New car purchase

[David J. Marguglio]

I am very much a newbie, not just to formula racing, but to racing in general. I have been doing time trials, drivers ed’s and autocrosses through PCA for about two years. For the last year I have been researching the purchase of a purpose-built racecar. Long story short, I have narrowed my search to a few cars: a 1997-01 FC, a FranAm 1600, or the new Enterprises car. My objective is to own a great car that will hold its value reasonably well, while providing me with a fun and cost effective (relatively speaking) means of participating in regional and club level racing that could develop into national and/or pro level in time. I am anxious to hear any and all opinions from you guys, also if anyone is, or knows someone that is, campaigning a formula car in the San Diego area, that too would be helpful. Thank you in advance for your opinions and comments.

[Aiken Racing]

Buy a 1 year old Ex-Pro Zetec. No question. It is the current Pro car and will be for the next 4 years. You can pick one up now cheaper then I bought my 01' roller at the beginning of this year. I'm getting one, and I have looked at everything out there. My second choice would be an 01' FC, but it will cost you more to run than a Zetec. I have an 01' FC, so my choice is relatively easy. Plus I would like to see the Zetec numbers grow. Just my 2 cents.....

[BrooksHall]

Hi David I agree a late model VD is the way to go. Being San Diego you will be doing a lot of racing with Cal Club, I am your contact within Cal Club for big bore open wheel so if you need anything give me a call. May also suggest DFR (Dave Freitas Racing) as good shop. He is located in Fullerton and can be reached at 714-738-3068.

My number is
818.802.1876
e-mail f2kracer@yahoo.com

[Tom Johnson]

Hi David:

I agree with Marshall, the Zetec car would be pretty hard to beat. That's what I'm buying for next year. However, even though you have been through schools & time trials these cars could be quite a handful. Have you raced shifter karts? These cars are just about as lively.

Also, how handy are you? There are a lot of adjustments in a FC, and if you are someone who is more accustomed to having a steering wheel in his hands than a wrench, the array of changes you can make could be daunting. And it would be pretty easy to get one of these cars dialed out of the ballpark to the point it wouldn't be fun to drive.

I would also seriously consider the new spec formula car. I believe this package will really be a fun car to drive, and I bet a lot of prep shops will pick up on this the way they did for Formula Mazda, so you may be able to do an "arrive and drive", which IMHO is the most cost-effective way to go racing...

In any case, welcome! You'll find the FC guys are hardnose racers, but really decent fellas.

[Purple Frog]

You knew I would jump in...

Go back in this "Getting Started" forum to Oct. 03, 2002, there is a thread called "Brand new, throw everything you know at me". Read that.

There sometimes is a difference between what we want to do and what we can afford to do. But... your mention of PCA makes me think maybe you can afford a Zetec. But as a starter car... hum... that may be like deciding to go snow skiing for the first time and jumping on the lift to the top of a double black diamond slope with a pair of 215 cm skis...

[BrooksHall]

Frog brings up a good point. You might want to give DFR a call they have rentals available and Dave is a good honest guy to deal with. DFR also offers arrive and drives so that might be an option for you also. Landmark Motorsport is another good shop and they are located in South Orange County they also have arrive and drive programs for F/C F/A and S2000. Again if you need any help feel free to give me a call.

[David J. Marguglio]

I appreciate the responses and especially the endorsement of DFR; I was up at his shop yesterday looking at his 98 VD that is for sale. Anyone have thoughts on that particular car?

I am very mechanically inclined, but have no experience with these cars, so that would be a long learning curve for me to become my own wrench. I would prefer to have someone else do that for me DFR, Sandy Dells, etc. However, obviously the less maintenance the more racing, ergo is there a value in a spec car like enterprises or FranAm?

Tom, I assume you are referring to the SCCA Enterprises car spec car. If so, what is the consensus on this car and program? I don’t like is that it is currently an unknown and that it won’t be available until March or April.

Has anyone looked into the FranAm cars? They seem like a hell of a car for the $29k complete (engine, tires, shipping, etc. included) that they want for them.

At present, my specific plan and objectives are as follows: (please jump in with opinions or belly laughs as the case may be)

1. In the next few weeks - purchase a car for less that $30k (that is all I have budgeted for the car at this point). I guess that rules out the Zetec, right?
2. Do a couple of test days at Willow.
3. Attend Skip or Daly around Dec/Jan.
4. Race five to six races next year on a regional level (around $1,500 per weekend minimum right?) augmented by test days.
5. Increase the number of races and/or step to national level as I progress.

Is it possible to do this for $10-15k per year? Or am I sadly delusional?

[BrooksHall]

David I think your goals are reachable, crash damage may be the only thing that would increase your budget. Since you've ruled out a Ztec let me vouch for that 98 at DFR. This is one of the cleanest best prepared cars on the west coast, you would be hard pressed to find a better car for the money.

The only downside to buying into one of the spec cars, Enterprises or FranAm, is going to be the lack of cars to race with. Right now I don't know of any FranAm cars and it may be a few years untill the Enterprise car has any decent run groups. As for your learning curve Dave is a patient and knowlageble wrench and will help you as much as you might need.

[size="1"][ October 24, 2002, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

[Tom Johnson]

No, your budget isn't out of reach at all. Especially if you don't mind running on take-off tires which should do you just fine for your first regional season. In Regionals you can win on used tires.

For your quoted less than $30k for a car, I would probably go for the spec car or a used late-model VD. Even if the Zetec makes it into FC next year (and it just might), I suspect it will be restricted enough that Pintos will still dominate.

[Tim T.]

I have a friend in San Diego who races open wheel FF and is an excellent mechanic and set-up man as well. He's always looking for other other open wheel or S2 track buddies. If you are interested in talking with him, either before or after you get a car, please email me and I will give you his contact numbers.

Personally, for two years or so, I'd go with a cheap CFC, or FC with a great spares package. Get in cheap <15K, learn what you need to be competitive. In two years sell it for basically what you have in it and move on with now, your vastly improved knowledge and talent of everything open wheel.

Buy a new car, and you'd better have thousands in reserves for the 100+ things you will need to buy before the car makes it to the track it's first time. Then, thousands more for the all the extra do-dads, that will start to nickle and dime you to death without a good spares package.

Tim Tullio
ttullio@woh.rr.com

[KramoRacing]

David - I agree with Tim T. that you'll gain plenty of valuable experience and leave a lot more in your bank account if you start with a little older car. Your original post stated that you're looking for a car that will hold its value. By definition, I think you'l only find that in a car that's already lost a fair amount of its (dollar) value. Education value is another matter and if you subscribe to the 90/10 rule (driver/car impact on speed and finishing position), you already know why.

As to starting out in FC as opposed to a more traditional starter class, I think jumping in the "deep end" works OK as long as you're REALLY paying attention to what's going on (as in your mirrors). I agree with the others, though, that a Zetec, besides the cost, is probably too deep a dive.

I drive a '93 VanDiemen and it was (is) my first race car. I've only gotten two reasonable seasons in during the three years I've been at it - total of about a dozen races, several school weekends and a few test days. It sounds like you're able to plan more track time and be able to focus mostly on driving. You're fortunate in that but you'll still find the learning curve is very steep. That's OK too, because it's fun to make good progress quickly - especially if you remember it's mostly because you've got so far to go.

[Tom Johnson]

David, if you can afford it, go for a 98+ VD that will accept a Zetec retrofit. The Zetec will be coming to club racing sooner than most guys realize. Don't restrict yourself to a car that can only run a Pinto.

Or, you can avoid the Zetec/Pinto quandry altogether and get a Spec Car. Let us shake our own mess out for a year or two then come join us on the dark side!

[Skunk Butt]

Hi Fellow Racer,
Sounds like you have given this alote of consideration.....GO with a FC Car!!!!
If I was you I would buy that '98 VD that is for sale in your area.98 and newer are more competitive since they have longer wheel base.

Remember it is a buyer market, so you can probably get a good deal on that '98VD.
Sounds like it is in nice shape!!!
Find out how much time since motor and gear box was last freshened????But the best thing is that the race shop can help with the learning process of maintaining and setting up car correctly.
Also, if you can afford a '98 VD or newer it is the way to go.Check SCCA National race results.

Race regionals for two years and based on those results....move up to faster national level.

Another option is to buy a '90 to '95 VD for less then 15K with nice spare package....
Race it and sell the car in 2 years....when you have the seat time and skill set to handle a faster car.
Good Luck!!!!

[David J. Marguglio]

Well, I called DFR today to tell him that I wanted to purchase his 98VD only to find that it is no longer for sale (he worked a deal to race it again next season). So, I am back to square one. Is anyone aware of any 98 or newer VD's out there for sale? Perhaps even older if it were in great shape. Besides this site, what other sites are good sources for classifieds? Thanks for your help.

[size="1"][ October 31, 2002, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: David J. Marguglio ][/size]

[DaveW]

How about Steve Thomson's 99 VD in the for sale section?

[size="1"][ October 31, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: DaveW ][/size]

[Chris Lorenz]

did you look at SR racing's 98 VD. it is real nice.
he posted a ad on this site Sr web page

[reset1]

I believe there are 9 or 10 1600 fran-am cars already on the west coast, and youmay want to contact fran-am directly to get a reference and to see cars in person. I watched them race in Las Vegas and was impressed.

[Skunk Butt]

Hi David,
Thomson car '99VD is a very competitive car....and listed on this web site.
It is a proven winner!!!At a very good price!!!

Also, check out a 2000VD with update suspension with 2 motors ...and nice spares package....may still be available....
Car posted on..."The Racer Net" .....SCCA web site posted 9/19/02.
That car is located in CA area....I don't know if close to you???
831-646-1971 asking $33K.....Remember it is a buyers market ....so you could get a good deal right now on most used VD's....
Track support is also important to help with learning process.
Good Luck!!!
Take Care,Skunk

[Rob Hogenmiller]

David,

Sounds like you've done some research. If I was in your shoes (thinking like I would be). I'd go with the 97 or later FC car (non-Zetec). Although the Fran-Am 1600 sounds like it could be a good buy for your geographical racing area.

Sounds like you'd like to race on a budget. If you go non Zetec your engine is going to be less expensive in my opinion. One concern I have (that is purely intuition on my part) is that the Zetec looks as though it will be engine phased by Ford over time although the Pinto has been too and it still remains around.

I really liked Tom Johnson's idea of finding a car that can fit the Zetec a little better than other chassis.

Does the Fran-Am 1600 come with Data Logging system for that price too? I haven't had the chance to look at the construction of the 1600, but know I was impressed with the constructin of the 2000, really easy for a new driver to work on it and make adjustments. I especially liked the detailed manual they give you with the car.

[size="1"][ November 03, 2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Rob Hogenmiller ][/size]

[David J. Marguglio]

Clearly the FranAm is a superior car from a technology standpoint, that is not really the issue. The issue, as many of you have already stated, is that it is unclear what the fate of the FranAm will be and I don’t want to run by myself. In light of that, I am leaning toward FC. Many of you have sent very helpful emails and I would like to thank you for all of your input. One of the reoccurring pearls is that this is a buyer’s market. Define that; exactly how much does that affect the final prices of these cars? I realize it depends on the seller, but what a fair price in this market for a 98VD in decent shape with a reasonable spares package? I have seen it range from $20-$32K.

Also, given my complete lack of experience, how do I go about evaluating the conditions of these cars pre-purchase (especially cars on the other side of the country)? Are there people that I can send to the car for an inspection? What is the cost of shipping a container cross-country and who does that?

By the way, to answer Rob’s question, the FranAm has a very impressive data acquisition unit available (the car is pre-wired) for $3,500.

[Jtovo]

If you find a car on the other side of the country or even a really long drive. Ask around. I have looked at cars for people and have had others from this site look at cars for me. This is a small world and I would trust 98% of the feedback you get as true.

[Purple Frog]

Joe could answer better because he is in the freight business, but on this site over the last two years we've seen guys ship cross country for about $1,200.
Lots of folks are willing to help with inspections, and some even charge for the service.

If I was on the left coast I would buy El Gaupo's car if it is still up for sale.

[BrooksHall]

David DFR's (El Guapo's) 98 VD is great example of a "buyers market". The price of that car started at 28k and came down to 22k where it made more sense for Dave to keep the car than to sell it. That car is worth 25-28k no problem but the market is fat with cars for sale. For 22k I told him I'd buy it that price was a steal. Having said that I think the market is nearing it's bottom, especially for the 98 and later cars. Rollers will be the best bet as most people are looking to go to the Ztec and ditch the pinto motors. Of course we CFC guys will continue with pinto power and soon become the FProd midget drivers of open wheel.

[size="1"][ November 05, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: BrooksHall ][/size]

[sarrcford]

David,

Here is another idea. Wait another 5-6 months. You probably wouldn't miss much racing anyway. The formula racing car market will probably be volatile for at least the next year as cars, prices, schedules and participation numbers sort themselves out. It is probably safe to say that used cars can only get cheaper in the near future.

Rob Poma

[carnut169]

David-
I can't really answer any of your questions but it is nice to hear that someone is in the same boat as me .... 911 DE guy going into real racing.
I purchased a 96 Ex pro series car without a log book or spares. The car is in fair shape, but it was cheap. I am buying spares now (see the wanted list) and plan to race with the same budget as you...
Just read your post and wanted to wish you good luck!

[Purple Frog]

David,

I know this will start something. [img]smile.gif[/img]
But Seriously... have you looked into FM or Star Mazda??

Being on the left coast you should at least talk to Mark Rodrigues 818-686-3355, or J Z Racing 561-371-6892.

There are a lot of arrive and drives. You could test the waters, maybe even this year. And it is a going series especially in the west. ZOOM ZOOM Zoom.

[BrooksHall]

David that isn't such a bad idea. If you want I can put you in touch with Tom Moore he rents Mazda's and is very nice guy. I bought my first FF from Tom and he is first class guy with very clean equipment.

[Thomas Copeland]

Dave here are your choices: (I think these prices are correct or at least close...from least expensive to most expensive).

New Car-complete with engine ready to run

SCCA Spec Racer : $26,950+
Fram Am 1600 : $29,500+
2003 F2000 with Zetec: $39,500+
Fran Am 2000 : $42,500+
2004 Star Madza : $66,500+ (owch!)

Used Car-complete with engine and depending on condition of car and with at least some spares.

95-97 F2000 Van Dieman : $13,000-$18,000 (don't pay anything more than $18,000)*
98-99 F2000 Van Dieman : $18,000-$26,000 (don't pay anything more than $26,000)*
01-02 F2000 Van Dieman : $22,000-$32,000 (don't pay anything more than $32,000)*

*This doesn't include any large spares package that might come with the car.

If I were looking at any price over $29,000 I would seriously consider saving up some more and buying a new 2003 F2000 for $39,000 instead.

Your typical used FM is between $18,000 and $35,000 depending on what gismos, gadgets, and whatever are attached and the age/condition of the car. Expect these prices to come down dramatical during the next year.

Watch out on some of these racing team rentals. Some of them can cost as much as $12,000 for a SCCA National weekend. (I've seen them advertised for that much). The most you should pay for any weekend at the National/Regional level is $2800. Anything more and you are getting taken to the cleaners. Don't be conned by the explanation that you need fancy data logging, color print-outs, and 12 engineers. Not at that level. One dedicated mechanic should do. (This is of course my take on it. You can spend whatever you think the value is).

Every one of these cars and the series they run have pros/cons assiocated with them. You have to decide for youself which one serves your racing needs and presents the least amount of risk for your investment. As to which car will best retain it's value, I don't think anyone can really answer that question. Not with the race car market in this flux like it is. Alot of us wish we had the hard and fast answer to that one.

Best place to get info on racing in your region is from the drivers that are actively involved. Almost all of them will be forthcoming with any info you need.

Good luck. I hope this helps. And I hope I got it all coorect. And whatever budget you got calculated better X that by at least a factor of 3. Just to be safe.

[size="1"][ November 08, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: TEC ][/size]