Bead seat vs Confor foam
I was going to do a bead seat as I want some protection under my tail bone, I fit fairly snug in the car so the seat would be very thin, after seeing some postings for Confor foam I am wondering if this might be a better option as it recovers from being stepped on.
Opinions would be appreciated
Thom
Back to fenders=SRF
Thom,
Have you considered pouring a bead seat with a backsaver pad or some other material molded in?
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecID=1059
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
Protection?
If you're really looking for protection, I'd add a piece of T-6 aluminum. I've never been able to use a seat in a race car, nor have I liked the idea of nothing protecting the boys other than a single piece of belly pan.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
Larry Oliver
If I had to choose between a bead seat and Confor in a wreck I would choose the beadseat every time. IMHO confor is for situations where the driver does not have the resources to make a proper bead seat. A bead seat will provide support that will make a difference in a substantial crash. The confor will not be of any particular value in a crash. It will simply compress against whatever seat or interior panels are in place. Even though the bottom of the bead seat will be thin (the ones I have seen and used typically are) the surrounding support will still provide much more protection that any piece of confor. Back in the old days I contacted EAR about confor foam and one of the engineers sent me two sheets (4' x 8') of two different densities of confor. I used that material in several seats over the years to get a better fit. It did a nice job of shimming me into the car but as far as crash protectin there is little value. Once I made my first bead seat I never opened the confor box again. Unfortunately I have had two opportunities to test bead seats. I thought back to some of the fiberglass seats I used in the 80's and 90's. Both of these crashes would have broken and caved in the seats without question and very likely broken my back. Both times after the crashes I looked back at the effort and cost of the bead seat and realized that it was one of the cheapest and most effective safety devices in the car. There is no way I would ever race an open wheel car again without one. YMMV
+1Originally Posted by Tim FF19
custom poured bead seat
As someone who just put an FC over twice at around 120 MPH I would highly recommend the bead seat, custom molded to you. In my earlier years I broke my neck because a fiberglass seat broke and my neck hit the frame.
I also give thanks now to a Bell Helmet and SafeQuip belts.
as a bigger guy that just did a bead seat I can say it definitely made the cockpit extra snug. I had to cut alot out of the sides to allow me full motion of the steering wheel plus I feel like I'm too forward and too close to the steering wheel to comfortably turn the wheel. I need to cut away alot more of the seat to make the fit right. But that being said it is way more comfortable on my butt and back and safer.
I've had a total of 4 beadseats made for different models of formula cars. I ended up scrapping one and doing it over because I ended up in the wrong position, too far above the floorpan and too close to the wheel. The one I scrapped was the very first one, after that they came out progressively better each time. It really helps if you do this with a group that has done it before, preferrably many times. Lots of little tricks to get the fit right. The last time I made one I must have gotten in and out of the car 20 times before we had the volume and position of beads the way I wanted. Only then did we add epoxy and made it permenant. FWIW, splitting the seat lengthwise seems to be the easiest way to get it in and out. Plan on an evening to make the seat and another evening to trim / cover. I've seen beadseats made at the track but they always seem to be hurried and the end result shows it but I would much rather have an ugly / crude one than none at all.
A trick to use in getting bead seats right for us big guys is as follows:
Put the bag in the car empty, lined up on the centerline and the bag marked with a sharpie. Then mark the internal edges of the seat back and floor pan.
When you put the beads in and seal the bag, you can then roll the beads around with a piece of PVC pipe to get it pretty close. What you want here is a partial vacuum on the bag (no epoxy yet, just beads) so that they stay in place but can still be moved around. You can make a leaker fitting out of a couple of hose barbs, a tee, and a icemaker valve.
You then pull a hard vacuum on the bag, put it in the car, and get in. Then kill the vacuum. The beads will go "liquid" and you can squirm around to move them some more. Then pull a hard vacuum again and get out. Take a sharpie and mark the contours of the bag and beads. You may have to do this several times if you put too many beads in at first. Taking a digital photo at this point helps too.
Unseal the bag and add the epoxy, knead it in, pull a partial vacuum and work the beads into the approximate places and thickesses using the markings as a guide. Pull a hard vacuum and stuff it in the car. then get in, relax the vac, squirm, pull a hard vac, get out, and smooth everything out, especially pulling the bag creases out of the beads where possible.
I make my own kits using a real slow (12-hour) epoxy, so there's plenty of time to get it right. I also found that if you put a big-ass drum liner garbage bag in the car filled with hot water, and sit it out in the sun, it not only accelerates the process but smooths the seat nicely.
I tried
Made a bead seat for the Argo, wasnt much too it, didnt feel it offered enough protection so I bought some of the BCSI SFI 45.2 foam and built pads from it going to cover it with a 1/2 of firm Confor foam. I fit real snug in the car and the sides of the tub are aluminium spars so it is like sitting in a box.
Now for my Crossle I made a bead seat, going to cover it with some 1.5oz fabric to hold it together so it doesnt have direct contact with the tubes, actually thought about a layer of kevlar but that might be overkill, also put a piece of the BCSI foam on the bottom as pad.
There are a few good articles on why to use the SFI foam over bead seats or to build a hybrid with the foam as the primary protection and the beads for comfort and secondary compression.
Either way I feel better having something to sit on other than the floor pan, thanks for all the suggestions.
Regards
Thom
Thom
Back to fenders=SRF
bead seat
I currently have a fibreglass seat and am looking to make a bead seat
I dont want to sit any higher in the car or any further forward
how thin can the base and the back of a bead seat be?
the fibreglass seat is about 1/4 " thick
can the bead seat be this thin ?
thanks
mal
Mal, How do you fit in the car now?
Are you very tall and can barely fit in w/ the 'glass seat?
The reason I'm asking is you are correct in your thinking that a bead seat needs to be more than 1/4" thick to not only stay together, but to work as designed, ie - to be a "helmet" for your body. The beads deform/crush to absorb impact.
Have you removed the 'glass seat and sat in the car?
Is there anyway you can change things in the car to get you more room, such as moving the pedals?
The bead seat for my RFR F1000 car is a one piece affair that lifts straight out of the car. The back of the seat is probably about 6" thick in the lumbar region, and about 4" at shoulders, and the bottom, at the thinnest point is approx 1.5" thick.
Do what you gotta do to get rid of that 'glass seat - it's not gonna do any favors for ya, mate.
First time bead seat build
Well, my wife and I built a bead seat this weekend for the new FST car. First time I've tried a bead seat. Previosuly I did a 2-part foam seat for the old car.
Some observations:
1) I bought the Medium size kit. In hindsight the small would have been more than adequate and probably easier to deal with.
2) I followed the directions in the kit rather than the procedure spelled out here. In otherwords, rather than place the bag in the car before adding the epoxy. The instuctions tell you to add the epoxy, knead it for 10 minutes, lay the bag out on the ground, sit/lay on it, pull a light vac and then put in the car. Move stuff around, climb in, sqirm around, pull a hard vac and sit in it for 35 minutes.
3) Becasue the medium kit has so many beads I ended up with far too much material in the cockpit and moving it around while in there was a royal PITA.
4) After letting it cure over night, I started pulling it out yesterday. Even though we "cardboarded and taped" over all the nooks and crannys, the excess material still squished into lots of places requiring a fair amount of cutting/trimming just to get it out of the car. Meaning LOTS of beads and chunks all over the garage.
5) The basic seat is now out of the car and I can finish trimming and cleaning it up. Once I've cut away everythig that doesn't look like a seatthen I can put it back in at test fit it - I have a feeling the bottom is too thick and I may need to cut an inch from the very bottom to fit better, but becasue of all the excess material it was hard to gauge initially - will have a better sense of it later tonight I expect.
6) Overall it feels solid, but there are a number of "loose beads" that can be brushed off with not too much effort. Not sure if that's jsut normal or if (a) I didn't get the epoxy distributed well enough, or (b) my vac did'n't have enough uumph to pull a hard enough vacuum on it.
Once I've got all the trimming and fitting done then will know how comfortable (or not) the seat is. I have a feeling I might need to add a little lumbar support which I think I might do with a some 2-part foam to fill in gaps here and there and add support.
I think I'll have a nice seat when it's done, but personally, I found the bead to seat to be much more difficutl to do than the 2-part foam.
Bob Stack, Hartland, WI
CenDiv - Milwaukee region
There was a reason that many offered there experiences here. Much easier to work it out to get the proper amount of beads before adding the epoxy.
"A"---not sure which kit you used but the Penon kit comes with a tinted epoxy so that you know you have it throughly mixed. Loose beads are not a good sign.but there are a number of "loose beads" that can be brushed off with not too much effort. Not sure if that's jsut normal or if (a) I didn't get the epoxy distributed well enough
It is a bit more time consuming, however the goal is to achieve a safe seat.I found the bead to seat to be much more difficutl to do than the 2-part foam.
If you cover the seat with fiberglass (or Kevlar or carbon) after making it, it can be as thin as you want it. My seat is probably only about 1/8" thick at the thinnest point - so it's really just the Kevlar at that point holding it together.
Keep in mind, the WHOLE outside of the seat needs to be supported to be of any help in a crash. or it will just split around the frame tubes. When I hear the comments about cardboard and fabric keeping it from contact with the frame tubes, that implies there is no such support. I paneled the cockpit with Aluminum inside the frame tubes, but a sturdy fibreglass/Kevlar shell would also work.
Glenn's right on the money. The bead seats need to really be about 1.5" thick to do their job.
A couple ways you can try to get this to work but often is a challenge in most cars is to laydown a bit more. Raise your butt up to get that extra depth. But this also pushes your butt forward a bit and in turn requires you to have more room at your feet to push the pedals back.
The other choice is a pourable SFI foam from BSCI. Those can work with MUCH less thickness. They are at least twice the price however. Other pluses that the BSCI pourable foam has is that it's not a single use seat. Where teh beads have used up a lot of their safety properties after a big hit the BSCI stuff has not and therefore can be used over and over again.
glenn
the car is a 75 van diemen formula ford
I fit neatly in the car I am 5'10''
I will try taking the seat out and see how much room I have
I cant move back any further from the steering wheel because of the fuel tank
it is behind my back
also the sides of the car are wider than the chassis so I am unsure as to how
the seat will lift back out of the car
I may be able to cut the sides off and leave them in the car and just lift out
the centre section
more homework needed !!!
lawyerbob
do you have any pics ?
cooleyjb
could you please tell me what pourable SFI foam from BSCI is?
it is not something I am familiar with
thanks
mal
Here is the product information: http://www.rollbarpadding.com/downloads/seat.pdf
I went with their standard material in sheets and formed an insert, cost me about the same as a bead seat but my car also has a contained cockpit which was a tight fit to begin with.
Thom
Back to fenders=SRF
Mal, I'm guessing with the year of your car that lifting a complete, one piece seat straight out the top is not going to be do-able.
Many of the older chassis I have seen have the cockpit opening width as the narrowest part of the chassis width, so obviously not gonna happen as I mentioned.
Yes you can cut the seat into 2 parts but you will want to think about where exactly to cut as I have seen some rather "iffy" seat cut lines in my time.
Think about a rearward impact and how the seat would move/react.
The advice I have seen is to NOT cut the seat directly in half vertically, as this is THE exact spot that needs to be unaltered - the spinal region.
On my last car, a RF99 VD, I cut the seat horizontally, about "mid-butt", so that the top part could be manipulated kinda sideways and come out, and the bottom could do the same, as the cockpit opening width was narrower than the inside floor width.
I did a vertical cut, but pretty much in line with my arm-pit... that leaves the spine supported, and it's easy to get the big piece out once you get the side sliver out.
Mal, I have an RF78, are you talking about the vertical/diagonal frame tubes being wider than the 1"x2" upper frame rail? If so, that can be solved by the Aluminum panels I mentioned, I'll dig up a picture when I get home, but I made the drop vertically from the upper rail, then bend to match the angle of the frame "side" tubes. So the seat should come out in one piece, with a twist to fit thru the forward roll bar braces (as you have to do with the original seat).
I didn't take any yet but will see if I can get a couple tonight or tomorrow night
Bob
Bob Stack, Hartland, WI
CenDiv - Milwaukee region
Vertical split
FWIW, I did a vertical split on my last seat and it passed a severe test with no problem. All of the rivets on the fuel cell cover sheared off but the seat did it's job. Next seat I make will also be vertically split. A rough bead seat is way better than the best fiberglass seat I have ever seen.
YMMV
I can't seem to get a picture to upload, I'm not sure what the problem is????
Pourable SFI foam is better material
..from the material specs I mean since it support better temperature environment in case that the crash has a fire event as well. BOTH are a 'passive' crushable materials type of protection and will work ONE time and degraded a little or a lot on second impact, there is room therefore for adding strategic pieces of dense AER Confor if you want extra safety. BOTH absolutely must be well 'helmet' shelled (as it was said here) to perform their duties, i.e. the shell must be responsible for ALL the hard points of attachment, so put extra layers of glass cloth right there.
Since this is a labor intensive job with several iterations it is an ideal money saver for the car owners drivers... so be happy and do it patiently.
OVERALL HAVE FUN !!! it is for your better performance and safety.
Thank you all for the good advise and experience offering... very valuable !!!
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