SCCA Restrictor increased

[DanW]

The only data necessary has been available from the start - it's called an engine dynamometer - a little piece of equipment used by engine builders to see how much power their engine puts out.

From that, they already know what the Honda HP is with different restrictors relative to the best Kents (as well as the rest of the lesser Kents).

Why in gods name everyone thinks that something else is necessary is unbelievable.

All the rest of the arguments have been second order minutiae. There is little or no effect and within the measurement tolerance of the dyno. Its just a lot of noise in front of the CRB and the Board.

No dog in this hunt. I have a home built Kent behind me.

[Daryl DeArman]

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[Daryl DeArman]

Why in gods name everyone thinks that something else is necessary is unbelievable.

It's easy when the facts don't support your argument.

[sracing]

The only data necessary has been available from the start - it's called an engine dynamometer - a little piece of equipment used by engine builders to see how much power their engine puts out.

In itself, that statement is correct. However, all I have seen or heard of are some normal dyno runs with a brake dyno and no throttle control. That is NOT nearly enough to achieve parity.

To compare different type engines with any real accuracy. Step runs have to be made (steady state HP at multiple RPM points), runs at multiple acceleration rates (300rpm sec, 200 rpm/sec etc), has anyone seen numbers like VE, BSFC etc. and at what RPM ? Also an inertial run on a chassis dyno with the same data would be valuable..

A dyno HP/Torque graph is fine when comparing two similar engines. But mean nothing when comparing greatly dissimilar engines.

Maybe this stuff is around and someone has analyzed it, but I have never seen it, nor have I heard anyone mention it.

When engines vary in design as much as these, you will NEVER achieve complete parity. One or the other will do better/worse in certain situations and environments.

However some of the above data, will allow a good dyno op / builder to determine better parity and even indicate the potential of the Fit.

[marshall9]

[quote=Daryl DeArman;300807]I think the difference is that one (marshall9) is comparing the value of any given car relative to the other cars in its' class. The other (Ben Beasley) is comparing the value of cars in the class relative to other classes.

Exactly what I was trying to convey. I am of the opinion that a properly prepared DB6/1 is of the same , if not more value, than a Piper 20 years newer. I just don't want to see a Kent DB1/Crossle 32 worth more than a 2008 VD with Honda power, solely because of Runoffs capability, hence my parity comment regarding engines. From a selfish standpoint, it would be cool to own my EuroSwift at those high end prices, because it has recent Ivey with all the new goodies, including the unobtainable crankshaft....

Or, buy a 20K FB backmarker, that laps ten seconds quicker than a front running FF and have some fun. Before you take that comment at face value, consider this. Decent 98 or newer Van Diemen roller, 15K plus. Convert to FB, after selling off FC parts, 5 to 10 K. So now we are at 30 K. One year old Stohr/Phoenix, etc...35K...

A VERY nice SuperVee can be had in those dollar ranges, as well.

I recently saw an 008 Swift Atlantic, represented as track ready, sub 30K. That would be fun in VARA, although way more expensive to run than FF.

Yes, I know that an SCCA Runoffs winning Atlantic can't be campaigned for FF money, but bang for the buck is a relative term.

As a fencesitter, that loves his current FF, and have been considering switching to Honda power to legnthen the times between rebuilds, I am forced to question the costs of doing so, at the expense of competetiveness , that's all.


Not to mention the fact that the Honda conversion could be worthwhile, if done myself, or even if I paid someone to do it, if it promised increasing results based on my seat time/learing curve, and level of preparation, meanwhile saving me rebuild money that could be used to track the beast more often, which is why I race to begin with.

[Steve Bamford]

I haven't seen enough disapproving people for the board not to approve an increase in restrictor size, will it happen any time soon? Or are we going to continue to see Honda owners keep there cars at home and save them for F16CS weekends with limited car counts at club racing events? I really hope this isn't another year or so plus event as really it is just a matter of time but why continue to wait?

[marshall9]

Good point.

I am going to do some local testing and hopefully make the Pacific1600 race in Las Vegas, November, with Kent Power. Les runs a good series out here.

[hpdinsider]

Hello FF Racers,

Honda Performance Development (HPD) wanted to let all of you know that the new 29.5 mm, SCCA approved, restrictor is now available. Please feel free to contact us (grmsadmin@hra.com/ 661-702-7777) at your convenience in order to ensure you receive a new restrictor.HPD will also be contacting its FF customers in order to guarantee that restrictors are received in a timely manner.

Thank you for your continued support and good luck on the track.

[bigbaran23]

I've read through some of the above forums and agree the Honda engine is deffinately a breakthrough for those looking for something new in the quest for speed and technologie. I've experienced the excitement of participating in the F1600 Series weekend at Mid-Ohio and have stood at the finishing line watching 32 (thirty-two) Formula F drivers cross the finish line. The four front runners were powered by the new Formula F Honda Fit engine. What realy gave me the thrill was watching two Van Deimen drivers pair-up at the finish line, boasting how they could not believe the performance of the Honda. There were a number of Swift DB-6's and DB-1's in the mix all paired with the Honda. One of the driver's in a Swift DB-6 shared that it is so well designed that a Swift chassis combined with the Honda Fit Engine conversion kit was Peridice... Well, this is good enough for me... Life is too short so lets go people...

[KevinFirlein]

page 7 of the latest fastrack should be of interest. It seems a 30.5 restrictor was discussed by the BoD but it looks like it didn't pass since it didn't come from the CRB.

[RussMcB]

To help with gearing choices, what is generally considered the "bog" RPM for Hondas?

IOW, what is the lowest RPM you'd want to see on track?

Does the restrictor size affect this low RPM point?

Thanks.

[sracing]

IOW, what is the lowest RPM you'd want to see on track?

Does the restrictor size affect this low RPM point?

It isn't quite that simple. Based upion the graphs posted on the Fit, you would optimally want to be slightly over 6100 RPM all the time. Anytime you are above or below that point you are not producing peak HP. The key is to have your gear set such that when you shift from 3nd to 4th (eg) you use the max of the HP under the curve.

Lets say that when you shift from 3rd to 4th that you drop 1000 RPM. That means you would want those two points to be at ~5650 and 6650.

Based upon the dyno chart that was posted here, I would not want to be below 5500. However I doubt that this engine has a "bog" point until well below 4000.

Yes, restrictor size affects the pumping loses and HP curves. The smaller the restrictor, the lower RPM peak torque and HP will be achieved. You would have to see a dyno graph of the engine (optimally a chassis (dyno) to be precise.

BTW, We are fitting up our engine dyno for the Fit, but I would love to get one on the chassis dyno now. (We have lots of Ford data) If anyone would like a free chassis dyno test (HP, Torque, RPM, A/F ratios etc.) call us. We will do the testing for free just so we can have the data (and you will be given plots also). Monday thru Saturday in Lexington KY.

859-252-2496

We are located in Lex

[PiperFF]

[COLOR="Red"]For all the opinion's that the 29.5 plate is still a disadvantage at long track like Road America I have some news for all..

Raced My Honda Piper this weekend at Road America against a number of strong Kent Motors. With my Honda power the pulling power was pretty close. On the long straights I was able to draft competitive with the best Kents consistently through 2 Qual. and 2 races..
In the 10 events I have run with the adjustments made by the SCCA and HPD..I am finding this progression that has evolved to a point of the original proposal. To make the Fit close to a top National Kent..In my opinion one more step to a 30mm is where we need to be..

Also my opinion is the Comp Board was correct in refusing the 30.5 Plate.If I would have had the proposed 30.5 at RA this past weekend my competitors would not be pleased.

Also you guys who are sitting on your conversions need to get the cars out and play..These motors are in the game....

I would also as has been said by many before me, Set up...Set..up
John Vlasis
Piper DF-2H

[bigbaran23]

Are you sure your gearing was the same?

[problemchild]

Did you win? What position did you place? What was your best lap time?

[RussMcB]

Too many variables to draw a conclusion that precise (.5mm).

[Ben Beasley]

Where you anywhere close to lap record time? Who where you racing against? Have they ever won a National? Are they Run-Off or F1600 series front runners?

[reidhazelton]

Jon is referring to me. I don't want to get involved in the rhetoric and hysteria that this whole Honda/Ford thing has turned into. Frankly, I kinda makes me disgusted with the deal. I am tired of everyone bitching and thinking they know exactly what is right and wrong. If you have a Honda for SCCA, race the damn thing. No one had a gun to your head to convert, it was your choice to change to an engine that was suppose to be brought in as never being equal to a top, top kent (well that's out the window). So stop bitching and if I hear "I am not running my car until SCCA give me a better restrictor" I will kick you in the nuts. As it sits now, I would much rather have a Honda than a Ford, even with the 29.5. After this whole mess I am really considering leaving the class because I can't afford to convert, and can afford to get a new car. Compounding that this has made mine comparatively worthless.

Bottom line is they will never be equal everywhere. What is done is done and now we have two different engines to mess with. I think it should be one engine, either one - I don't care anymore. I see the issue (with nationals) is that now that there are two engines, and once the runoffs moves around again the engine of choice will change. If the perception that the Ford is better at Road America then that is what you need to win. If the perception the Honda is better at (insert next Runoffs track here) then you need a Honda. So either you have two chassis, sell yours and get a different one, or have it so you can do an engine swap every 3 years. When it is super hot, the Honda does not go down on power like the Kent does. Figure that into the equation...Runoffs in Texas...take a Honda. Runoffs in Wisconsin...take a Kent.

Back to Jon's topic. I got next to him on the front straight three times. (Disclaimer: if ANYONE flames me or says I am biased I will seriously freak out) I do come off the corner much faster (sorry Jon, no dis intended. Just laying out the facts.) and I intentionally wanted to get next to Jon to see (for grins and my own education) how the Honda/Ford thing was. I'd come off the corner at the bottom of the hill, catch up, lift to get next to him and then floored it. Once I did it with a little bit of a lead, then him with a little lead, and then as close to equal as I could. Each time we were just about as equal as equal can get. Of the three times neither of us was more than a nose ahead of the other. He was behind me in the draft once coming out of T14 and by the time we got half way down the straight he blew my doors off. So, in that test they are pretty dang close.

I am really, really not looking for an argument. This is just my experience in an unbiased test. Jon is one of the most open guys who has true equality in mind. I respect the guy a ton for that. Don't attack him because he is adding data to the mix. The only reason I am (like I said, I don't really give a crap about this anymore. Racing is suppose to be enjoyable and all this anger and rhetoric is making it enjoyable) is to back Jon up so he doesn't get hung.

I know for a fact the Pro restrictor is way, way to huge for RA. I can't and won't say how, but I just do.

Flame a way!

-Reid "Angry guy coming off a bad test day with a pile of work on his desk Monday morning and the frickin' coffee maker **** its pants and now my boss is on my back because he is going though caffeine withdrawals" Hazelton

[reidhazelton]

Too many variables to draw a conclusion that precise (.5mm).

I agree very much. All I am saying is that on that day, on that track, with these cars, in that environment, they were very close. But Russ, you are dead on. Which is why all of this is so difficult.

[Tim FF19]

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[Steve Bamford]

I was looking for results & couldn't find them either. Please let us know if anyone can post them with lap times.

Honda or Ford, the driver will always makes the biggest difference.

[Bill Bonow]

Most pulled off so finish position means nothing. Here are fast laps (in order) for the races on Saturday and Sunday.

Saturday:

Reid Hazelton VD Ford 2:28.122
Dan Murphy VD Honda 2:30.693
John Vlassis Piper Honda 2:33.301
Allen Weatcroft VD Ford 2:34.006
John Luxon Piper Ford 2:34.799
Alan Murray Swift Ford 2:35.768
Etan Macky Euro Swift Ford 2:37.119

Sunday:

Reid Hazelton VD Ford 2:25.970
Jim Roberts Swift Ford 2:27.347
John Vlassis Piper Honda 2:31.369
Allen Weatcroft VD Ford 2:31.536
Dan Murphy VD Honda 2:31.609
Etan Macky Euro Swift Ford 2:37.776
Alan Murray Swift Ford 2:38.098
John Luxon Piper Ford 2:39.479

[Daryl DeArman]

5 seconds a lap isn't a .5mm restrictor increase or a 1.0 mm restrictor increase....it's the sum of a bunch of things....and exactly why lap times shouldn't be a consideration.

[Bill Bonow]

Daryl,

Someone asked, I posted.

FST ran in the same race group. For a track condition reference (nothing more or less), quick time in FST was .5 sec over (Saturday) and .2 under (Sunday) the 5 year old FST track record. Point being the track was in condition to go fast.

[Daryl DeArman]

Daryl,

Someone asked, I posted.

Understood, and I wasn't meaning to blast you. Even if their fast laps were within a .1 second doesn't mean the motors are close. It means the sum of the enitre packages are close.

[Matt King]

There are a lot of variables in this comparison, but anyone who is satisfied that a drag race out of the final corner down a long straight is sufficient to compare engine performance should have no problem accepting that engine dyno data is at least as accurate an indicator--probably even moreso as it removes car-to-car aero differences from the equation.

[reidhazelton]

There are a lot of variables in this comparison, but anyone who is satisfied that a drag race out of the final corner down a long straight is sufficient to compare engine performance should have no problem accepting that engine dyno data is at least as accurate an indicator--probably even moreso as it removes car-to-car aero differences from the equation.

Bingo. If you are talking top hp numbers. But, then those mean little in real world. No one will argue the Honda honks off the corner like a freight train compared to the Ford.

My corner speeds were dog $#!+ slow, I was trying new stuff on year old tires. Total lap time is not what I am talking about. Total lap time adds way to many variables.

Just my two cents in a straight out power drag race.

[reidhazelton]

5 seconds a lap isn't a .5mm restrictor increase or a 1.0 mm restrictor increase....it's the sum of a bunch of things....and exactly why lap times shouldn't be a consideration.

Correct. Thank you Daryl.

[Steve Bamford]

Based on aero alone the piper should be faster in a straight line with similar power compared to Reid's VD. Sorry Reid but our older VD's end up having to push a good amount of air.

But as I said before the driver makes the biggest difference. There is no denying Reid is simply very fast.

As for remaining competitive in your older car, Reid you have proven this year & last year that someone without a big budget can continue to do well.

[reidhazelton]

Based on aero alone the piper should be faster in a straight line with similar power compared to Reid's VD. Sorry Reid but our older VD's end up having to push a good amount of air.

But as I said before the driver makes the biggest difference. There is no denying Reid is simple very fast.

As for remaining competitive in your older car, Reid you have proven this year & last year that someone without a big budget can continue to do well.

Thank you very much Steve. I really appreciate that.

You are also correct that Jon's car has better aero than mine. In doing this, i was just curious to see what happened and was pretty surprised at the result. I expected to leave him in the dust by mid straight. Not so.

[problemchild]

Don't attack him because he is adding data to the mix.

People were questioning anecdotal feedback by looking for data to support the conclusions reached. Had the anecdote reported that the kent pulled away by 12 carlengthes, I am sure that their would have been just as many people asking for data ..... just a different group of "attackers"

[reidhazelton]

People were questioning anecdotal feedback by looking for data to support the conclusions reached. Had the anecdote reported that the kent pulled away by 12 carlengthes, I am sure that their would have been just as many people asking for data ..... just a different group of "attackers"

True, that was for either side. Jon has been very open and I feel 100% honest in his expressed views. I just didn't want him getting the wrath of apexspeed. That and he fed me and my Dad a nice spontaneous cheese and crackers spread Saturday night!

[Steve Bamford]

Is their data for what each .5mm of restrictor size equates to in hp difference? Maybe the information isn't available that way but we all seem to be comparing & arguing today over posts made by a few drivers & the biggest variable in that scenario is the drivers themselves. This is becoming a pointless discussion using this info unfortunately.

No offense to Reid, Jon or anyone but if we are talking about engines alone we can really only look at dyno info. We didn't even look at their gearing let alone aero differences as mentioned above. From my understanding many Honda guys use different gears then the Ford guys do at the same tracks. Mid Ohio was a good example of that as I ran both a Ford & Honda with different gearing set ups. I can't speak for Reid or Jon so maybe it was the same gearing, maybe it wasn't.

[ric baribeault]

i don't know why after all this time we go back to the irrelevant variables. it's like having a difference of opinion with your wife, where you point out a fact that negates her arguement, she acknowlwedges it, and 5 minutes later she's arguing the same point in the same manner again. the motors are supposed to be "nearly" comparable. not drivers, cars. setups, lap times, etc.... to my knowledge the only place this can be accurately acheived is on a dyno. that's been done. a decision was made in the pro series to run both motors as close to equivalent as possible. dyno info indicated a 31 restrictor should be utilized to acheive this. looking at series results, it would be nearly impossible to argue that equivalency has not been acheived. so my question would be "how close to "nearly comparable" is the current scca restrictor to a 31. i've tested several of them from 27-31. i know where that stands with me. also, amazingly, or maybe not, you don't hear much adversity, if any, on this issue in the paddock in the f1600 series.

Reid...some good points and i imagine someday 1600 will be like zetec is now. sorry you had a bad day, but you got to drive . see you at LRP...with a car?

Steve, last dyno info i saw indicated approx 1.5hp per .5mm change

[Dennis Valet]

Come to a F1600 pro series race and then formulate your opinion about restrictor sizes! Everything else is just guesswork and speculation

[ric baribeault]

Dennis, as always the succinct and eloquent elocutionist.

Len and Brendan.....what he said

[LenFC11]

watch it or i wont tourque your wheels

[ric baribeault]

like that never happened before.

ric: "some idiot lost a wheel."
len: ....crackle, crackle, crackle......
ric: M@/&#$F*<$!....."nevermind"

[reidhazelton]

see you at LRP...with a car?

I wish. I tired pretty hard to get into the series in the beginning of the year but things didn't work out. My personal racing budget would cover the tow and entry fees and that is as far as I could go. So, SCCA I stay. Much rather be with you guys but for this year I have to stay close to home.

Best of luck to you and Len, it was great to meet you guys at VIR.

RH

[ric baribeault]

Len and I are hoping to get back to your neck of the woods. It's hard to believe that in 31 years, of off and on OW, the 40th was my first time there. I absolutely loved the track. The event was amazing too, especially considering the previously mentioned wheel incident. Kind of interesting to hit the brakes going into 1 and watch your own wheel beat you into the corner. Maybe we'll see you next year. It's always great to increase the talent pool in the series