Sequential Gearboxes

[Purple Frog]

In a meeting with all the known current FC chassis manufacturers there was a lengthy discussion about the lack of available LD200 gearboxes needed to supply new FC chassis, or broken existing cases. Hewland seems not interested in building anymore, and the new ones available are being hoarded by those that have them (can't blame them). Thus if you aren't building a car for USF2000 it is basically impossible to get a new LD200.

FC guys are now actively encouraging their friends to convert to FB, just so they can buy the freed up LD200.

Others are shopping for used boxes in Europe.

Some chassis builders are already investigating the available Hewland sequential box for fit (it fits with a new hub), and pickup point placement (the pickup points are different).

What was interesting was while chassis builders can be pretty protective of rules governing their chassis, it was like a 60s lovefest with the idea of letting sequential boxes in.

One of the main arguments for was that they are already in other SCCA classes,
they are in street cars,
the Hewland sequential box is stiffer,
they have a wiz factor for new blood,
etc., etc.

If proposed in the future, it would probably carry a 25# weight penalty (as in FA).

Many say there is really no big advantage. Because getting from 5th to 1st coming into Canada is a time consuming process, as the driver has to row through each gear, while with an H box he/she could go straight from 4th to 1st. (ed note: Oh did i write 5th to 1st? i meant to write 6th to 1st )

That argument was all well and good, until this morning I read that the FB guys are now spending upwards of $6,000 for sequential shifters.

What i found ironic, was some seemed dug in to prevent possible chassis cost escalation, but seemed to care less if gearboxes started costing a ton.

OBTW, i must say that while the majority of the constructors like the sequential idea, everybody realizes there will be a massive scream coming out of the membership if proposed... except those members that need a new case, and can't buy one.

[Rick Kirchner]

Supplier issues notwithstanding, a question that needs to be asked is "what effect will it have on our racing?"

In a discussion about lack of passing in F1, a distinguished designer pointed out that the culprits behind lack of passing were not aero but carbon brakes (for making it nearly impossible to out-brake someone) and sequential gearboxes (because it's much harder to make a mistake by missing a gear).

From what I've seen of discussion on this board over the years it also appears that the sequential mechanisms are pretty fragile (although that's a problem that eventually gets solved).

One pro is that a sequential makes life easier for the engine. Cosworth had problems ripping the pins out of the 2.3l Atlantic motor in development, but not in use. One of the reasons was that the sequential makes it harder to grab 1st when you wanted 3rd. With a rev limiter and less opportunity for wheel-driven overruns, the engine is happier.

If hewland doesn't want to build the LD-200, is their solution for FF the JFR? Seems like a lot of overkill for that HP level. Seems that without a conversion kit, sequential will also bring at least 5 speeds and maybe six.

The irony of the "back to the future" rules clarification combined with a discussion on sequential geaboxes is an interesting development.

[RobLav]

In my view, another silly argument about lack of suppliers causing justification for upping the ante in FC. Besides Hewland, there are at least two other manufacturers - Taylor is making one now and the older Staffs design is being built by another company (I forget offhand which).

No way/no how to sequential in FC.

[R. Pare]

The irony of the "back to the future" rules clarification combined with a discussion on sequential geaboxes is an interesting development.

Not really - Gomberg tried to limit discussion (with a couple of diversions) to 3 specific topics, with the sequential boxes being an add-on.

Most manufacturers realize that the time is coming when H-patterns will just not be available any more - especially after the Brits enact sequentials sometime soon, with the rest of the world following - and have been aware of the coming problem for quite a few years.

The resistance is primarily the escallation of costs up front to build a car, and the fact that a lot still believe that newbies need to learn how to shift as part of their basic training.

Discussion also came about that maybe the FFs would be limited to 4 ratios, and the FCs to 5, assuming the proper conversion kits are available.

However, all seem to realize that a change is inevitable, but also want to make sure that current cars are not obsoleted by the change - something that the British contingent doesn't understand, but is a reality over here.

[R. Pare]

Besides Hewland, there are at least two other manufacturers - Taylor is making one now and the older Staffs design is being built by another company (I forget offhand which).

Don't know about the Taylor, but the Elite (the old Staffs) is supposedly a real turd.

[Paul LeCain]

I've used these in FA for over 20 years. They're actually pretty good boxes if you treat them sanely - small package, light, easy to work on.

You have to realize, though, that they're stressed quite a lot. They use smallish MK5 gears. You have to check them carefully at least every weekend if not every day.

The original R&Ps were really junk, maybe good for one race. EMCO made (makes?) replacements. Hewland and Elite also make them now. All are worlds better than the originals.

So, my take is that if you treat it as you would any highly-stressed box, it's pretty good.

[R. Pare]

Being the original importer and distributor of the Staffs, I'm well aware of the Real Staffs quality ( and sometimes the lack thereof). The issue isn't the real Staffs, but the current manufacturers quality control, which from what I've been hearings, isn't good at all.

[SOseth]

I spoke with John Grubb who has more than a casual relationship with Hewland about the probability that Hewland is no longer interested in making the LD 200. He said that he didn't believe that to be the case as it remains their only small car gearbox.

I for one don't see a need now to consider allowing sequential gearboxs at this time

SteveO

[Purple Frog]

Steve,

Maybe you know, and can set us all straight. Where do we go to purchase 10 new ones?

Richard thinks they are coming to the end of their life, as is O'Leary.

Maybe a name and U.S. phone number, and I'll run with it from there, and report back what i find.

I heard one vendor at the Runoffs talking about building a replacement case that LD200 internals will fit into...

[R. Pare]

I heard one vendor at the Runoffs talking about building a replacement case that LD200 internals will fit into...


If true, that would certainly be welcomed by all the guys who currently have LD200s, as well as help for new cars during the transition IF the LD actually goes out of production sometime soon.

[SOseth]

Steve,

Maybe you know, and can set us all straight. Where do we go to purchase 10 new ones?

Richard thinks they are coming to the end of their life, as is O'Leary.

Maybe a name and U.S. phone number, and I'll run with it from there, and report back what i find.

I heard one vendor at the Runoffs talking about building a replacement case that LD200 internals will fit into...

Can't set anyone straight, all I did was pick up the phone and talked with John. Perhaps Hewland is doing what most manufacterers are doing these days and keeping inventorys to a minimum.

SteveO

[Jtovo]

It will kill the class.

LOL!

[cooleyjb]

Does someone make a 4 speed sequential? Are the 5 speeds able to be converted to a 4 speed?

[Art Smith]

new/never been used Hewland LD-200 for sale, $7500 plus shipping from 93555. there's only one but it's available for immediate shipment...........

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[mousecatcher]

In a discussion about lack of passing in F1, a distinguished designer pointed out that the culprits behind lack of passing were not aero but carbon brakes (for making it nearly impossible to out-brake someone) and sequential gearboxes (because it's much harder to make a mistake by missing a gear).

The carbon brakes are actually for weight savings, not improved braking performance (which is limited by the grip [tires+aero]). The gearboxes, I agree, make the driving easier. You know, because taking a sustained 5G corner is just a day at the office.

That's F1 though. I highly doubt sequential gearboxes and paddle shifters, in any of the SCCA classes that allow it, are a detriment to passing.

[Phil Creighton]

I think Froggie is over reacting on this one. During the meeting it was brought up that the LD may not have a long future - not that it is unavailable. If Europe goes sequential in the junior formula it will put pressure on Hewland to scale back or drop the LD from regular production. Some discussion ensued as to alternatives and numbers of speeds. This is not an issue, not up for a vote just a number of manufacturers telling the SCCA their side of FF and FC production issues.
There was a fair bit of input on the chassis rules cleanup/rewrite.

No decisions were made (or were supposed to be made). It was to share ideas on FC and FF and their future with the Club from the manufacturers perspective.

Phil

[carl correll]

Taylor is not and has no interest in building this type of gearbox. The LD200 is alive and well. The economy sucks and we, Hewland, Tilton, Haas, and everybody else is keeping inventories 40% below past levels. We can get parts and kits from the UK. It does take planning. Folks like Piper arrange for the gearboxes that they need ahead of time. Joe Blogs can't pick up the phone and have one tomorrow, neither can we.

A sequential four speed is really a waste of time in my opinion.

[RobLav]

Yes, I made a mistake in a previous post. The Taylor transmission is an inline version.

[nulrich]

I think there are three separate issues here:

- LD200 gearboxes are not easily available, especially if you need one quickly. There are a few used boxes available, and with enough lead time you can get new ones, so it's less an issue for constructors than for car owners.

- The LD200 is an old design, and with today's tires and grip levels the case is not as stiff as it should be. We've addressed that in our car by adding reinforcement, and we have another solution we might implement in the long term, but all the newer, stiffer Hewland boxes are sequential. (The geartrain also has some weaknesses at higher power levels, but WRD has solved that problem.)

- Younger drivers (and some older ones ) are attracted to sequential shifting as a modern and "whizzy" feature. Whether it is actually faster without electronic shift aids is debatable.

I didn't hear anyone suggest sequential gearboxes in FF/FC anytime soon, but the general consensus was that eventually we'll need to consider a change. Most of the debate was about how to handle a transition, and whether a move to five speeds (or six) could happen without upsetting the stability of the classes.

Nathan

[carl correll]

True, the LD, (LIGHT DUTY) 200 maincase is not terribly robust. Before spooking the herd with conversion talk, I'd suggest doing what constructors have done before, even in FF and F2000: put the Hewland internals in a maincase of your own design.

I love wizzy as much as anyone. And gearing for tracks with a long straight and chicane is no fun with only four ratios, but talk of converting these classes to sequential 5 speeds will bring a torch and pitchfork bearing hoard to your gate.

[kea]

Hewland is no longer making the LD5-200, five speed version, notthe four speed Frog.

[Reddog]

True, the LD, (LIGHT DUTY) 200 maincase is not terribly robust.

I do not have experence with the 200, but will have to buy one for the next car...
the 160 lb torque rating aside what breaks and why?

I'd suggest doing what constructors have done before, even in FF and F2000: put the Hewland internals in a maincase of your own design.

PS.
NEVERMIND...the answer to my question was there....

[carl correll]

They don't break. They are an excellent little piece. The maincase is can take plenty of suspension loading, but I figure the limit may be a bit below what constructors would like these days. The maincase can get distorted from heavy crash loads, and it's pretty easy to punch out the right stub axle bearing in a direct hit on the axle end. This broaches the bearing bore to the point of being junk.

[Reddog]

They don't break

Dear OVZ [Old Vine Zinfandel] thanks...as far as loads, if one were to make a case, why not extend the "slab" plates to the rear on the left, side, and bore a hole through the right, to mount the side cover...or better yet side covers on both sides, perhaps VW transporter plates could be modified if I'm not wrong...if one had a machine shop [me]

[carl correll]

Two sideplates will make the structure issues worse. Much worse. All this stuff is now done by Boffins in front of computer screens. They know what's best. For them.

[Reddog]

Two sideplates will make the structure issues worse. Much worse. All this stuff is now done by Boffins in front of computer screens. They know what's best. For them


Perhaps I didn't explain the "sandwich" plates properly...forget it, I'll just do it....thanks for your input