the FB. I'm not sure what has been going on but looking at my data it takes about 200 feet for my brakes to come into maxiumum torque on my linear G data. This car has had the worst brakes of any race car I have driven. I'm going with a complete change up. New calipers, rotors and pads.

Wow Dan I am very suprised to hear this about your Nova Diemen.
My ND had LD20's Fr and LD 19 Rr w/ PFC FC Spec semi floating (?) rotors, and I thought they were pretty brilliant for being cast iron 2 piston lumps.

When I got the car I put new piston seals and bleed screws on all four corners - call it a rebuild if you like (!) I ran PFC 01 pads btw.

I would suspect something is major league wrong somewhere in your car's brakes (what exactly I have no idea) but to be labeled so heinously (worst eva...) has me thinking somethin's not right.

Have you compared your components to Mike B's to see if you guys are running the same stuff?

[starkejt]

I wonder, is Dan unbolting the caliper and tilting them to bleed? Hard to get that last bit of air out of ICPs otherwise.

[Rick Ross]

Dan,

Coop has a point. Are you logging front and rear brake line pressures?

[starkejt]

Okay, I reread the thread. Where did I get the idea that Dan had ICPs?

[glenn cooper]

Sleep deprivation.

Happens all the time this time of year.
Probably too much Home Shopping Network for you!
Have a glass of wine, an Ambien, and put on some classic Radiohead.
I guaran-damn-tee you will sleep like a baby...

[starkejt]

Sleep deprivation.

Happens all the time this time of year.
Probably too much Home Shopping Network for you!
Have a glass of wine, an Ambien, and put on some classic Radiohead.
I guaran-damn-tee you will sleep like a baby...

Change Home Shopping Network to Amazon.
Change wine to IPA.
Delete Ambien.

Love Radiohead. In my top 3 for sure.

[Gary Slahor]

Brett,

Check your PM.
I've been trying to get in touch with you regarding your experience with the Aluminum AP calipers.

[Northwind]

Fella's

My brake issues are probably related to pad compound and rotor surface condition. Since the car is going on a major league diet, the new calipers are to start saving weight. New rotors to update away from the rear LD 19 .250" rotor and be compatible with the Alcons on all four corners. The pads that are in the car came with the car and had some spares that I put in as a replacement. I'm not sure what they are. I will take a picture of the box labeling and maybe somebody on here can identify them. I never had an issue with soft pedal so air was not the problem. The problem was very high pedal pressure and very little torque compared to the cars I have driven in the past. Since I'm making changes I'm starting with a clean slate.

Thanks for the love and caring

[starkejt]

So you're going from LD19s with mystery pads and 1/4" rotors to Alcons with 3/8" rotors and known good pad compound? That will probably feel like an upgrade!

[Northwind]

I certainly hope so.

[starkejt]

This seems like a good place for Nathan to post the pics of the new Alcon rotors that he promised a while back....

[nulrich]

Sorry, I'd forgotten about that. Here's a photo of the Alcon rotors. They are the highest quality material and heat treat available, no compromises. We've been very happy with them, but I won't claim they will make any difference in your lap times.

Retail is $189. We've sold out the first batch already, but should have more in January.

Nathan

[brownslane]

What Mario is refering to is that the brakes serve a much greater purpose than just slowing the car down, they are used to balance the car in subtle ways while applying and releasing them. Granted in a FB car the brakes tend to be less of a factor than say one of our Trans Am cars, but only in as much as you don't need to stop as often/much.

As to the drag, Nathan you are simply wrong when it comes to thinking drag on the pads would show excessive heat. I suggest you take part in 10 percent of the restrictor plate stock car testing I have done in this area. Im not saying its apples to apples, but Im telling you the assumption you make there is laughable to those of us who have actually spent a lot of time/money working this stuff out for people who pay whatever it takes cause there is huge money on the line for them. No offense but you all are merely dabbling by comparison (as am I when I don't have their money to spend). Theories are one thing, proof by practice is what wins the day however. Don't feel bad, plenty of 'experts' see the lack of difference in rotor temps at Talladega and claim there is nothing to gain by pushing the pads back. Yet its worth lap time EVERY time.

I am actually posting only as a source of information, one huge benefit we see with the PFC calipers on the bigger cars is that they last a lot longer before they get 'soft'. In fact I have yet to see one degrade to the point that the Alcon, AP, and in particular Brembo stuff does. Now, you may not see that with the limited amount of racing you all do, but when you run a lot, like we do, it makes a difference.

Lastly, Im continually amazed at how much bench racing BS goes on with these message boards. I do see a few names here that also win (Coop), but there seems to be a lot of wasted time talking about 'theory', yet those theories are rarely moved past the damn website. How many pages of BS was there about the Radon side panels? To here them, and others, talk about that thing you would think it was the 'car to end all cars". Has it actually even won a race yet?

Tony Ave

Tony, I agree with everything you have said. Part of a brake caliper "drag" is actually aerodynamically created. Aerodynamic drag does not create heat, but it has a significant affect on rotation of the brake assembly.

Unfortunately your (perhaps valid) remarks about nonsensical blathering by those of us who have not won as many races as you, or who have not engineered winning formula one teams does not change the fact that this sport is a central part of our lives....same as you....and that some of us make our living doing this stuff....same as you.

Demeaning people who race cars with less horsepower or lower top speeds than you does not make us any less dedicated nor less committed to making things right.

Your post that I quoted above is based on factual knowledge that you have learned at the highest echelons of motorsport. Personally I appreciate both the information and that you took the time to share it with us.

Perhaps the way you stated your point and the personal nature of your comments about Nathan's efforts take away from the facts you are stating. For me, as soon as I hear an insult, I write-off the poster and his comments. I am too old and have been around too long to listen to it.

Ya, sometimes the forum is a bit of a tower of babble, where anyone with any half-baked idea has a vehicle to throw his ideas out there. Some of the stuff on these posts are ....shall I say, less-than-accurate? The only thing that is worse (for me) is to have to read posts that insult someone else, or demean them.

Please keep on posting. Your input is really valuable. Can you please humour those of us who you feel are less knowledgeable than you? I always think there is always something out there to learn if you can listen hard enough....

[tonyave]

I'll agree with your read of my post, however believe me when i say i certainly didnt mean to offend any of the racers here. My tone was largely based on the condescending tone i read in a lot of Nathans comments. He points to an assumption of something, say in this case heat in the rotors and fluid boiling etc., and so when you point out actual experience proving otherwise he essentially says i dont understand, do the math, etc. Then says it doesnt apply to the topic. Forgetting of course he brought it up in the first place. Ive run into a lot of engineers that tend to talk in circles, and give the impression they already know the answers to every question you could possibly think of. Inferring others methods are crude, and so on. Frankly his tone deserves more replys like mine, if for no other reason than his opinions shape what some people reading here are going to spend their hard earned money on. And they will listen to him because in a few cases they just dont know any better and the guy sounds like he has a handle on it.

I think the FB class is the coolest thing to come along in a long time, and really appreciate the speeds you can run for the dollar. I know first hand how talented guys like Schweitz are, better than most pros ive run against. Guys like that know i respect them, they have thick enough skin to handle it. So, sorry to those that dont know me.

However, when a guy that has written press releases saying the van diemens were past the point of improvement so much so that he was going to produce a clean sheet of paper car, avoiding the mistakes of other lower formula designers thanks to the help of USF1 captain Ken Anderson, assisted by a fleet of designers both here and the UK, and that they are going to run 4 cars in 2010 (this was a dec 2009 announcement) and so on, then proclaims another companies methods as strictly PR speak and lacking knowledge of racing physics.......sometimes it strikes me that people should be held accountable for what they promise. Call it a weakness.

[tonyave]

Tom,
PS. Your manner of expressing yourself is impressive, I will take note.....

Tony

[brownslane]

Tom,
PS. Your manner of expressing yourself is impressive, I will take note.....

Tony

Tony, when you reach my age and state of decay, the only thing that is left to be impressive is your manner of expression !

FYI, I have been building formula cars since the eighties. My first "bike-powered" car was a F-4 with pushrod all round in 1985. That basic design is still winning races. My first F-1000 car was built before the class began. Jeremy Hill qualified one of my chassis in the runoffs in FC some years ago. That car, originally built in 1988, still has two FB class records out east. Credit where it is due; Jeremy converted the car to 1Litre, not me. He does great work! And let me say he can still hustle a car around out there!

All the chest-thumping aside...the proof is in the pudding. I share your point that it is all rhetoric until the car kicks butt on the track. And if THAT were easy, everybody would be doing it! These FB cars are soooo cool! There is so much room for development in these cars, tires being the major factor in their success. When somebody really is able to engineer the car to the tire, we will see a big drop in times (IMHO)

Me, I have moved over to closed wheel SR cars. I am building a new-gen CSR right now. I wish I had the budget, but the car will be right up there (I hope). I have a couple of DSR projects under way as well, one with a closed coupe body.

My first (and most favorite) cars were and remain open wheel. FB is the best class out there right now and has the most room for evolution.

Thanks for your compliment. I will take it as your Christmas present to me. Keep posting, man. You make sense and we ALL need as many professional inputs as we can get.

Best,

[tstarke4]

Interesting that two of the posters who were "dismissed" by Mr. Ave in posts since deleted (why mine was deleted I cannot fathom) have been fielding cars for the very driver (Schwietz) he holds in such high regard. I thank Tom for expressing my thoughts better than I did.

[dc]

I deleted posts that were verbally attacking other posters or flame baiting. Simple enough. Tony's original post was close to the line, but one condescending post begat another, so I erred to the side of symmetry.

Carry on...

[starkejt]

Mine probably should have been deleted.

Every time there is a hotly debated issue, here comes brownslane as the voice of reason.

[tonyave]

BTW, tell TS hi. And if he doesn't start winning again I'm gonna stop saying nice things about him

[a. pettipas]

This thread was waaay better before it turned from one of entertaining contentiousness to mutual admiration

[starkejt]

This thread was waaay better before it turned from one of entertaining contentiousness to mutual admiration

Did we just become best friends? Wanna go do karate in the garage?

[a. pettipas]

I would love to do activities with you sometime... you know, Josh, I really admire your erudition and the insight on various topics that you so eagerly share with our fellow ApexSpeed-ers...bravo... wait... I think we're becoming like them!!!

[starkejt]

In my defense, I have had Callin' Oates on speaker most of the day.

[Northwind]

Ok, here is the box from the pads I can't identify. Anyone?

[starkejt]

Maybe PFC 05? Just a guess based on 05 in the number.

ETA: googled the number, looks like I win

[glenn cooper]

You got Wednesdays pads on for the weekend!
WTH Maing?

[Northwind]

Take the first part of the "W' and separate it from the second half. Add in the mark on the top of the second half where the marker rode along the top edge of the box and the word turns into "USED".

I may have taken them out on a wednesday though.

[Northwind]

Thanks Detective Starke.

I had my money on you the whole time.

[nulrich]

For those interested in continuing to discuss brakes, here are some strange looking calipers:

http://www.alconusa.com/client_image...t.13_97_11.pdf

Alcon calls them Optimised Structure Caliper Architecture (OSCA) calipers, and they were designed using a software package which iteratively improves the caliper structure until it achieves "optimum" stiffness/weight performance.

AP has used a similar approach (and I believe the same optimization software) to come up with these.

Pretty weird looking! My gut instinct is they can't possibly be stiff enough, but they have been proven in test and on the race track.

The only problem is they can only be manufactured using a five-axis CNC machine, which makes them expensive. They're not legal for FB anyway.

Nathan