Unrestricted shifting in FB

[Mike Devins]

Based on the latest proposal from the CRB to completely restrict shifting in FB to mechanical shifter only I think that it would be interesting to see how many of you would like to the see the opposite, unrestricted shifting in FB.

Example: Shifting is unrestricted including fully automatic up-shifts and queued down-shift pre-select.

1. Unrestricted shifting (I am a current FB driver, owner, building a car).
2. Restricted rule set maybe more liberal than the latest proposal but absolutely no preselected gears (I am a current FB driver, owner, building a car).
3. Unrestricted shifting (crew, scca member, driver not in FB).
4. Restricted rule set maybe more liberal than the latest proposal but absolutely no preselected gears (crew, scca member, driver not in FB).

[JohnPaul]

great thinking Mike, we can finally see pure numbers on the subject including who the people are in relation to the class. kudos

[ASRF1000]

If restricted shifting but slightly more liberal means; current style electro/pneumatic assisted shifters with absolutely no pre-selected gear shifts....I am #2

[JohnPaul]

ok, now I'm a little confused. I'm not really in favor of pre selected (automatic) gear change but am in favor of the current systems that are out there: geartronics, flatshifter, pro shifter, bazzaz etc.

[Mike Devins]

Jon, number 2 in my mind would be something like a Flatshifter. It has a wire in the system but the shift is mechanically actuated by the driver. Of course if you put one on a air-shifter you would be illegal because until someone can come up with a way to police all of the issues that are in the other thread pages one through five and maybe six by now.

[JohnPaul]

F' it, I vote totally unrestricted. If someone can beat me with an automatic more power to them!

[ASRF1000]

Ok Mike, So where would I be if I was in favor of shift systems like geartronics, Pro Shift, etc.? This is where I'm at. Thank you.

[cooleyjb]

This poll won't show the real numbers and even the CRB guys know that. I know a number of people who run FB who aren't on the boards.

[Wren]

This poll won't show the real numbers and even the CRB guys know that. I know a number of people who run FB who aren't on the boards.

Let's be honest, the CRB would ignore it even it was meaningful. They have proven how out of touch they are with membership on the whole and the class specifically.

[Mike Devins]

Ok Mike, So where would I be if I was in favor of shift systems like geartronics, Pro Shift, etc.? This is where I'm at. Thank you.

With geartronics you would be in number 1 since the CRB per does see a way to insure that it is not in made where it can preselect shifts.

With the Pro Shift you would be in number 2 if the CRB can suggest new working that would allow the use of strain gauges in order for the system to be able to ignition cut and throttle blip.

I guess that I should have add a option for the new proposal as is but I can not figure out how to edit the poll portion of the post.

please not that there is a mistake in this post please refer to #12 for the correction

[ghickman]

Mike
I believe really what you may be intending to say is CLOSED LOOP vs OPEN LOOP. The only real difference between the CLOSED LOOP Geartronics system and the OPEN LOOP Proshift system is that one keeps track of gear position, engine rpm, and possibly wheel speed. The OPEN LOOP system does none of these.

And for your information and to others the Proshift is now available as a CLOSED LOOP.

My system is OPEN LOOP for now, but I may close the loop soon with a new micro processor and a rotary encoder on the shift barrel. I can sample several channels at once, the only limit being the processor.

I really doubt the CRB or any of the powers at be in the SCCA either care or want to really learn about these systems.

The only real answer to all this is to make the shifter rules OPEN like Stan Clayton has suggested....and I agree this is the only solution.

[Mike Devins]

Mike
I believe really what you may be intending to say is CLOSED LOOP vs OPEN LOOP. The only real difference between the CLOSED LOOP Geartronics system and the OPEN LOOP Proshift system is that one keeps track of gear position, engine rpm, and possibly wheel speed. The OPEN LOOP system does none of these.

And for your information and to others the Proshift is now available as a CLOSED LOOP.

My system is OPEN LOOP for now, but I may close the loop soon with a new micro processor and a rotary encoder on the shift barrel. I can sample several channels at once, the only limit being the processor.

I really doubt the CRB or any of the powers at be in the SCCA either care or want to really learn about these systems.

The only real answer to all this is to make the shifter rules OPEN like Stan Clayton has suggested....and I agree this is the only solution.

my mistake, I was actually had meant the Flat Shift which does not actuate the shift, it simply monitors the strain on the lever in order to know what to do with the throttle or ignition.

[John Mosteller]

Mike could you change my vote to number 2 for now.I am not against shifting aids in the future but don't think they are legal now.So the rule would have to be changed for it to happen.However I don't think we should have preselected automatic shifting and don't see how it can be policed by scrutineering so maybe we need manual only until such point a way to police the different systems can be decided on.

Also I will only support approval of systems that will work on all engine platforms. Manual systems will work on all platforms and the direct acting systems will work on all platforms.Which is where I believe the rule we have now is with everyone having the same performance opportunity.

The Geartronics however according to their website will only work on transmissions that have a provision for a barrel sensor which means no Honda's or pre 09 Yamaha's.I believe that every competitor should have the same equality as far as the rules package goes. Which will not be the case if we allow the geartronics or any other system that only works on certain engine platforms.

[ghickman]

The Geartronics however according to their website will only work on transmissions that have a provision for a barrel sensor which means no Honda's or pre 09 Yamaha's.I believe that every competitor should have the same equality as far as the rules package goes. Which will not be the case if we allow the geartronics or any other system that only works on certain engine platforms.

John
I think the Geartronics site may be out of date. They can sample gear position with a linear encoder on the shift lever.

I've done it and there's no reason they can't.....and I'd guess they've forgotten more about doing this than I ever will know. I'm a code writter just the wrong type of code.

It's going to be tough to Police the Closed Loop systems just due to the fact they can sample many channels and can be programmed somewhat easily. I think we just about have you convinced that these are the ticket. Heck if money was a problem for you I'd loan you a system.

[John Mosteller]

Gary I already have a system but am not convinced that manual won't work just fine. There are plenty DSR's running manual with good results. I am not convinced that nobody can run a manual system without blowing up their engine. Manual is a no brainer to police and if everyone had a manual then everyone would be on equal ground. Of course it would really be dreadful if everyone had to brake a car length or two earlier to have time to make the shifts. Niki seems to run at the front with a manual so it is not impossible and as far as some shifting inconsistancy there are plenty that have that with hewlands when they try to rush things.

As far as geartronics updating their site - I don't know but what is on there in the question and answer section that I quoted below is that it can't be measured accurately at the lever arm.

Q. Is it possible to operate a closed-loop system by measuring the linear position of the shift lever?
A. Not reliably, no. Although the position of the lever gives some indication, it does not accurately represent the position of the selector forks and dog rings. Measuring the lever position does not allow the control system to determine which gear is selected because it always comes to rest in the same position. The only reliable way to operate a gear shift system is to measure the position of the selector barrel using a rotary position sensor.
Q. Can the Geartronics paddleshift system be fitted to any sequential gearbox?
A. Our paddleshift system will work with most, but not all, sequential gearboxes that have provision for a barrel position sensor. Our experience allows us to evaluate any potential gearbox installation and decide if paddleshift is suitable for your application. In some cases your gearbox may simply be incapable of accepting semi-auto shifting. Rest assured, if we can't do it then no-one else can!
Q. Can the paddleshift system be fitted to motorcycle gearboxes?
A. Some, but not all. We have developed systems to work with the Suzuki GSXR1000, Hayabusa and Honda Fireblade gearboxes, but only after making the appropriate modification to the gearbox in order to fit a barrel position sensor. There are several systems on the market that are advertised to work on any motorcycle gearbox, but these do not use any form of gearbox monitoring and are nothing more than simple timer devices. We would advise you to think very carefully before fitting one of these systems as the crude control methods they employ may result in serious gearbox damage.

[SIZE=4][/SIZE]

[ghickman]

Niki seems to run at the front with a manual so it is not impossible

As far as geartronics updating their site - I don't know but what is on there in the question and answer section that I quoted below is that it can't be measured accurately at the lever arm.

John
I've tried the linear encoder on the lever and it seems to work just fine. I'm working on an adaptor to go into the GSXR1000 box where the stock rotary pot is to use an off the shelf rotary encoder. It's just a lot more tiddy that way in my opinion and the rotary encoders are less expensive.

I'm fairly certain Niki would be using the Geartronics if his car wasn't already over weight, my understanding was he didn't want the added 16 lbs.

Most of the fast DSR guys don't want the weight penalty either, they're even going back to wet sumps to save on weight.

[Thomas Copeland]

I have tried not to get too further involved in this topic online but I thought I should perhaps clear up one thing. This has been mention before but seems to have been lost somewhere along the way.

The North American version of the Geartronics software is not the same as mentioned on the Geartronics website. It does not allow the pre-selection of gears or any type of queing or automatic gear function. The software has a "lock" that prevents this. The software can be very easily be checked (or policed) by plugging in a laptop.

The only thing the software can do is "reject" a gear change to prevent an overrev that may cause blowing up an engine. While part of the software this is really no different than putting a rev-limiter on your car. The driver still must intiate all gear changes by activating the paddles. Same principal as if I was grabbing a normal gear lever. If a shift has been rejected the driver must re-initiate the gear change again and again and again if necessary until the software allows the gear change. Same principle as if I was grabbing a gear lever and missed a shift. Only this is in paddle form, not lever. There is absolutely nothing "automatic" or "pre-selective" about these shifter systems.

They do require a "manual" operation to function. But instead of a lever, its a paddle. Anyway, hope that helps clear up a few things.

[JohnPaul]

so are options #2 and #4 basically the rules we have now or is that supposed to be the "mechanical only" option proposed by the CRB? if not, I think it should have an option for "Mechanical only" since there are a few guys that are in favor of that. Or are we trying to stay as far away from that option as possible? fine with me but I think everyone should be represented.

[2BWise]

John
I think the Geartronics site may be out of date. They can sample gear position with a linear encoder on the shift lever.

I've done it and there's no reason they can't.....and I'd guess they've forgotten more about doing this than I ever will know. I'm a code writter just the wrong type of code.

It's going to be tough to Police the Closed Loop systems just due to the fact they can sample many channels and can be programmed somewhat easily. I think we just about have you convinced that these are the ticket. Heck if money was a problem for you I'd loan you a system.

Preface; not currently in FB, but have involvement in other classes as a driver and crew.

If you really wanted to get fancy you could operate closed loop control and turn the thing into an automatic. But I don't think there would be too many people lining up for that unless it was a lot faster. Maybe the limiting factor should be no microprocessors. Then you remove all the "smart" shifting systems but don't lose the electronic options. Its tough to police since you could hide a micro anywhere.

Question; a little off topic, but did you have any issues using a linear encoder on the shift lever? The reason I ask is I've had issues in the past with MC gearboxes and false neutrals. One of the shifters I built I'd considered tracking movement of the shift lever, but with the occasional false neutral it was unreliable and I ditched it.

[Mike Devins]

John Paul,

Option 2 and 4 would include devices like a flat shifter, not devices such as the Geartronics since they actuate the transmission and have micro processors.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have tried not to get too further involved in this topic online but I thought I should perhaps clear up one thing. This has been mention before but seems to have been lost somewhere along the way.

The North American version of the Geartronics software is not the same as mentioned on the Geartronics website. It does not allow the pre-selection of gears or any type of queing or automatic gear function. The software has a "lock" that prevents this. The software can be very easily be checked (or policed) by plugging in a laptop.

The only thing the software can do is "reject" a gear change to prevent an overrev that may cause blowing up an engine. While part of the software this is really no different than putting a rev-limiter on your car. The driver still must intiate all gear changes by activating the paddles. Same principal as if I was grabbing a normal gear lever. If a shift has been rejected the driver must re-initiate the gear change again and again and again if necessary until the software allows the gear change. Same principle as if I was grabbing a gear lever and missed a shift. Only this is in paddle form, not lever. There is absolutely nothing "automatic" or "pre-selective" about these shifter systems.

They do require a "manual" operation to function. But instead of a lever, its a paddle. Anyway, hope that helps clear up a few things.

I understand your frustration in having to attempt to clarify things/capabilities over and over....some just read what they want to read.

I bolded one sentence in the above quote as it might be a little bit of stretch, attempting to make the geartronics a little bit more palatable to those on the fence or ignorant of the system. Rev-limiters don't limit revs by preventing a downshift. The downshift and the subsequent mechanical overrev still happen with a rev limiter.

Other than ones' own morals and integrity what is to prevent someone from having two versions of the software installed and a means to hide and activate one or the other?

[Mike Devins]

Other than ones' own morals and integrity what is to prevent someone from having two versions of the software installed and a means to hide and activate one or the other?

And that is the issue....

[blackbmwk1200r]

The only thing the software can do is "reject" a gear change to prevent an overrev that may cause blowing up an engine.

Thomas, would you explain how it does this?

If a driver is breaking hard into a corner and wants to drop 3 gears during braking; can the driver quickly initiate the 3 downshifts at the start of braking and then does the geartronics take them as it determines they can be made without exceeding a predetermined rpm or will it reject all but the shift(s) that can be made at the time of initiation by the driver even though later in braking the car reduces its speed to where the geartronics could make the rejected shift without damage to the engine.

Sid Smith

[Brands]

I'll have a number 2 please!

[Daryl DeArman]

If a driver is breaking hard into a corner and wants to drop 3 gears during braking; can the driver quickly initiate the 3 downshifts at the start of braking and then does the geartronics take them as it determines they can be made without exceeding a predetermined rpm or will it reject all but the shift(s) that can be made at the time of initiation

If the driver quickly selected 3 downshifts and downshift 1 was requested when road speed was too high for the next lower gear that shift is rejected. If the speed was still too high when number 2 was requested, it too would be rejected. Shift 3 could be as well, depending on how soon they were requested and how quickly (or slowly) the car is decelerating....

The end result, as I understand it, is that if you just quickly grab 3 gears knowing that's how many you need you may get 3, maybe 2, maybe 1, maybe 0. In other words, unpredictable to use that style, unless your braking and requesting rythym is extremely consitant.

Now, if you know that you need 3 (say 6th to 3rd) and you are certain your road speed will not go below max rpm in 2nd before you are done grabbing. You could just brake and keep grabbing gears until you are in 3rd and then quit requesting another gear....the big assumption there is that you will be able to recognize you are at the correct speed and stop braking while you've been dorking away clicking gears.

[Alex Pate]

The geartronics software is locked. and there is no way anyone can enable auto shifting.

[DonArm]

Hummm, I wonder if the CRB in all of their flaming glory could come up with a mathematical formula to refute the above poll?

[Daryl DeArman]

The geartronics software is locked. and there is no way anyone can enable auto shifting.

Any software is crackable....it's just a matter of how bad someone wants to do it.

I don't think anybody is arguing that auto shifting is desirable. I'm thinking the fear is the ability to queue shifts...which would be faster more often than not.

[blackbmwk1200r]

there is no way anyone can enable auto shifting.

If I understand the shift reject ability correctly it appears that a form of auto down shifting is already enabled. While braking if the driver constantly request shifts he will automatically get the shifts as soon as required parameters are met that do not result in the shift being rejected. The need to simultaneous brake, steer and bang away at the shift paddle would appear to negate any benefit. Nonetheless the shift would automatically occur in response to preestablished criteria and the driver would not determine the exact timing for each shift.

[John LaRue]

that is not what I would consider "automatic" as the driver is in fact required to take direct action to effectuate a shift, that is constantly banging on the shifter until something happens.

It seems that the question has been whether one could que up a number of shifts and then as the car reached the pre-determined parameters the shifts would occur; you have answered that, no.

[starkejt]

If I understand the shift reject ability correctly it appears that a form of auto down shifting is already enabled. While braking if the driver constantly request shifts he will automatically get the shifts as soon as required parameters are met that do not result in the shift being rejected. The need to simultaneous brake, steer and bang away at the shift paddle would appear to negate any benefit. Nonetheless the shift would automatically occur in response to preestablished criteria and the driver would not determine the exact timing for each shift.

This has been discussed ad nauseam in the many threads. I don't blame you for not wanting to read them, though. They aren't exactly enjoyable reading.

The Geartronics system does not work like this in practice. I understand your logic, but the reality is if you try constantly hitting the paddle like you say, you will find it impossible to end up in the gear you want with any amount of control or consistency. If your target is to end up in 2nd, you'd find yourself in 3rd or 1st for the corner about as often as 2nd with that method.

The only time you ever see rejected shifts on track in the real world is when the driver hits the left paddle unintentionally, as in reaching for a brake bias adjuster or sway bar adjuster while on the straightaway. Unlike a traditional shift lever, it takes relatively little force to actuate the paddles, so a light bump on the straightaway is all it would take to grenade an engine. That is the main purpose of this feature.

[Wren]

Nonetheless the shift would automatically occur in response to preestablished criteria and the driver would not determine the exact timing for each shift.

You are correct that this would not be a fast way, but I do not think you are correct that this would be automatic. The shift would only occur at the exact time of a discrete paddle click by the driver and the driver would determine the exact timing as the shift would be when the driver selected it.

I'm not particularly interested in sharing a track with a driver who goes into a corner with his head down in the cockpit staring at a gear position indicator waiting for his number to come up so he can stop randomly clicking his downshift paddle.

[starkejt]

Just in case anyone might be curious, here is a plot of gear position vs. time for the turn 5 braking zone at Road America for a single lap. All of the fast laps look very similar. Driver (Schwietz) waits roughly 0.7 sec between start of braking and first downshift, and pauses for roughly 0.2 sec between downshifts. Looks like he waited a bit longer before making the shift to 2nd though. Guess I need to get him a metronome.

Attachment 23826

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm not particularly interested in sharing a track with a driver who goes into a corner with his head down in the cockpit staring at a gear position indicator waiting for his number to come up so he can stop randomly clicking his downshift paddle.

Ha! Ha! Yeah, without looking at a gear indicator it would be absolutely impossible to tell how many downshifts have occured....HA!

It's apparent to me that given the rate that the cars are decelerating and the ratios that it's more of a rythym than anything else. Probably akin to a 125 shifter on a tight sprint track, however, not shifting as often as the shifter.

[Jnovak]

Counting gears is the preferable method as opposed to looking at your data system gear indicator. It becomes second nature pretty quickly.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[Brett Lane]

As is with the Micron 3 dash, you can't even see the gear position indicator in average light while driving. If you start staring at it to see what gear your in, you're going to hit something.

[Daryl DeArman]

Ha! Ha! Yeah, without looking at a gear indicator it would be absolutely impossible to tell how many downshifts have occured....HA!

In case it wasn't apparent...^^^ that was sarcasm towards Wrens comment.

[billwald]

Can anyone explain the simplist flat shifter available? One that works with stock mechanical paddles and can be easily disconnected for club events. I have heard there is one that if it fails during a race, it reverts to normal mechanical.

Wish there was a seperate link as kind of a product review page. Cost, install, operation, reliability, likes, etc. Other than reading parts of threads, I know very little about whats available.

Thanks!

[Wren]

In case it wasn't apparent...^^^ that was sarcasm towards Wrens comment.

I was ignoring it because the statement shows me that you have a clear lack of understanding of how a front running FB performs in the brake zone. No one is going to be counting how many shifts they felt accurately.

Can anyone explain the simplist flat shifter available? One that works with stock mechanical paddles and can be easily disconnected for club events. I have heard there is one that if it fails during a race, it reverts to normal mechanical.

Wish there was a seperate link as kind of a product review page. Cost, install, operation, reliability, likes, etc. Other than reading parts of threads, I know very little about whats available.

Thanks!

the flatshifter that Rilltech sells should meet that need. It uses the strain Gage on the shift rod for actuation. Once you unhook the wires to the strain gage, then you should be fine.

[billwald]

Thanks Wren! Just saved their website.