Yamaha Opportunity

[Bill Maisey]

[I am posting this for Hasty Horn. Please contact him concerning this post. His info is at the bottom of this page.]

As most of you have probably noticed the Suzuki GSXR is the current engine of favor within Formula B and DSR. It wasn't always so. When I first acquired my initial chassis (a 1998 Cheetah) the most popular engine was the ZX-11 Kawasaki (sleeved down) and when I decided to run the 1998 Yamaha R1 there were a lot of naysayers. Surprise! It became the dominant engine for about four years. I loved doing that.

I recently decided to try to do that again but was going to focus on Formula B with its "stock" engine requirement. I selected the 2009 R1 engine to be my guinea pig. While appearing to be a traditional in-line four the 2009 R1 is actually a V-4 in disguise (really it fires like a V-4 and requires a balance shaft to calm the resultant in-line architecture vibes). The reasoning behind this modification makes a lot of sense for a motorcycle racer and indeed, Valentino Rossi has successfully campaigned this engine to the last two MotoGP championships (although not this year since he broke his leg recently...although his teammate is in the lead for the Championship...Jorge Lorenzo). Anyway, I purchased two new 2009 R1's, stripped the engines out of the frames (sold the frames and running gear) and sent one engine to George Dean and one engine to Ken Taggart. Ken was building both a modified wet sump for the R1 and (the one I intended to use) a dry sump similar in design to the ones he had built for the earlier R1's and a wet sump (with modified sump pan and swinging pickup).

After much time and effort George has managed to find competitive (for Formula B) HP while staying within the FB rules...that is approximately 176 RWHP, which, while not a major improvement over his best GSXR is the equal of them. Unfortunately, we also discovered that the R1 is by comparison to the GSXR quite heavy....17 lbs. heavier...which is quite a lot but since FB requires the package to be a minimum of 1000lbs. with driver and since most combinations had to ballast to that weight I didn't see the weight difference as a deal killer. I find, however that while I am still interested in seeing this engine used competitively I don't believe that my own competitive urges or capabilities are strong enough to continue racing. I could sell the engines and go-fast pieces and replenish my own coffers. Frankly, the monetary return is less than important than vindication of concept. Thus I have decided to make an offer to any individual who is actively considering entering Formula B of the following equipment if that individual will install (and with the manufacturer's assistance and acceptance) this engine package into his new Phoenix, Stohr, Ralf Firman (RFR), or Philly Motorsports chassis. I have selected what I consider to be the most viable chassis's currently available. While a "conversion" might also prove competitive that opens the door to too many circumstances where I couldn't assure myself of a competitive package. Working with the chassis manufacturer would be the linchpin for securing such a deal. I would not ship these pieces to an individual on the promise of installing them at some later date. These pieces would be FREE with no obligations other than the ones already stated


2 ea. 2009 R1 zero mile engine/car kits (includes, throttle bodies, airbox with built-in stepper motor for throttle control and two stage velocity stacks, full bike wiring harness and stock ECU)
1 ea Newly overhauled Taggart/Taylor Quaife
1 ea. YEC Racing ECU
1 ea. JETTTUNED ECU (re-flashed OEM ECU to YEC specifications)
1 ea. stock 2009 OEM ECU
1 wet sump system modified for race car use (includes new higher volume pan, baffles and swinging pickup)
1 dry sump system for race car use (new pan, new oil pump system with scavenge. requires use of an electric water pump)
1 set of YEC Racing variable velocity stacks
1 ea 2009 Yamaha R1 service manual

If you or anyone else that you know is interested in going this route let me know. I'm prepared to ship the entire package to whichever FB manufacturer you select.

Hasty Horn
HastyM@AOL.com
1720 Chopin Drive
Charlottesville, VA 22903
(434) 295-5079

[Franklin Futrelle]

lets find a car

[cparsons]

Bill, I am forwarding this post to a friend on the west coast. About 2 weeks ago he dropped the swift off at Loynings, and took a tour of the Stohr factory which is just across the street. He asked me to be on the lookout for a 1L motor.

[B_Alley]

I would use that motor, just for the sound?! MAN

I mean this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh8H5s_paks

or THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWPgy...eature=related

[RussMcB]

Bill, tell Hasty there are a bunch of people impressed with this offer. I hope it lands in a fast chassis behind a fast driver.

[JohnPaul]

I don't see this deal lasting long. this is going to be a blessing to someone.

[HastyHorn]

Considering the results from the Run-Offs I've decided to add Citation to the list of acceptable chassis manufacturers eligible for my engine/differential package. Duh!

Hasty Horn
HastyM@AOL.com

1720 Chopin Drive
Charlottesville, VA 22903

(434) 295-5079

[DonArm]

Rob Laverty may be interested. He was running a Yamaha before but didn't have a lot of luck with his setup. He's decided to come back to FB.
I think he may actually have a dry sump system for the Yamaha engine.

[HastyHorn]

He may have a dry sump system for the earlier model (pre 2009) R1 but it is unlikely that he has one to fit the new (very different, fires like a v-4 engine) R1.

Hasty Horn

[RussMcB]

If Rob has decided to stick with FB this would be a great opportunity and combination. I would love to see it for several reasons. I know Rob's a great driver and would do well with a fast and reliable package. Go for it!

[S Lathrop]

Hasty;

The Citation uses the oil pan as a structural member in the chassis. For each engine we have to design an oil pan. For the Suzuki we have a wet sump (Tom Schweitz) or a dry sump system (Brandon Dixon). Designing an engine bay that provides sufficient strength to handle the cornering loads that a FB can generate and not stress the engine itself is difficult. Ideally the pan should be 1.5 inches deep. The oli pan, rear drive assembly and engine form an integrated structure.

This is just a heads up for anyone thinking about trying this engine in a Citation chassis. Also the Citations of Brandon and Tom are new designed cars dating from 2006. There are no interchangeable parts between the 1994 Citations (Weitzenhof, Rubenzer and Oseth) and the 2006 cars. However, 2006 parts can be used to update the 1994 cars. When fully updated the 1994 Citation will perform right with a new car.

The R1 pan I did was 1 inch.

[RobLav]

I'm glad to see people thinking of me!

I have seen Hasty's offer listed on here, and we have communicated about his 09 Yamaha setup before his fabulous offer. As Steve said, we'd need to build a new pan - my older Yamaha pan would probably not work unless it was close enough to alter. But Hasty already has the pump offered as part of the package, and I already have the water pump, etc...

The positives are certainly cost... but I'd be going off on another direction than the other Citations, and there would be some development involved. At this point, I want a car with a "lug" of an engine that will run forever so I can work on chassis and driver development. Secondary to that priority is the desire for the speed of an FB. If I had confidence that the 09 Yamaha will fit that bill, I'd do it.

[HastyHorn]

I had forgotten that the Citation setup required the sump to tie into the chassis.. That presents some unusual problems. Ken Taggart's dry sump design aimed at reducing the overall height of the engine (after installation) and the resultant dry sump plate reduces the overall height of the wet sump engine by about 2.5 inches. Redesigning the dry sump plate, while doable, would require that a. I talk Ken back into active duty (he's semi-retired and only did the current system out of kindness to me) and b. it would lose an attribute (lower cg) that we fought hard to achieve.

Strangely, we also designed (and built) a wet sump pan (with swinging pickup) should we have determined that the buying public wouldn't be willing to pay the cost of the dry sump system. That sump is about 3 inches deep.

I'd like to crow about the benefits of the R1 but to do so would be both unseemly and perhaps not applicable to our racing venue. The 2009 R1 has proven very competitive in AMA Superbike racing...it just won the AMA Championship. Although the AMA Superbike engine's are not stock. As I mentioned earlier, George Dean feels as if it is comparable to the best GSXR (FB legal, and running pump gas). The final truth is that attempting to be Nationally competitive with a new engine is fraught with difficulty (thus the Osbourne BMW 1000).

So the search for a proper chassis continues.

Hasty Horn

[HastyHorn]

I've given this enough time and had no takers so I've purchased an older Cheetah and I plan to use the 09 engines for me and for fun. It won't display the competitiveness but I'll have some fun.

Hasty Horn

[Bob Wheless]

Welcome back Hasty,,,,, look forward to seeing you in the spring...........bob