Mazda Road to Indy to Feature Standing Starts

[ASRF1000]

Gee, I wonder where this is coming from......

Topic: Mazda Road to Indy to Feature Standing Starts
Category: Rumor
Status: Unlikely
Date: July 28, 2011

INSIDER: Word has been spreading that all three Mazda Road to Indy series (Indy Lights, Star Mazda Championship, USF2000 National Championship) will feature standing starts on road courses and street circuits in 2012. The reasoning behind the potential move would be to further unite the three driver development series with regards to race procedures, as Star Mazda currently uses the Formula One style starting method, as well as add excitement to the races. It is unsure if the teams and drivers are in favor of the potential change, and if the Indy Lights and USF2000 cars are equipped to deal with the new procedure.

(copied from eformulacarnews.com)

[NPalacioM3]

A 2L car gearbox being able to withstand that type of torture? I think not. I do not see that trickling down to F2000. Additionally, what is the point really if Indy Car themselves do not use standing starts?

[Will Velkoff]

Exactly, if Indycar isn't using standing starts, the why would the three series on the so called "Road to Indy" use them?

Makes zero sense to me.

[Fred Michael]

A 2litre gearbox can easily withstand that sort of "torture". They do it in Europe and most of the rest of the world all the time.
I suspect Indycar will be doing standind starts on road and street courses in the future. Just a hunch on my part.

My personal opinion is that all sprint races on road and street courses should be standing starts. Much more fair than rolling starts.

[Christopher Crowe]

The most sincere form of flattery, and etc.

Keep the great ideas coming!

Chris Crowe

[NPalacioM3]

A 2litre gearbox can easily withstand that sort of "torture". They do it in Europe and most of the rest of the world all the time.

Just because they do it all the time doesn't mean that they are not replacing parts all the time as well. This topic has been brought up before on here in the past and the concensus I recall is that you would see lots of damaged parts as a result. In addition to gearbox parts you will put a tremendous amount of strain on CV's, halfshafts, etc.

[ASRF1000]

I'm not all that familiar with the strength of the F2000 h-pattern gearbox, but I do know that Formula ford, and others utilize standing starts in Europe day in and day out and there isn't a breakage problem. Formula 1000 (Formula Jedi / Honda in UK) have been doing standing starts for 9 years now and there is not an issue at all with driveline failure.

Standing starts are not a wind it up and dump it mentality (like in drag racing), but rather a finesse exercise with just enough revs not to spin the tires attitude.

I would think the Indy Lights cars would have more of an issue with driveline failure from the torque. That is why we always had our drivers leave the pits without spinning the tires.

[RussMcB]

Are the European starts with slicks or treaded tires (or both)?

[Fred Michael]

Are the European starts with slicks or treaded tires (or both)?

Both. Mk series, Ld200,Staffs. No problem. Do it right and there is very little stress on the gearbox or half shafts.

Lights cars would be the possible weak link in the ladder with regards to standing starts but in reality it just changes the maintenence and parts lifing routines for them.

[Dan Andersen]

Interesting, but completely untrue. There has been no discussion whatsoever regarding standing starts since it was raised by me at a meeting with USF2000 teams more than a year ago. It has not been mentioned by Indycar, nor by any of our series sponsor/partners, nor have I heard anything about it being instituted in Indy Lights. At some point in time the issue may be raised, but it would not occur in 2012, as I prefer to provide long lead notice to our teams on any significant changes.
As to whether it would work, the issue isn't strength of the box, but dealing with the fact that the current box is a four speed, and standing starts would likely result in only three usable gears for racing.
This rumor is not true.

[HazelNut]

the current box is a four speed, and standing starts would likely result in only three usable gears for racing.

Holy crap! For once we're in total agreement.

[Mike B]

Did anybody read the original post?

Topic: Mazda Road to Indy to Feature Standing Starts
Category: Rumor
Status: Unlikely
Date: July 28, 2011

INSIDER: Word has been spreading that all three Mazda Road to Indy series (Indy Lights, Star Mazda Championship, USF2000 National Championship) will feature standing starts on road courses and street circuits in 2012. The reasoning behind the potential move would be to further unite the three driver development series with regards to race procedures, as Star Mazda currently uses the Formula One style starting method, as well as add excitement to the races. It is unsure if the teams and drivers are in favor of the potential change, and if the Indy Lights and USF2000 cars are equipped to deal with the new procedure.

[ghickman]

Did anybody read the original post?

Thanks for pointing that out Mike.....I thought I was the only one that had read "UNLIKELY".

We will show them next season how the standing starts work with the F1000 PRO SERIES.

[ASRF1000]

The original post was copied from eformulacarnews.com. I found it interesting and I thought many of you would as well.

Thank you Dan for your clarification on the rumor.

[Bob Wright]

Standing starts were used in the Export A Series in Canada (LD200, Staffs and MK9 boxes) with no apparent issues - most teams geared the cars for the track, not the standing start. I think its a more fair and maybe safer form of starting a race.

F2KCS offered the choice to the participants years ago and got an overwhelming rejection of the idea.

[NPalacioM3]

F2KCS offered the choice to the participants years ago and got an overwhelming rejection of the idea.

If there is in fact no issues with reliability of parts with this idea as well as it being safer, why would people reject it then?

[TimW]

Why is it safer? I can think of several scenarios that makes it less safe, but only one minor point of it being safer (approach turn 1 at lower speed).

[ASRF1000]

If there is in fact no issues with reliability of parts with this idea as well as it being safer, why would people reject it then?

Most likely just a fear of the unknown. If rolling starts are working for them, there's probably no reason to change.

[ASRF1000]

Why is it safer? I can think of several scenarios that makes it less safe, but only one minor point of it being safer (approach turn 1 at lower speed).

Safety

1. Lower speeds going into Turn 1.

2. Not bunched up at a high rate of speed at the start.

3. Evenly spaced out.

Performance

1. Everyone starts at the designated area.

2. No one has an advantage by having a run on the start.

3. No chance to be held back by a car in front of you making a gap.

[ASRF1000]

Draw backs:

1. someone stalling at the start.

This even happens in F1, GP2, etc, sometimes. But, the cars are quite spaced out and it's up to the driver behind to be conscience of the car ahead of them. It's still safer that travelling at a high rate of speed into a corner nose to tale and having someone spin in front of you.

[HazelNut]

Draw backs:

1. someone stalling at the start.

I've done precisely one standing start in my life. It was in my shifter kart. First (and only) time I raced the thing. Qualed mid pack but chose to start dead last because I'd never done standing start before. Sure enough someone mid pack stalled. Can you say cluster f*ck? Nobody got into him but there were certainly a few close calls.

[ASRF1000]

I've done precisely one standing start in my life. It was in my shifter kart. First (and only) time I raced the thing. Qualed mid pack but chose to start dead last because I'd never done standing start before. Sure enough someone mid pack stalled. Can you say cluster f*ck? Nobody got into him but there were certainly a few close calls.

Can you imagine if that start was a rolling start and the same guy spun in turn one with everyone travelling at a high rate of speed? Do you think everyone would have avoided him then?

There's a plus and minus from either angle. Both type of starts are good from each one's perspective. There's no right or wrong. Just different concepts.

[TimW]

I've done two standing starts at Tremblant, which I realize is not a careers worth of experience, but I was behind a stalled car and frankly I pulled to the center the track to get around and simply had to hope no one was there. There was no time to look and no space to go between the car and the inside wall.

I've always found that rolling starts when the starter has the gumption to wave off when the field is not formed well are actually non-events. Yes, you hit turn 1 faster than a standing start but substantially slower than when getting the full run out of the last corner. Well executed rolling starts have always seemed to be in slow motion to me even when there are bonehead moves occurring in turn 1.

But, as a spectator the standing starts are much more interesting to watch. I would argue all IRL races should restart from all FCY with standing starts....makes more of a show of the whole double file restarts and no blocking...wouldn't that be worth starting a parts business for those knuckleheads?

Tim

[HazelNut]

Can you imagine if that start was a rolling start and the same guy spun in turn one with everyone travelling at a high rate of speed? Do you think everyone would have avoided him then?

There's a plus and minus from either angle. Both type of starts are good from each one's perspective. There's no right or wrong. Just different concepts.

I have done quite a few rolling starts (prolly 100-150ish) and never once being involved in a turn 1 incident that took me out of a race (i spun once and was avoided by the field, gone around a bunch of spinners, and actually went 4+ wide at the glen twice; both times someone got into my wheel, once they went airborne and came down and avoided hitting anything, and once I was the pilot, went airborne, landed, avoided hitting anything and kept going. So yeah even with all the crap I've never not made it to turn 2 after a start because of crash damage.

I tend to think it comes down to drivers respecting other drivers on rolling starts. So long as nobody tries to win the race in t1 and at least gives just a hair (car width + 1MM, or even a little gentle wheel banging, so long as it's sidewalls to sidewalls and nobody has anything more than skuff marks) you can survive rolling starts pretty well. However avoiding a stopped car you can't see until it's too late is a whole different story.

That said, if that's how we raced, we'd adapt and figure out how to survive those as well.

[ASRF1000]

I have done quite a few rolling starts (prolly 100-150ish) and never once being involved in a turn 1 incident that took me out of a race (i spun once and was avoided by the field, gone around a bunch of spinners, and actually went 4+ wide at the glen twice; both times someone got into my wheel, once they went airborne and came down and avoided hitting anything, and once I was the pilot, went airborne, landed, avoided hitting anything and kept going. So yeah even with all the crap I've never not made it to turn 2 after a start because of crash damage.

I tend to think it comes down to drivers respecting other drivers on rolling starts. So long as nobody tries to win the race in t1 and at least gives just a hair (car width + 1MM, or even a little gentle wheel banging, so long as it's sidewalls to sidewalls and nobody has anything more than skuff marks) you can survive rolling starts pretty well. However avoiding a stopped car you can't see until it's too late is a whole different story.

That said, if that's how we raced, we'd adapt and figure out how to survive those as well.

Hazelnut, you are very fortunate. In 24 years, I myself have never been involved in a turn 1 incident during a rolling start either. However, there are those that have not been so fortunate. Just take a look at Mosport (F2000) last week, most of the Indy Car and Indy Lights races, and several others. Shoot, my driver in Indy Lights was taken out once by another car on a rolling start even before the drop of the green flag.

You are correct, that is does come down to respect for each other and remembering that the race cannot be one in the first turn.

All starts to races have their own set of challenges, for sure. But I don't really think one has more than the other.