By the time I graduate from college in the spring, I plan on moving up from just doing autocrosses to going to some racing schools and then on to more serious racing(formula continental if I can). Firstly can you guys give me an idea what kind of car would be competetive and at what price? And what would the running costs be like for a fairly serious effort. Anything else you think I should know would be appreciated.
Brian F
I'll beat Frog to it this time. Brian, the first thing you should do if you don't already have one, is get yourself a membership in the SCCA. With that, you will get SportCar, their monthly magazine. Their classifieds, as well as the ones here, will give you a real good idea of the market prices for different cars and parts. Watch the ones that make cameo appearances, and the ones that live in the classifieds, and deduce your own market values based on their ability to sell.
Second, go back in the "Days Viewable" drop-down in this particular forum, and view back as far as it will let you. There are a TON of great threads about this very subject in here. You should be able to generate a lot of information from the guys that have already gone through your exact same steps.
One suggestion, and I'm sure most will back me up on this, is that once you figure out your budget for racing, reside to the fact that it will almost always double once you are in it. If you think you can afford $15,000 a year to race, it will probably end up costing you $30,000 to do what you feel comforatble with. Always overestimate your expenses. It's racing, you can never have too much money.
-doug
[size="1"][ October 03, 2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Doug Carter ][/size]
By glancing at you member number, I can assume you have not even read all my too-numerous posts much less the thousands of really informative ones that are archived on this site.
There is a tool up in the right hand corner of any forum that allows you to change how far back you are looking. Go back at least one year.
Warning, this is a lot of reading. But well worth it. The strength of this site is that legitimate champions post and deliver much valuable information. Much of what is posted here for easy access used to be available only through years and years of experience.
I'll take a wildass stab at the cost question.
Figure to race the pro zetec series you should have at least $125,000 set aside for the year. You will probably run out of cash with about two races left on the calendar.
To compete (with any chance of winning) for the national champioship in SCCA in Formula Continental you will need to spend about $35k to $45K for a car and spares, and spend probably $25K to $30K on the season.
To win consistantly in regional SCCA FC, you may be able to spend a bit less on the car ($30K ?) and figure roughly $2,000 per weekend.
To win a Club Continental divisional championship, you probably start with a $10K to $15K car and spend $2,000 per weekend.
To just race strongly in FC in regional races, figure on a $16K - $20K car and slightly more than $1,000 per weekend.
To run strongly in Club Continental, start with a $8k to $13K car and budget an average of $1,000 per weekend. In otherwords if you hope to race ten times in 2003, have $10,000 in the plan after you have a running car and driver's gear.
The one thing I didn't calulate in all those SCCA costs was how crazy you might get in purchasing a hauler and trailer. A lot of FC guys have $50k to $100K tied up in infrastructure to haul the car to the track. Some, such as one multi-time national champ, may have only $15K in the whole hauler-trailer combo.
Now that I've written all this, lots of folks will jump on and say they are doing it for less. Yes, it does cost less after you have been doing it for a few years. And I'll admit they are round numbers. But they are real. I'm including lodging, hauler fuel, average crash damage, engine refreshes, etc. My spreadsheet goes back 5 years and includes everything down to nickel and dime stuff.
Be honest with yourself with the budget planning, and jump in at the level you can really afford.
This sport can be real addicting just like serious drugs. I've seen it ruin many a marriage, lives, and bank books. Have fun.
Doug!
I'm slipping. We eat lunch earlier here on the right coast. I can see one benefit of your recent employment situation... you'll be lurking much more often.
One other thing to add to Froggies post. When I left karting to comeback to big cars I had to rebiuld my "car" infrastructure. I also had to rebuild the motor in the car that I puchased this ate up a lot of my "racing" budget. So I just raced less this season. Next year I'll race a few more events and so on and so on. Like he said be realistic and budget what you can and race when you can. I feel that even though I only got six events in this season (as opposed to 20 shifterkart races last year) I had a ball. You can also be involved by volunteering in region to hold you over untill you can race again. You will get a whole different view of corner when you work one!
Michael Hall
Got a job
Race a bike
Cal Club
Thanks for all the advice guys. The cost are slightly more than i was prepared for, guess thats why ya ask in the first place. I have always been in love with open wheel racing, should I consider a different form to start in. Or maybe stay with my original idea of doing Improved Touring racing. I've made no commitments as to what form of racing i do, just that i will be doing some form of racing. Let me here what you think.
Brian
You might want to consider shifter karts. I improved so much more in 4 years of shifter kart racing than in the previous 10 years combined. As for IT believe me because I drove IT cars for years they are a lot more expensive than you might think. A good ITA/S car is about the same price as a good Club Continental and more than a good Club or Spec Ford. They are a ton slower and a whole lot less sexy! Shifter karts are a great training ground and can be done for a lot less, mostly because of the infrastructure can be hauled around in the back of P/U.
Also you don't have to do it all at once. That's why I suggested getting into it step by step. If next season all you can do is a couple of events then do that and do a few more in '04 etc. The numbers Frog posted would be to go the track "done" with all the goodies. A lot of what you will need to go racing should come in the package that you purchased. It can be done for less but you might have to take smaller steps but you will eventually get where you want to be.
Michael Hall
Got a job
Race a bike
Cal Club
Brian,
There are hundreds (maybe thousands ?) of racecars sitting and gathering dust in garages all over the country that belong to folks who didn't do the math early on. Many mistakenly believe that the purchase price of the car itself is the biggest item. So they think that once they save up enough to buy the car (or heaven forbid, borrow enough) they are good to go. In reality they are good to go alright... good to go downstairs and look at it.
We want as many formula car drivers as we can encourage to join up, but I think it would be a diservice to not be up front and real about the costs.
Unfortunately many can't afford to jump in until their careers and/or families are well established.
Good luck in your pursuit. But given the choice, I'd rather race a formula car 4 times a year than an IT car 9 times a year. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Brian, FWIW, here's what I would do if I was young and smart:
Year 1:
Go race Yamaha class at a local kart track for a year. $1500 should get you a good used setup and you'll spend $160 every few weekends for tires if there's a spec rule at the track. This kart will teach you about conservation of energy and smoothness, plus you'll probably have big fields with at least a few really good drivers.
Year 2-4
Buy a good used 125 shifter. You should be able to get one turnkey for $4500 and upkeep is minimal. This kart will teach you about power, shifting, and respect for going fast. The fields will be smaller, but the purpose here is to learn. Save your shekels for the next level.
Year 5-?
Get a good CFC, like a Reynard. Solid car, will teach you handling, setup, and some aero. Frog's numbers seem reasonable. Progress from here if you can/want to.
One thing I want to stress. Race because you love it. And that means if you can afford to be the best driver you can in go-karts, then do that. Don't do what most guys do, race beyond their means. This is a sure path to heartbreak.
Trust me, the only guys who look down their noses at really good kart guys are a)rich snobs, or b)have forgotten that's where they learned their craft! There is no shame in racing what you can afford.
The only thing I ask is to please not race *shudder* IT cars.
You know you're old when all your driving heros are collecting Social Security...
www.f500.org
They're two strokes, but they're fast. You'll get accustomed to the distinct engine sound and will revell in the smell of two-stroke oil.
You can get a pretty decent used car from $8,000-12,000. You can spend more or less. The more recent the car, the closer to a Formula Ford time you're car will be capable of. (They hate to hear that and I'm not inciting a riot. I won't even respond to the flogging I might take for saying that!)
The per race cost is anywhere from $300 to over $1000 per race depending on how crazy you get with tires, hotels, and wrecking. I'm at the $300 per race level, but can run within a second or two of some Ford's that race at the same track. Plus, they're more than go-karts. They don't have traditional shocks/springs or transmissions, but they really move. The really cool part is, most of my tools, trailer, truck and gear will be usefull when I cross over to FC.
Don't beat up on me too hard guys, I really am coming to play with the big boys sometime in the next few years!
Brian,
I agree with Mike about the kart route. There is, however, another way to go racing in a FC, and still stay within your budget. Rent. I suggest going to some club races in your area so you can get to know who the players are. You could rent a FC for two or three weekends a year without having to spend five fortunes. You will have no investment in race car, truck, trailer, tools, pit equipment etc. of course, you will also have nothing to show for the money you do spend except for some memories, and perhaps a few pictures and any trophies you may win. Renting often makes sense in the beginning even if you do plan on buying a car. It allows you to get a taste of the cars before making a major committment. Other than that, karting is a great way to get the skills plus have some fun. Good luck in whatever you do.
EG
The F500 sounds like a decent option. What I would like to know is what is the process involoved in renting a Car at a club event as was suggested. What would the cost be like(per weekend)? Would these cars be competetive? And where do i get more information about it/ who do I contact?
Brian
Brian,
Hard Rock Motorsport and 10/TENTHS are planning on making at least one CFC car available for rental in the 2003 season. Both for drivers schools and race weekends. Try to find someone in your region that offers the same. Going to the tracks on race weekends is a great way to do it. You can usually find someone, see the car and watch it race at the same time.
Costs will probably vary. We are looking at a range from $1200 - $1500 per weekend for the car and basic support. Of course, costs will vary if the driver wants more.
Let us know where are you located. Maybe someone on this site will see your post and contact you.
Peace
Peace
HardRock Motorsport
Im from New Jersey.
Brian
If you are looking for F500 info in the NE, two good sources are:
Elivan Goulart in Shelton CT
Michael Brent in Bethel CT
or look up BCBackwoods in our members list. He knows a lot of F500 guys.
Brian,
If it's an F500 that you were referring to, Mike Quadrini is based out of New York. Mike makes the QRE Invader that won the Runoffs the past two years. I'm pretty sure he rents them and would be willing to help out. He just announced yesterday that he plans to sell his cars in kit form which will help with cost if new is the route you would like to go. Follow the above link to the 500 site and go to the suppliers page to get his phone number. He's usually in the shop in late afternoons as it's not his primary source of income. Otherwise the Novakar is built in CA, the Red Devil is somewhere in the mid-west, the Defender is Down in the middle of the country and the Sidewinder is out of Florida. To my knowledge, there's no private owners that are renting their rides.
Bob
PS - Elivan Goulart won the Runoff's the past two years as a "factory driver" for QRE.
[size="1"][ October 09, 2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: BCBackwoods ][/size]
Forgive me, and I mean no disrespect here, but isn't a F500 just about like driving a 250 I/CE kart without the shifting? I mean at Willowsprings we were turning lap times within 1.5s of an FC the F500's aren't that close.
Michael Hall
Got a job
Race a bike
Cal Club
Hey Brooks,
No appologies needed. I've never even seen a shifter cart run (but I'd like to someday). You guys that do that are a little left of center I think. Although, I hear they're fast as hell. An F500 will run within a second or two of Formula Fords for comparison purposes. F500 is just an option I'm throwing out. Although, we do have full roll cages and actually buckle in.
Bob Gebhardt
Novakar F500
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