Front wing downforce?

[Mark H]

If the main wing on the front is at 0 deg. will it make downforce? What is a ballpark on the max you can turn the front wing up to?
Thanks

[Larry]

The short answer to your question is yes, you will still get downforce with a 0-degree angle of attack. This should also be the position of least aerodynamic drag. The maximum angle that the wing will still generate downforce is probably about 28 degrees, but you are generating a tremendous amount of drag, too. I would never expect to see that much AOA on a formula car. In the wet you may want to go up to about 12 degrees, but all these numbers are dependent upon the precise wing profile. A ballpark guess for a good mix between downforce and drag would be to start at about 7 degrees.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[FC63F]

Whether the front wing is one of the more modern Averill sections or even a flat top foil etc, in general, the maximum you would ever want to consider would be 12 degrees of angle of attack. Most of the fact based data, (Competition Car Downforce or Race Car Aerodynamics) all suggest that single element wings will reach stall at about 12-14 degrees angle of attack. At that point, the airfoil would generate tons of drag. With my car, the Averill wing is set at about 0 degrees angle of attack to balance the rear wings

David

[BrooksHall]

What year and type of front wing are you using?

We run the Averill (I call it the super wing) front wing on my 95 VD and I've got that thing trimmed out to about a 1/2 degree of attack. This is a very efficient wing and this seems to work great at Buttonwillow Raceway. We have some very fast corners along with some nice low speed stuff and two long straights that lead into some major braking areas.

[asw]

Whether the front wing is one of the more modern Averill sections or even a flat top foil etc, in general, the maximum you would ever want to consider would be 12 degrees of angle of attack. Most of the fact based data, (Competition Car Downforce or Race Car Aerodynamics) all suggest that single element wings will reach stall at about 12-14 degrees angle of attack. At that point, the airfoil would generate tons of drag. With my car, the Averill wing is set at about 0 degrees angle of attack to balance the rear wings

David

David,

Do you happen to have a cross sectional view of the Averill profile you have mentioned above?

[brownslane]

ASW,


Most wing profiles have taken years to develop with on-track development. Certainly the wings I have developed over the years have represented the culmination of that experience. These wings are the way great guys like Keith Averill earn their living. You should always consider them as proprietary.

[brownslane]

Mark, a simple and effective way to test wing efficiencies on track is by using a spray like WD-40 when you run the car. I spray the leading edge of my wings and then read the patterns left after a session. You should be looking for nice, straight lines running parallel to direction of travel. Areas of drag (like exposed bolt heads, rivet heads etc) will show up. When a wing approaches its maximum AOA, it will start to experience laminar separation, typically starting about two inches from the trailing edge of the wing and (perhaps) beside mounting tabs or end plates. The WD 40 will show you this. Follow the patterns. When/if you see the droplet streams starting to move opposite to the direction of travel you have stall or separation conditions.

It is cool to see, when you have reached this point, how the addition of a gurney will reattach the separated areas. You will have nice, straight streamlines running right to the trailing edge.

Of course, I am talking about the patterns on the underside of the wing.

Best,


PS. I have had good results running wings in the nose - up position. Don't be afraid to try the wing in as much as 1 degree of negative AOA....Although frontal area is increased, often downforce is increased with little/no increase in drag. And, again, ya need to try it with a couple of different heights of gurneys.

PPS. Really big gains in downforce (without compensatory drag increase) can be gained with the proper end plates. The key is to seal (or "trick" the air into thinking it is sealed) the airfoil to the track at the end plates. Huge benefits can be gained. But, as sliding skirts are banned, the secret is to create something like a "pressure ridge" that acts in a similar way. I always have run my end plates as low as I can go (by wearing them off). Dauntless have done a great job with a little "half moon" fence at the bottom edge of their end plates. This fence is a vortex generator and creates the "pressure ridge". Looks cool as well!

[Mike B]

8 years! Is that an Apexspeed record?

[asw]

ASW,


Most wing profiles have taken years to develop with on-track development. Certainly the wings I have developed over the years have represented the culmination of that experience. These wings are the way great guys like Keith Averill earn their living. You should always consider them as proprietary.

I see what you mean but the thing is on sale, is it not? I mean, most people on here use that profile and you would only want to hide it if you are running it only for your self and do not want others to see it.

I was just curious to see what it looked like.

[brownslane]

ASW,

This thread is about wing angles and setup.

Nowhere is it posted anything is for sale.

Again, wing profiles are proprietary. If you are interested in buying something, there is the forum thread elsewhere for that. But I would suggest that, even if I were selling something, I would not want to post the profile for someone else to copy. That is "dirty pool".

Wing profiles are only a small part of what makes downforce effectively. Span, proximity to ground plane, turbulence, sealing, pressure gradient effects from surrounding bodywork, all go into the design, testing and development of an effective aerodynamic part. That is why all wings do not look the same. A wing that works awesome on, say a 1998 VD FC car would not be the proper wing say for a DB4 FA.

There are a number of great books dedicated to wing design. If that interests you, PM me and I will be glad to make a few suggestions to you. Or if I have misunderstood your intent, then please advise.

Are you not in the wing design business or something in GB?

Best,