F2KCS Hoosier Tire Test

[nulrich]

Kevin:

I'll be able to change the suspension geometry on a Radon in a fraction of the time it takes you to MEASURE it on your car . And we can also change the F/R weight distribution a lot more as well. I'm not worried about adapting to a new tire, especially since we already have an alternate geometry designed for the club tires.

A lot of people are complaining based on my inbox and phone calls I've received, it's just that no one else is stupid enough to do so in public .

Aren't you worried that the reduced tire patch is going to be a problem with all the downforce you'll be generating with the new Dauntless wings?

Nathan

[KevinFirlein]

a new tire is a just a variable change. I see no reason to lose sleep over it.

[John Caldwell]

I"ll second what Kevin stated. We have been running 8" & 9" bias rears for several years and there is not that much difference. Long fast tracks favor the 8" , at places like Grattan (great fun track) where you struggle for rear grip exiting all the corners the 9" is faster. I think the stiffer side wall is a wonderful thing.

Thanks,
John

[jim morgan]

I have the same opinion as Dave W.

[Jnovak]

I was there when the cars were unloaded and then put on the setup pad and I can tell you that they had a TON more static negative camber than the usual F2000 bias tire setup. I was told that there were other setup changes but I did not enquire as it was not my business.

There was also a great deal of other data acquired in addition to lap times. Nathan, I suggest that you give Hoosier, the teams & 2 of the top drivers in the nation a little credit before stating that the decision was flawed.

If fact I think you should shutup & race.

Jay Novak

[KRISKAISER84]

I would like to start with thanking Hoosier Tire and the F2000 series for picking us to do their tire test. Although it wasn't easy, our truck and trailer left PA with 5 cars on 1/1/11. We tested Sebring with 2 014 atlantic cars on 1/3 & 1/4. Than ran 3 different cars at the National where we qualified on pole for both races, won the first race by a large margin. DNF in the 2nd due to a TPS sensor. Off to Homestead were we tested 2 Atlantic cars and a FF. We ran 2 cars for the National. With 1 prep day between Sebring and Homestead we finished 1st in both races, also with a 3rd and 4th place finish. Without a prep day we drove to Savannah for the tire test. Changed gears, camber, 100 lb spring change on both cars, no change in damper settings and started the tire test. Never once putting a car on the platform through out the whole test and running under the track record. Keep in mind the Nationals were both doubles and we had 3 crew people. We ran the 2 2 liter cars over 800 miles in all those days. We did have 2 pro wins last year, VIR & Lime Rock. 2nd in F2000 points with a very limited budget(digging tires out of junk piles for testing). Guess that makes us a 2nd rate team.

I sat for 3 days and bit my tongue but if you can do better please by all means do so.

Kris Kaiser - K-Hill Motorsports

[starkejt]

I would like to start with thanking Hoosier Tire and the F2000 series for picking us to do their tire test. Although it wasn't easy, our truck and trailer left PA with 5 cars on 1/1/11. We tested Sebring with 2 014 atlantic cars on 1/3 & 1/4. Than ran 3 different cars at the National where we qualified on pole for both races, won the first race by a large margin. DNF in the 2nd due to a TPS sensor. Off to Homestead were we tested 2 Atlantic cars and a FF. We ran 2 cars for the National. With 1 prep day between Sebring and Homestead we finished 1st in both races, also with a 3rd and 4th place finish. Without a prep day we drove to Savannah for the tire test. Changed gears, camber, 100 lb spring change on both cars, no change in damper settings and started the tire test. Never once putting a car on the platform through out the whole test and running under the track record. Keep in mind the Nationals were both doubles and we had 3 crew people. We ran the 2 2 liter cars over 800 miles in all those days. We did have 2 pro wins last year, VIR & Lime Rock. 2nd in F2000 points with a very limited budget(digging tires out of junk piles for testing). Guess that makes us a 2nd rate team.

I sat for 3 days and bit my tongue but if you can do better please by all means do so.

Kris Kaiser - K-Hill Motorsports

Radon could definitely do better. Nathan entered your scenario into a sophisticated computer model, and it reported that they would have won every one of those races while still getting 10 hours sleep a night at a Holiday Inn Express and using the clearly superior 9" rear tires.

I would think it would be wise to prove that one has built a better mousetrap before one boasts, but that's just me.

[jim morgan]

I get a sense of a common denominator in these off season threads that go negative,or is just me?

OBTW Kris nice job in your extended visit to the South.

[cooleyjb]

I get a sense of a common denominator in these off season threads that go negative,or is just me?

OBTW Kris nice job in your extended visit to the South.

From someone who doesn't get involved too often in these threads it should be denominators

[jim morgan]

Joe,
I don't disagree with your view but my intent was singular especially this thread.

[nulrich]

Not to interfere with anyone's fantasy, but nowhere in this thread have I "boasted" or made any claims about the Radon (which will hopefully, but not certainly be racing this year). In fact, the only people making claims about the Radon are the people trying to change the rules to ban it, and who are making ludicrous claims like it will be four seconds a lap faster than existing cars.

I did say that the Radon is designed to allow suspension geometry changes very quickly, which does not necessarily translate to on-track performance.

My point, which seems to have been missed in the rush to attack me, is that the new tire size was selected arbitrarily and without the input of the front-running F2000 teams, all of whom have spent several years figuring out how to make the Van Diemen work with the current 9" rear tires. That doesn't mean that Cole and Tonis aren't good drivers, or that K-Hill and Gibby didn't work hard during the test. It simply means that testing tires on one particular setup, which is not the same as the one other teams have settled on for the 7/9" radials, and not adjusting setup to compensate for the change in F/R balance, tells us nothing about the ultimate relative performance of the various options.

And, again, not to confuse the issue with actual facts, but I attacked no one in this thread, nor have I been anything but civil (unless, maybe, your name is Van Diemen). The same cannot be said for others, including Mike Rand, who personally attacked me when I questioned the basis for making a radical change in tire size. I was also attacked by others I don't know (and apparently don't participate in the F2000 series) but I have thick skin, so feel free to continue .

There are several good reasons to go to a smaller rear tire, including cost, weight, faster top speeds, and similarity to club bias tires. It would have been more honest to simply announce the tire size change for those reasons rather than claiming it was based on performance.

I would have preferred that Hoosier had not made such a dramatic change in tire size at the last minute, since we have enough testing and development to do without adding an additional variable, but we'll figure it out.

Kris, I never claimed that you didn't provide a valuable service, but I'm sure you would have appreciated the input of Glenn Phillips, who has more experience on these tires across multiple chassis and drivers than anyone. I also think I could have provided some insight from a chassis and suspension design standpoint, since I have thoroughly modeled the Van Diemen suspension and know exactly how setup changes affect suspension behavior. Glenn and I were planning to fly down, at our expense, but we were told that we could not be involved in the test, and would only be allowed to observe from a distance. I'm certain that a more collaborative approach would have resulted in a better test, but you may disagree.

This is what I said earlier in the thread, in case you missed it:

Although I wish the final decision had been different, I do appreciate the work that Cole, Tonis, K-Hill and the folks at Hoosier did. We can make our cars work with any of the tires, it will just require a lot more testing with a completely new rear tire size.

Nathan

[Purple Frog]

Folks reading this please understand one thing.

This was a Hoosier tire test, put on and paid for completely by Hoosier. It was not in any way, shape, or form a F2000 Championship Series event. For decades tire companies have been testing their new products in relative secrecy behind locked gates. And, those companies hire teams to do the testing. I know a lot of frontrunners that have tested for one or more companies over the years (many are Apexspeeders). Hoosier, Goodyear, Cooper, whoever tire company, can not reasonably own and operate every configuration of race car that they build tires for. So they contract with teams of their choice to test.

In this case, Hoosier graciously invited the F2KCS competitors to watch and listen, and even ask questions. F2KCS passed the invitation on to their competitors. Hoosier did not want nor need any more help, than that which they had contracted with, to perform their test protocal as planned.

[Matt M.]

Joe,
I don't disagree with your view but my intent was singular especially this thread.

Fine - I'm sorry for the VD comment.... There I go being insensitive again. I'm starting to think there is some bias against "Northerners" here... Every time I say something - somebody with a funny accent gets offended...

For some reason I can't get the picture of Kevin's red face out of my head - even when I sleep at night. Is anyone else having this problem?

What about the rumour going around that the mandatory engine in 2L is changing to Honda in 2012?

[jim morgan]

Now I'm really getting worried about you. Most grown men don't admit to dreaming about Kevin, but then again I did hear you once spent some time in France.

[KevinFirlein]

I just went from laughing hysterically to being scarred for life in 2 posts

[Chris Livengood]

Drink the Kool-Aid, or wear the foil hat?

I didn't realize i hung out with so many school girls.

[lil_fatboy]

Foschi is on double secret probation.

[lil_fatboy]

Nathan, your biggest mistake was ever going on this website. I know that it was in the interests of selling a new car. This wonderful new car was susposed to be on track at the begining of 2010. Dude where's the car? Having pissing matches with everyone involved in the sport is not a good sales tool. Sincerely, Lil Fatboy Foschi University Graduate

[jim morgan]

when lil fatboy is lecturing you on people management skills it might be time to take a step back and reexamine your approach

[carnut169]

Just curious if anyone has any of the old tires (new or next to new) they'd like to sell? Sounds like they might not be worth much to anyone but a club racer like me!

[Matt M.]

Now I'm really getting worried about you. Most grown men don't admit to dreaming about Kevin, but then again I did hear you once spent some time in France.

No no - it's not like that at all.... Just because they allow gay marrige in my state doesn't mean we all are looking for a bride - Kevin will remember - at Mid-O I hit my head on the corner of a popout - when I opened my eyes I was looking right at him - it messed me up...

I got a txt from a 212 area code saying Foschi was caught up in the FBI dragnet last week...

[lil_fatboy]

I think Kevin is right. Seems like you are always on the wrong side of the fence.

[jim morgan]

That is one scary photo.

[lil_fatboy]

No no - it's not like that at all.... Just because they allow gay marrige in my state doesn't mean we all are looking for a bride - Kevin will remember - at Mid-O I hit my head on the corner of a popout - when I opened my eyes I was looking right at him - it messed me up...

I got a txt from a 212 area code saying Foschi was caught up in the FBI dragnet last week...

matt, you where right I got a FBI contact and he sent me this mugshot.