HNR Recertifications Required

[Phil Creighton]

Brad
There is no current rule that requires recertification of H & N restraints in the GCR nor is it likely for the 2012 season IMO.
Charles
As far as early FIA certification I would have to refer anybody to the appropriate manufacturer - I've only seen stickers.

I suspect the SFI recert is more driven by the Simpson/Hutchens folks as they have way more webbing straps on the device. Talking to Jim Downing at the ARRC he certainly wants to play safe and inspect them regularly so he's not disagreeing with the mandate. He pointed out that its not a cash cow at $15.

Phil

[Daryl DeArman]

There are two manufacturers who have SFI 38.1 devices. If one thought the $15 fee for a recert was a money loser they would have fought against it.

Wonder how many H-D vs. SS devices have been sold?

[Brad Ellingson]

No FIA sticker...sooooo...another recert. fee...unless Phil is right and the recert part doesnt make it into the GCR for 2012. Not opposed to getting it recertified...just wish it was made clear.....er.

[Phil Creighton]

Daryl
I am not defending the HANS people and I don't know what business you are in but $15.00 buys very little time these days from unpacking, examining, re stickering (these cost from SFI) and resending. Will there be some upselling - sure, but I think Downing is more worried about product quality issues down the road if the devices are left out there, according to our conversation.
That being said, I can't see this going anywhere for a while as even SFI realize that it needs phasing in.
Most devices are not even touched by this as FIA certification is currently dateless and most have it .
Our drivers device is FIA only and has been back for inspection once after a head on FC collision with a concrete wall at Topeka a couple of years back. They didn't charge for it BTW.

Phil

[Phil Creighton]

In answer to Brad and Bob Clark - there is NO requirement for recertifying a device that meets SFI 38.1 or FIA at the present time in SCCA competition.
Phil

[Daryl DeArman]

...there is NO requirement for recertifying a device that meets SFI 38.1 or FIA at the present time in SCCA competition.

That's great news, but lacking the FIA cert, how does an expired SFI 38.1 tag "meet" 38.1? The spec itself specifies a "required recertification period" (rule 2.7).

[Daryl DeArman]

...but I think Downing is more worried about product quality issues down the road if the devices are left out there, according to our conversation.l

I'm not an attorney, but he most certainly should be worried about product quality/liability with old devices (as should anybody manufacturing racing safety equipment).

Which is better:

(a) Just leaving them out there with a disclaimer saying don't use it if it's too old or shows signs of wear?

OR

(b) sending it back for a cursory inspection by the expert. One who's going to put another sticker "saying" it's good for another 5 years and then perhaps another 5 and so on?

Personallly, I wouldn't care if it's $15 or $150. I wouldn't want the liablity exposure. Why not just pro-rate them over a 10 year period and offer exchange wit applicable credit towards a new unit whenever the owner wants?

[Charles Warner]

Thanks Phil. I'll check with Jim as I bought it directly.

Cheers,

[Rick Kean]

...
2. Just because a company or organization is not-for-profit doesn't mean that it's holy, or its motives are altruistic. Not-for-profits must still pay their bills, and most of them want to expand and grow. The only real difference is that their tax filing has "excess revenue" stated instead of profit. Oftentimes the excess revenue is used t pay bonuses or to increase base pay....
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

Larry, thanks for popping that holy bubble! "Not-for-profit" infers nothing about an entity's internal business practices and motives, only their ability to create/construct an IRS balance sheet without Assets in excess of Liabilities...

Rick Kean

[Bob Clark]

In answer to Brad and Bob Clark - there is NO requirement for recertifying a device that meets SFI 38.1 or FIA at the present time in SCCA competition.
Phil

Maybe so but I see a conflict coming then. From the SFI website:


[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]September, 2011[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]September 28, 2011 - New Recertification Requirement for SFI 38.1 Head and Neck Restraint Devices[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]A recent SFI Specification revision now requires that Head and Neck Restraint Devices which are certified to SFI Specification 38.1 be inspected and recertified every five (5) years, effective January 1, 2012. Any existing certified device with an SFI 38.1 conformance label must be sent back to the original manufacturer for inspection after five (5) years from the date of manufacture punched out on the label. Product inspection, maintenance, and/or replacement procedure will be per individual manufacturer. Inspection must be done by the original manufacturer only, and not their authorized resellers or dealers.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]When a device is determined by the original manufacturer to be acceptable for continued use, that manufacturer will affix a new SFI 38.1 conformance label marked with the inspection date and it will be valid for use for another five (5) years from that date.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]Sanctioning Bodies requiring 38.1 devices will begin enforcing the five (5) year recertification rule as of January 1, 2012.[/SIZE][/FONT]
From OCT 2011 Fastrack:
[SIZE=1]GCR
[/SIZE][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1]1. #5810 (CRB) Language for Required H&NR
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1]Effective 1/1/12, in 9.3.20.C.2, replace "The use of a head and neck support system is highly recommended. As of 1/1/12, [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1]head and neck restraints meeting SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858 will be required.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1]" with "[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1]The use of a head and neck restraint system [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1]certified in accordance with SFI 38.1, FIA 8858-2002 or 8858-2010 is required; an SFI 38.1 or FIA 8858-2002 or 8858-2010 label must be properly affixed to the device.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial,Arial][SIZE=1]"
[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
Seems like a conflict here if SCCA is requiring a SFI 38.1 approved device but SFI says the sanctioning body will be enforcing the 5 year recertification rule.

Thoughts?

I sent my device in to HAN's. Turn around from the time I shipped it to when I got it back was less than a week.

[Phil Creighton]

Bob
At this point there is no GCR language that requires recertification of SFI devices as long as they met SFI or FIA specs.
Phil

[Matt King]

Bob
At this point there is no GCR language that requires recertification of SFI devices as long as they met SFI or FIA specs.
Phil

This is a critical point. I don't think SFI sets policy for the FIA or the SCCA.

[M.Sauce]

The $15.00 is not the issue with me it's more the hassle of shipping ,ups has lost several of my packages..I wonder how many tech inspectors are going to send drivers home at their first event for a non recertification issue.Are we safer after the certification?

[Charles Warner]

Bob
At this point there is no GCR language that requires recertification of SFI devices as long as they met SFI or FIA specs.
Phil

People are not reading fully. Phil isn't saying they have to meet current, changed, SFI specs. He says if they met SFI specs at one time. Past tense. No recertification. I'm not sure how SFI can by fiat claim they are decertifying all of the previously certified units.

It would seem the Club needs to make this point very clear to all tech inpsectors and publish a position statement that racers can carry with them to show a techie who hasn't received the message.

[Phil Creighton]

Charles
Its already been the subject of discussion at BOD level and we were informed by SFI that there is a transition period for sanctioning bodies till April (I think) due to the decisions timing. I can't keep a rogue techie from being a pain but the word will be disseminated via the tech email system
I'm not too worried about Florida in Jan since the only glitch would appear to be really early models that have no certification on them and the owners not realising it.

I've tried to keep on top of this since the decision was made to make them mandatory and we have pushed hard to make it user friendly. The SFI recert issue certainly caught us by surprise however and the timing was poor for the Club.
Phil

[Charles Warner]

Thanks Phil.

What about the Club just refusing to accept the (SFI) requirement to recertify? Seems to me they are changing the rules in midstream (to mix metaphors.) Tell them and the lawyers to pound sand.

[Brad Ellingson]

...Are we safer after the certification?

Come on Mike....you should know that stickers save lives.

[Daryl DeArman]

People are not reading fully. Phil isn't saying they have to meet current, changed, SFI specs. He says if they met SFI specs at one time. Past tense. No recertification. I'm not sure how SFI can by fiat claim they are decertifying all of the previously certified units.

there is NO requirement for recertifying a device that meets SFI 38.1 or FIA at the present time in SCCA competition.

At this point there is no GCR language that requires recertification of SFI devices as long as they met SFI or FIA specs.

His first post said "meets", his second says "met". Hopefully that was a purposeful change and it is met. As far as SFI decertifying previoulsy certified units---that practice isn't without precedent.

[Charles Warner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
there is NO requirement for recertifying a device that meets SFI 38.1 or FIA at the present time in SCCA competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Creighton
At this point there is no GCR language that requires recertification of SFI devices as long as they met SFI or FIA specs.

His first post said "meets", his second says "met". Hopefully that was a purposeful change and it is met. As far as SFI decertifying previoulsy certified units---that practice isn't without precedent.

There is nothing contradictory about these two statements. The first states there is no requirement to recertify any device that (currently) meets the specs. The second simply says there is no language that says one must recertify a device that (originally) met the spec.

[Daryl DeArman]

There is nothing contradictory about these two statements.

I'll let the linguists within SCCA determine what it really means in practice. To the plain ol' nitpicker like me, the sentences are contradictory until you insert what you believe they imply.

[scorp997]

Does anyone know if HANS will continue the FIA cert, as well as the SFI, on new products going forward?

Luckily the two HANS that I have (30deg & 20deg) are FIA stickered.

When the factory inspects the device, how critical to surface scuffs are they going to be? My 'economy' model is scuffed on the rear face where it touches the headrest, does not come close to the tethers (which were just replaced with sliding ones this last year).

[Marshall Mauney]

I hate to say it, but this really sounds like a thinly-veiled effort to remove all of the existing defNders from use in club racing. Pretty sleazy.....

Also, though it may have already been beaten to death, I would point out that SFI certification is NOTHING like UL/ETL certification. UL requires very stringent ongoing component and material source management, along with quarterly process inspections and periodic recertification tests. As I understand it, SFI isn't anywhere close to this level of control over the manufacturing process. Am I the only one who finds it odd that we put more effort into safety with a curling iron manufacturer than with racing safety equipment?

[DD16]

There are "hidden" costs on SFI recert. I sent my Hans in for recert. I got nicked for an additional $40 over and above the $15 recert. So it's not quite what we're led to believe. The Hans was made in 2005. It had two races in 2006 and has spent the rest of the time in my drivers bag in the closet. I retired But I was told I "must" replace the straps. Obviously timed out as the restraint could not have been identified as used.

I sent it in for recert because I've had too many techs misinterpret the rules on safety gear. Sure it would eventually be straightened out but for $15 plus shipping I thought it was a frustration remover. Just a FYI

[Purple Frog]

It's official. If you have FiA sticker, you are good to go.

RACING MEMO
DATE: November 14, 2011 NUMBER: RM 11-10
FROM: Club Racing Board
TO: All Participants
SUBJECT: SFI 38.1 Specification Head and Neck Restraint Devices
SFI recently issued a requirement of inspection and recertification every five
(5) years of all SFI 38.1 HNR Devices. The GCR does not specify this
requirement. Currently, SCCA is recommending, but not requiring, that SFI
38.1 HNR devices be inspected and recertified by the manufacturer every
five (5) years as per the SFI requirement.
Please also note that the SFI requirement does not apply to FIA 8858 HNR
devices.

SCCA will continue to monitor developments regarding the SFI-requirement.

[cooleyjb]

Actually it's official if you have either an SFI or an FIA sticker you're good to go.

SCCA is just recommending the recertification.