Infineon Accident

[budawe]

The flag station in 10 really is a porthole in a billboard. Many of the flag stations at Infineon are challenging for drivers. Remember the IRL incident with Will Power in 3b? We lost a dear vee friend in the same spot a few years ago. The track is very hilly and was worse before they shaved down all the hills to aid spectators. As I mentioned before, I have run there since 1977 and probably have more laps there than most. The track is very fast, challenging and dangerous. It also happens to be one of my favorites.

SF regions seems to be really compelled to stay on schedule. Shortened races, pace cars and short days are common. At Laguna, we're time restricted by sound controls; but at Sears and Thunderhill circumstances are different. Maybe the beer gets warm if we're late . Rarely, if ever, are the courses swept between races. Complaints fall on deaf ears. On Sat. an incident in turn 4 resulted in a major oil spill. We went green the next lap without any cleanup or grease sweep. When the field hit turn 4 on the next lap, there was another shimazzlle resulting in the retirement of several cars.By the way, I plan to write the CRB and request mandatory bolt on valve covers.

I have found the class combination with FC, FF, CF, 500 and vees to be very challenging. Especially when a faster car is turning times compatible with a slower class. The drivers among us know how fast things can happen and certainly, no one, especially the drivers, know all the facts. The goal here is to learn and improve our processes. Good luck to all.

[jhenn4716]

On Sat. an incident in turn 4 resulted in a major oil spill. We went green the next lap without any cleanup or grease sweep. When the field hit turn 4 on the next lap, there was another shimazzlle resulting in the retirement of several cars.By the way, I plan to write the CRB and request mandatory bolt on valve covers.

I have found the class combination with FC, FF, CF, 500 and vees to be very challenging. Especially when a faster car is turning times compatible with a slower class. The drivers among us know how fast things can happen and certainly, no one, especially the drivers, know all the facts. The goal here is to learn and improve our processes. Good luck to all.

It sounds like it's time for the drivers to unite and demand some changes. The notion of leaving oil without cleanup is just beyond belief. I hope that some way can be found to address the flag concerns, scheduling and grouping of the cars.

Putting multiple classes together can certainly be a challenge, and the mix of that many different cars is interesting to say the least. With the downturn in the economy and fewer and fewer cars showing up, sometimes groups get put together that maybe shouldn't be. Talk to your local board and get drivers to voice their concerns.

Nobody wants to see anyone crash or get hurt. We need try to find a way that we can all go home at the end of the day, say we had a ton of fun, and be ready to come back for the next race weekend.

[Steve Demeter]

having raced air cooled vw powered cars for many years bolt on valve covers is not the fix.

Proper installation and gluiln of the gasket to the valve cover is.

Also, need to make sure on a motor with exhaust coming down (type4) that the pushrod tubes are not touching the exhaust.

Lots os SV engines with bolt on valve covers by Bertil still leaked

[Tiago Santos]

Steve, Brian was referring to the (not as uncommon as you may think) clip on covers getting knocked off, which usually causes a nasty mess. It usually happens when wheels get tangled.

Like you said, the leaking out of the valve covers is easily fixed with either style cover and shouldn't be a problem

[problemchild]

When a bolted-on valve cover gets knocked off, it takes half the head. That's not cheap! I have had problems with bolt-on covers loosening up and even falling off. The fact that most FV competitors choose traditional covers, with their $6K engines at risk, would indicate that the FV community does not think bolt-on covers are better.

Perhaps, instead, we should require forward-facing trailing arms

This sounds like an unfortunate incident with a bunch of contributing factors, including driver error. Hope everybody recovers to compete again.

[budawe]

Back in the day, the West Coast pro series required bolt on valve covers and virtually everyone out here runs them. I do not recall anyone damaging a head. Usually the cast cover will break before damaging a head. The studs holding on the cover are easily replaced as well. Seems the folks up in the Northeast really have a problem with them. Maybe an exception can be made for forward facing arms that protect the valve cover.

[eboucher]

To backup the comments of Instinctracer, and as another driver who was out on track at the time, I believe this incident could easily have been avoided had quicker action been taken to slow all cars on track. At the time that Robert and Scott spun off at ten, the three of us in the lead pack were roughly between start/finish and T2. I was told over the radio at the time that two cars were off in a very precarious spot at T10 and to expect a full course caution imminently.

We proceeded through T2, T3, 3a, 4, 5, and 6, and as we headed up to 7, I was then told over the radio that another car had gone hard into the two cars already sitting on the outside of T10. For those of you that know Sears Point, from T2 to T7 in a Continental is roughly 30 seconds. Two cars sitting in a precarious position three feet off the racing surface at the track out point of T10 at Sears Point for 30 seconds with cars going by at racing speed is simply not smart, period. The instant that Robert's rear wing hit the wall the T10 corner worker should have been on the radio to RC asking for a full course caution to clear the incident safely.

It was not until I reached the exit of 8a (another 10 to 12 seconds after entering T7) that I finally saw a double-yellow being displayed on the outside of T9.

I have the utmost respect for the job that our corner workers do, and to be perfectly honest, I'm really not sure what happened in this instance. Maybe the T10 worker did in fact ask for a full course, but RC hesitated, believing that the drivers could clear themselves. Speaking with Robert this week, he was simply sitting there dead-in-the-water, waiting for a tow and hoping that someone didn't run wide, which is exactly what happened.

Anyway, I think a combination of factors lead to a very nasty incident, including what may have been a break down in communication between the T10 flagger and race control. When I've got a crew member yelling in my ear for 40 seconds that there's a major issue on track, and yet there's no double-yellow to slow traffic down to safe speeds, something's gone amiss.

Infineon has proven itself to be a treacherous place over the years. Just ask Will Power. The flashing safety lights in 3 and 3a have made a huge difference in driver awareness in that section of the track. Perhaps a similar solution in 9/10 needs to be considered. I completely agree that the T10 worker poking out through the hole in the billboard is all but invisibile.

In any event, both drivers are well on their way to recovering, and I wish them both the best. They're great friends and great competitors. The cars can be replaced.

Eric

[Bruce]

Speaking about the light now at turn 3, 3a, we as a group, our group 4, took it upon ourselves to offer a warning light there in 2001 after we lost one of our own to a crash similar to Will Power. The light was used for a short time but was not used permanantly for some reason or another, had the light been in use the accident involving Will Power, well there may have been a different outcome.

[budawe]

I really don't understand why a corner worker, at the scene, has to ask for a waving yellow. It would seem that if the worker feels it's necessary throw it. I'm not sure what the down side would be.

[Brad Ellingson]

I really don't understand why a corner worker, at the scene, has to ask for a waving yellow. It would seem that if the worker feels it's necessary throw it. I'm not sure what the down side would be.

A corner worker doesn't have to ask for a waving yellow. Technically the corner captain calls the flags so if he or she deems it necessary to go waving, they have every authority to do so. What they cannot authorize is a full course caution...that comes from race control based on information they receive from the corners. If I am on a corner and deem the situation dangerous enough then I call race control and highly encourage them to shut things down...YMMV.

[Tiago Santos]

I watched a small clip from a vee that was a few cars behind Marge and I had to go frame by frame on the video to see the flag on turn 10.. Really doesn't look ideal for such a high speed corner

[flat tappet]

Name calling and flaming are NOT allowed on ApexSpeed. This is the last warning that will be given. The poster of this comment has been formally warned, and the next flame attack gets a perma-ban from the forums.

The bottom line here is that we all know the risks and still elect to drive! Armchair quarterbacking does no good here. Other than hearing from the principals involved(who may not know all the details,either), every other opinion is either speculation or a guess!

[flat tappet]

The flag station in 10 really is a porthole in a billboard. Many of the flag stations at Infineon are challenging for drivers. Remember the IRL incident with Will Power in 3b? We lost a dear vee friend in the same spot a few years ago. The track is very hilly and was worse before they shaved down all the hills to aid spectators. As I mentioned before, I have run there since 1977 and probably have more laps there than most. The track is very fast, challenging and dangerous. It also happens to be one of my favorites.

SF regions seems to be really compelled to stay on schedule. Shortened races, pace cars and short days are common. At Laguna, we're time restricted by sound controls; but at Sears and Thunderhill circumstances are different. Maybe the beer gets warm if we're late . Rarely, if ever, are the courses swept between races. Complaints fall on deaf ears. On Sat. an incident in turn 4 resulted in a major oil spill. We went green the next lap without any cleanup or grease sweep. When the field hit turn 4 on the next lap, there was another shimazzlle resulting in the retirement of several cars.By the way, I plan to write the CRB and request mandatory bolt on valve covers.

I have found the class combination with FC, FF, CF, 500 and vees to be very challenging. Especially when a faster car is turning times compatible with a slower class. The drivers among us know how fast things can happen and certainly, no one, especially the drivers, know all the facts. The goal here is to learn and improve our processes. Good luck to all.

Ideally, it would be great if only FV's and formula 500's could run together but most organizers cannot afford the track time for such a small class. I have seen races where FV's were running in the same class as Spec racer Fords...now there's a sure plan for disaster!

[greg pizzo]

with the caveat that I WAS NOT THERE ...
I have stayed out of this discussion till now .
most people know that I have done most likely 100's of not a couple thousand laps around SPIR .. Infineon what ever ... OVER A LONG TIME .... BLAH BLAH BLAH

Im also a proponent that racing is DANGEROUS !!! ..... AND Im not a huge fan of needless full course YELLOWS .... all that said ...

it SEEMS that the flags could SHOULD have been more vigorous and earlier !! WAVING FOR SURE ... turn 10 is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS !!! even going OFF by yourself !
with 2 cars siting for near a 1/2 a lap and OBVIOUSLY not going anywhere WAVING YELLOW at t9 and maybe T8 would have helped a lot!!
I was present the day the Vee dr was killed at t3 ... sitting over t2 it seemed to a lot of folks there that day the yellows were late and not near vigorous enough then

what flag folks need to understand is YOU ARE COMMUNICATING WITH DRIVERS !! not the other way around. when I see a STANDING YELLOW I don't think some thing dangerous is right down the track !! although I take more notice and am LOOKING for SOMETHING I wont think there is a car ON or NEAR the track with out power ..

WHAT EVER the OFFICIAL DEFINITIONS are for standing waving and double YELLOWS ARE they are all TOOLS to communicate to driver that MAY NOT be able to SEE what you see
UNTILL WE GET THERE...TOOO LATE !!

if there was a car stuffed into T2 outside wall ..... a standing YELLOW might be okay at the bottom of the HILL .. But if the car was parked in the DIRT right on the edge of the track NO WAY !!! I would WANT to see a waving yellow ... and a standing before that .. unfortunately that would be START /FINISH ...

these cars seem to be located right off the track in one of the 2 fastest portions of track the other being T2 .the difference is T10 no one is thinking of slowing down more than just a WEE lift only MAYBE or MAYBE NOT .. so an IMPACT there is HUGE as it happened. A VIGOROUSLY WAIVING YELLOW at T9 at least would be what would tell me SLOW DOWN I mean really SLOW down !!!
an IMPACT some 30 SEC after a car comes to rest is REALLY UNEXPECTED and UNNECESSARY CERTAINLY could have been avoided ...

UNLESS there was OIL DOWN or something like that ... there would be NO REASON why THIS IMPACT should have happened

that all said ... I WAS NOT there but I know the track well ... lots of KART races and MORE FF and even MORE FC races there LOVE THE TRACK !!!

a LIGHT in T9 OR T10 OR both might really be needed !! FLASHING !! ....

seems like the Vee driver was mostly un aware of what they were driving into .. and short of OIL should been easily UNDER CONTROL of their car not to t-bone a parked car ..

racing is DANGEROUS but some scenarios need never happen

sounds like this was one of them .....
again I was not there .... but I WAS VERY SURPRISED to hear of it

[Roland V. Johnson]

Well said, Greg. Turn 10 is not a place to find unexpected surprises!

[Peter Horvath]

Eric
___

A bad day at the track is still better than a good day at the office!
Van Diemen RF96
San Jose, CA

A good day at the office is what pays for a bad day at the track.

[jwr914]

I held a National F&C license back in the 70's. Has the use of the waving yellow changed since then? When I was flagging, the waving yellow was only used when a car was stopped on the racing surface or sometimes just off the surface. How far off the course were the FC cars?

There is nothing in the GCR that mandates "paving/waving".

B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING
FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO
PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area.
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the
entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display
double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO
PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and
other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency
area. The requirements are still the same: SLOW DOWN, NO
PASSING.

The difference is level of danger. Not how far off pavement, not on the pavement just "Great Danger".

James Rogerson
FF #92

[Tom Duncan]

Regarding the mention of the turn 4 problems in the Saturday race at Infineon (which also relate to flagging, or lack thereof) I was the car that went into the oil and crashed out on the 5th lap restart, with apologies to Jon Brandstad whom I punted off. I understand the oil had been laid down in the first lap by a Vee losing a valve cover while climbing over Marjie's Vee.

No debris/oil flag was ever shown to me.

For more than two laps many cars of the starting grid of 41 had flown off the road, spun or gyrated wildly after hitting the oil in turn 4 and the corner workers had no idea. Even after a pace car lap nothing was done. I stood behind the flaggers box after leaving my car stranded on the track with broken suspension and one of the workers turned to me and asked "Is there oil on the track?" Ya think!? As I walked across the track a bit later to get into the tow truck I pointed out the oil to the workers and asked that they put down oil-dry. They stared at me blankly. I am pretty sure they did not know what I was talking about. It took the tow truck driver calling in to get oil dry down.

I do not fault the flaggers in this instance. They both obviously had no idea what they were doing and the fault for that is in both their training and placement, neither of which they were responsible for.

Clearly the San Francisco region is sub-par regarding flagging skills and whomever is responsible for recruitment, training and placement is not doing their job.

If the situation in turn 4 had been in turn 10 it most likely would have resulted in multiple unjuries, many cars severely damaged and possibly even a life or lives lost. Such a scenario could result in a negligence lawsuit, possibly shutting down the whole club. Waivers don't work when the offense is this big. This is serious folks!

The solutions are two-fold and simple.

Firstly if we don't have enough competent flaggers for all the stations (turn 6 at Thunderhill is regularly un-attended) we need to run shorter courses as can be done at Thunderhill and Infineon or cancel the event altogether as would be the case at Laguna Seca.

Obviously those choices are last gasp and to be avoided, but not at all costs, which is what appears to be the policy at this time.

Secondly we need to mandate driver participation in flagging. Many sports such as our Solo/Autocross require driver participation in the running of the event to compete. A former motorcycle racer told me it was common with some of the clubs he raced with.

Cancel an event or use a short course due to insufficiant numbers of competent flaggers and I am sure the drivers will stand up and demand action. Then demand the action comes from the drivers themselves in the form of mandatory working. Drawing from a driver pool for flagging seems obvious as they know what is happening on the track and what a driver needs to know.

I will be making the above suggestions to the club in letters/emails to to the region board, The Wheel (our publication) and to the specialty chiefs involved.

My faith in the standards of reasonable calculated risk dictated by the competence of the flagging has been battered.

This is not the first time I have been involved in an overly hairy situation because of incompetent flagging in a San Francisco region event. The scariest for me was when a novice starter at Infineon waved off a start by shaking her head side to side and then threw the green flag as the front rows went under the flag stand! If not for most of the drivers having radios such that their crew could tell them to go there would have been a massive pileup as the front of the grid slowed and the rest didn't. The drivers in the midfield and at the back were too far back to see the shaking head, they thought it was just a late green. I had no radio and was very lucky to not be hit from behind as the cars all came plowing by. I quit the race in disgust a few laps later and as far as I am concerned there was no race.

I have to question my continued involvement with San Francisco region racing as I feel I can no longer trust the flagging. I love the calculated risk but I have no interest in anarchy. Anyone see the racing scene in the movie "On The Beach"?

Tom Duncan
#27 RF98 FF SFR/SCCA

PS: How about writers start putting their real names on their postings? I would like to know who I am talking to and this avatar thing seems juvenile, especially with serious topics such as this.

[Steve Demeter]

I agree wholeheartedly on poor flaggers being an unneeded hazard.

But what have YOU done to help that situation.

Have you donated a prize or something for the worker drawings?

Have you worked a corner when you were not racing on a particular weekend.

Have you thanked the workers after a day of racing.

Do not speak poorly of workers unless you are helping with the situation.

There is a shortage of workers everywhere, not ust San Fran.

One thing is for certain is that if drivers continue to speak poorly of them, the situation will not improve.

My point is do not talk about poor flagging on an internet forum, talk about it with the stewards and race chairs and bring solutions, not just griping.

Remember that no matter how poor a job any flagger or race chair may have done to get sufficient well trained flaggers, they are all doing their very best to make the best of a situation that is not good at this time and bad mouthing them will only make it worse.

[Steve Demeter]

PS: The post immediately previous to the one just before this really ticked me off.

If it was not obvious.

[Tom Duncan]

[FONT=Calibri]OK Steve, to respond (your statements/declarations/questions in quotes first):[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]"[/FONT][FONT=Verdana]But what have YOU done to help that situation."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I am bringing attention to a dangerous situation and have made suggestions to fix it. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"Have you donated a prize or something for the worker drawings?"[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I (and many others) donate money towards our worker awards program (WAP) with every entry I make. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"Have you worked a corner when you were not racing on a particular weekend."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]No, I have not. I have observed on occasion. I race all available weekends for our regional championship and sometimes without crew. In addition we now have two-day events with two races so the down time between track events is often very short, sometimes just enough to just fuel and inspect the car. That being said, I am promoting driver involvement with a mandatory program, as I suggested in the post. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"Have you thanked the workers after a day of racing." [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]All the time. I have a "Thanks Workers" sign on my car and have had it for years. I make a point of looking at the workers on a cool off lap and signaling them specifically rather than just doing a princess wave. At one event earlier this year I gave my checkered flag to a worker. Ask the workers in our region if I am aware they exist. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"Do not speak poorly of workers unless you are helping with the situation." [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I am helping with the situation. I have stated a serious problem that exists and have suggested solutions. Have you? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"There is a shortage of workers everywhere, not just San Francisco."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Irrelevant. I am concerned about my region in the cases outlined and the subject of the thread is the events at Infineon. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"One thing is for certain is that if drivers continue to speak poorly of them (workers), the situation will not improve."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]It will improve if the problems are recognized as existing and recommendations for solutions are made, as I have done. Have you? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"My point is do not talk about poor flagging on an internet forum, talk about it with the stewards and race chairs and bring solutions, not just griping."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Read my post again, especially where I state: "I will be making the above suggestions to the club in letters/emails to the region board, The Wheel (our publication) and to the specialty chiefs involved." Did you even read my post? [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]"[/FONT][FONT=Verdana]Remember that no matter how poor a job any flagger or race chair may have done to get sufficient well trained flaggers, they are all doing their very best to make the best of a situation that is not good at this time and bad mouthing them will only make it worse." [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]There is no 'bad mouthing', just statements of fact. Poorly trained flaggers were placed and they shouldn't have been. Flagger count and training is lagging and should be fixed, for which I made suggestions. I appreciate that in most cases people are doing "the best they can" but if it isn't good enough it isn't good enough. [/FONT]

I ask again, did you read my post?

Please respond.



[FONT=Verdana]Tom Duncan[/FONT]

[mousecatcher]

Clearly the San Francisco region is sub-par regarding flagging skills and whomever is responsible for recruitment, training and placement is not doing their job.
...
This is not the first time I have been involved in an overly hairy situation because of incompetent flagging in a San Francisco region event. The scariest for me was when a novice starter at Infineon waved off a start by shaking her head side to side and then threw the green flag as the front rows went under the flag stand!

I thought that Infineon insists on using their own paid corner workers, which is part of the reason the track cost is so high and we only have 1 weekend there now.

[Hardingfv32]

This sounds like a group with a serious aversion to risk. Possibly it just the high average age of the SCCA membership. 20-30 years ago no one would question the conditions at turn 10. I am sure many older members would have raced without corner workers at this turn 20-30 years ago. This is a wonderfully dangerous turn where yours or another drivers mistake can be very costly to your health. Enjoy it while you can, as all your complaints will ruin this turn at some point.

A number of drivers made errors in this accident. This turn can extract a high price for even the simplest of mistakes. That is the beauty of turn 10. This turn requires a total commitment that can sometimes get you hurt.

The SFR region has one of the best worker groups in the nation and, if anything, are know for the quickness of their use of full coarse yellows.

If your are concerned about racing at a SFR event at Sears Point, maybe it is time for a new hobby.

Brian

[mousecatcher]

Excuse me, but you sound like the guy that refuses to wear his seat belt, considers child safety caps to be a nuisance, and doesn't need his kid to wear a bicycle helmet (we didn't in our day).

No one is, e.g., complaining that the shops behind turn 10 should be torn down for runoff area. The only complaint is that current best safety practices are not being followed.

[Tom Duncan]

Thanks Frank (mousecatcher) for your reply, I was working on my own but yours says it fine. "The only complaint is that current best safety practices are not being followed."

Tom Duncan

[Thomas Copeland]

I also driven hundreds of laps at Infineon. It can be, and is, a very dangerous place.

It's very hard to assess blame for an any incident like this. Even if you were right there standing trackside watching it unfold. Anybody that has every driven Infineon at speed can tell you there are so many blind corners that even with flags, whether they are standing, waving, crossed, or whatever, unless you are prepared to come to a complete and total stop you simply can not know if you are travelling too fast for whatever awaits you around that corner. How can you? That corner is blind, and until you are confronted with what is on the other side of it you simply can not know. What if the road was almost completely blocked? How would you know? And would you have known that you needed to slow to 40mph (or 20, or 10) from that 100+ mph you are probably doing? You don't know.

Chances are she probably did slow, but not enough, but that's assuming she even saw the flag at all. Which was exactly the issue in the 2001 accident. Driver's didn't see the flag, partly because the location of the flag stand was off their line of sight. They evenually installed lights there in Turn 4 closer to trackside where it was suppose to be easier to see, but in all the times I've driven Infineon since not once have I've ever seen them on. Not even during full course yellow.

Not having proper visual line-of-sight through a lot of corners is one of the problems Infineon has. Corners without proper line of sight include turn 1, turn 2, turn 3a, turn 4, the hump between 5 and 6, turn 6, turn 8, turn 10, turn 12. That's more than half the track. Even pit lane has a blind corner right in the middle of it! When they narrowed the front straight and took the road course off the dragstrip I said then that that was an accident waiting to happen. I didn't need a crystal ball for that. And even after the big wipeout a couple of years ago it's still an accident waiting to happen. Just give it time.

I have to be honest, part of the attraction of racing at Infineon for me was the fact that it was so dangerous. Same reason why I love Pacific Raceways so much. Maybe I'm twisted. Dunno. I don't try to self-analysis that deep.

Maybe Tom D. is right and the workers could use a little more training. But whether or not that would have avoided an incident like this who could say? Chances are there were multiple factors involved and more than half of what contributed to this was the conditions at the track itself.

[budawe]

Before this turns into a flaming inferno, let me say that no one treats their workers better than the drivers and leadership of SF region. We've had reimbursement programs, gas cards, paid memberships and fantastic meals for our greatly appreciated workers years before it became common place around the country. From my perspective, Tom is just one of many drivers that have supported this philosophy. We have plenty of experienced workers. The problem is having adequate workers to staff the turns. Most of our workers, like everyone else in SCCA, are not exactly teenagers and their staffing choices reflect that. I'd like to see workers rotate more often, but like any volunteer situation, we can't make folks work where we want them. We may be approaching the point where compensated turn workers are going to be a solution. But the reality of today is what it is, and Tom's analysis is shared by others.

[Tom Duncan]

I have some further suggestions for improvement of the safety standards in our region.

[FONT=Arial]Firstly, in addition to a single station showing a waving yellow, add a standing yellow before and after as standard procedure. This would reduce the urge to 'race to the flag' (meaning in this case the waving yellow where the accident is likely to be closest to) and to race out of the flag in an attempt to take advantage of the guy in front slowing for the double yellow. If drivers knew there will always be a standing yellow before and after the waving yellow it might reduce the urge to race through a dangerous area. This was suggested to me by Neil Porter of Porter Racing. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Secondly we need more vigilance on the part of the stewards regarding cars spewing oil (or other fluids). The Vee with the broken valve cover was spewing smoke from under the hood (clearly not coming from the exhaust) and should have been black flagged, as any car so doing should be. If it's not coming from the exhaust its pouring all over the engine and onto the track, even if there is no apparent oil trail on the track. Same thing with a FC at a recent Thunderhill regional. Smoke and oil was pouring off the car the whole race, and again not from the exhaust.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]Thirdly, have a roving steward assigned to the pit wall. This way, when the drivers are reporting a car spewing fluids or parts to their crew via radio the information can get to the stewards for action. Another example would be a rain race with too much standing water. Only the drivers can tell for sure if the track is driveable or not. Seems like just about everyone has radios now, let's take advantage of it.[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Fourth, specific to Infineon, we need the flag station at turn 10 changed. At the very least we need to paint a large solid black square around it or some such to allow the eye/brain to acquire it without hunting for it, as we do now. Even better would be lights such as they have in turn 3. The lights worked very well for me, you don't have to concentrate on a single point (which takes a bit of concentration away from making the corner). I saw the lights in action at turn 3 for the first time in the Saturday race and I felt an immediate sense of relief that I got the message without having to compromise the attention to driving the car into and over the blind turn 3a.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Comments welcome. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Tom Duncan [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]NOTE: To clarify, in regards Tom Copeland's reference to my interest in having better trained flaggers, please note my comments were relating to the turn 4 incident in the Saturday race, not the Sunday race incident in turn 10. It is an absolute certainty on my part that the flaggers in turn 4 had no idea what they were doing. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Also, I did not participate in the Sunday race as my car was damaged from the Saturday race, nor did I could see turn 10 from my observation point on Sunday. I don't know if sub-standard flagging was a factor in the turn 10 incident. Tom[/FONT]

[Steve Demeter]

Mr. Duncan,

What I have done to help the situation, personally:
1. At the Saturday nite party, I talk to EVERY person there who is a worker, even stewards, and sincerely thank them for being there so drivers get to play.
2. I have donated numerous worker prizes including a K&N filter of the winners choice and had it delivered to their house.
3. I have provided sponsorship anonymously (sp) out of pocket for worker lunched that my region puts on.
4. I have on more than one occasion helped to serve said lunches.
5. I always treat workers with respect and dignity, even when we disagree.
7. Any perceived shortcomings are reported politely and with suggestions to correct the situation to the appropriate steward.

and
8. I quite often work helping registration get set up Friday nites instead of milling around complaining about how long it is taking to get opened.

[teamwisconsin]

This sounds like a group with a serious aversion to risk.... Enjoy it while you can, as all your complaints will ruin this turn at some point.

If your are concerned about racing at a SFR event at Sears Point, maybe it is time for a new hobby.

Brian, kudos man. Kudos.

[Offcamber1]

Mr. Duncan,

What I have done to help the situation, personally:
1. At the Saturday nite party, I talk to EVERY person there who is a worker, even stewards, and sincerely thank them for being there so drivers get to play.
2. I have donated numerous worker prizes including a K&N filter of the winners choice and had it delivered to their house.
3. I have provided sponsorship anonymously (sp) out of pocket for worker lunched that my region puts on.
4. I have on more than one occasion helped to serve said lunches.
5. I always treat workers with respect and dignity, even when we disagree.
7. Any perceived shortcomings are reported politely and with suggestions to correct the situation to the appropriate steward.

and
8. I quite often work helping registration get set up Friday nites instead of milling around complaining about how long it is taking to get opened.

Steve,

In my opinion, corner workers should all have red neck ties since like Rodney Dangerfield, "They get no respect." They have the worst job at the track, generally with little or no protection from the elements or out of control race cars, and yet in many ways have the greatest responsibility.

I had a discussion about the shortage of corner workers early this year with an experienced event chief steward. My suggestion was to require drivers to work one event for every four that they drive in. The CS just rolled his eyes and said, "Then we'd have to properly train them all and get them to pay attention," and thought they might be better off without them. I believe his concern was to ensure that the corner stations were manned by workers that REALLY WANTED to be there, not someone who was merely fulfilling some requirements for competing.

Just one final comment: I believe the only proper forum for raising any constructive criticism of event workers is one on one with the Chief Steward at the event, as soon after the incident as possible so they have the opportunity to address the situation...if needed. I'm curious if anyone did that at Infineon?

(OK, two comments) As far as criticizing the track itself, if you don't like it or feel it is unsafe, don't go back. I know plenty of drivers who won't go to Gateway or IRP (the latter was maintained by the Indy Region volunteers) when it was still used as they thought they were car busters and overtly dangerous. That's their choice; personally I like both tracks and find them challenging. I hope a racer buys and reopens Gateway and somehow events can resume at IRP someday.

YMMV

Kip Hollowell
(my full name)

[924RACR]

What Kip said... I'm shocked to see how many drivers posting here have some fundamental, serious misunderstandings about how flagging works. It's pretty scary. Maybe I have a leg up, having flagged for a year before hopping behind the wheel... but it seems like more drivers could stand to spend a day or two out on a corner learning how races are run.

But it cannot be a forced assignment. Corner workers do not want to be wasting time and attention babysitting a bunch of spoiled brats who are forced to go sit on a corner as punishment. They will be a liability and a distraction.

OK, so I'm being a bit over the top there... but I think everyone should be able to see where I'm coming from.

Wanna do your part? Other than recruiting flaggers yourselves - remember, it's the second-best seat in the house! - go out to a corner and spend some time, the more, the better. No, it won't replace driving - but you'll learn a whole lot more about how racing works, and that knowledge WILL help you while behind the wheel...

Oh, yeah, and don't forget the for the workers at the end of the day! Helps with the the next time...

[Dennis Hand]

If you look at the supplemental regulations for the event and find the chief of flagging and/or communications, your issues should be brought to them, personally as well as the chief steward. If they are unreceptive, try the divisional administrator of flagging & communications and the executive steward. Dragging people through the mud on a public forum for their mistakes, even under the facade of a general lack of training/staffing still points a nasty finger at the people who made the mistake. People who, if they're your typical flagging stock, are probably kicking themselves still for making a mistake.

We're not here for giveaways, gas cards, free beer, elbow-rubs with celebrities or unnecessary sunshine blown up our collective rear ends, not that any of these such things are unappreciated. We're here to provide the safest possible experience and facilitate a sport we all love. When we fail to meet that goal, and we all have at some point, it hurts.

Providing lunches is great, donating beer to the volunteers is wonderful and we love you for it. But you know what drivers can do to make us really happy? Know what flags mean (and how they are employed) and heed the messages. One of the greatest feelings as a turn marshal is putting out a blue flag for a car about to be lapped and seeing the driver give a point to the passing car. Another good feeling is putting out a stationary yellow flag and watching the cars back off and fall in line to pass an incident safely. Another is getting a hand signal from a driver regarding a situation that (s)he thinks we don't know about. We're pretty good with sign language, so give it a shot.

Basically, we do better when we can see some kind of feedback that what we're doing is actually making a difference. Without the feedback, we don't know we've done something right. We know when we did something wrong, when cars spin off repeatedly before we notice fluid on the track. We know we did something wrong when a backmarker contacts a lapping leader when a blue flag was withheld. We feel utterly useless when backmarkers that were blue-flagged cut off a passing car, when cars spin in a yellow-flag zone in the absence of some fluid spillage, when cars crash into parked emergency vehicles...repeatedly, or when we get chased out of a gravel trap by an uncontrolled car while trying to rescue a beached driver. When you're made to feel useless, you get apathetic and either keep showing up to go through the motions, or find something else to do on your weekends.

I've tried avoid this thread, as I saw where this would eventually go. Forgive my rant, but the vitriol reached a point where it seemed necessary to communicate from the other side.

[Steve Demeter]

Dennis,

Thank you for all that you do as a flagger for us drivers.

Your points are well made and should be required reading for every driver in SCCA>

[TimH]

I've tried avoid this thread, as I saw where this would eventually go. Forgive my rant, but the vitriol reached a point where it seemed necessary to communicate from the other side.

Well, thank you for speaking up.

And of course for working..